EwingsGlass wrote:martin wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:I am not ready to commit to them being ready to move on from Mitch without salary requirements. He has done everything they have asked. Reduced his fouls. Put on weight. Boxed out. He put the team in front of his money. He took to a depreciating contract. He is an offensive rebounding force and it is clear that his defensive rebounding numbers are skewed lower because he boxes out for the team rebound. His offensive rebounding boosts the Knicks Points Per Possession by extending possessions. His box outs lower the opposing teams points per possessions by ending opponent's possessions at the miss. He can't shoot a lick, but he doesn't take shots.
Are there better centers? Sure. Are there healthier guys? Yeah. Would it surprise me if they did make a move? No. But they are no longer mathematically required to make a move. His biggest issue is that his shooting and FT% make him unavailable at the end of the game.
I'm not gonna beat on a guy that puts his body on the line for the Knicks every time. I want him to be healthy. If they have to make a move to be championship worthy, I get it. If it really makes sense, I get it.
In my head, all those conversations from the start of the Summer were about getting KAT where the Mini-Wolves didn't want to take back Robinson. Get them something better.
If you name a starting caliber PF that is available, healthy and fits this model system, I think the trade could occur. I'd pull the trigger on Herb Jones or Trey Murphy. But who can you get that will help us more against Embiid, Jokic and the star centers that make it to our court? If he is healty, who is better. If he not healthy, who is giving anything up for him? You want a Steve Adams or Timelord swap? Push at best, no?
Regarding the salary requirements: my base assumption is that Mitch, Deuce are the only major assets left that Knicks could move. Obviously any trade would have to fit that sized total(s).
After that, it's if you are comfortable of the idea of starting this season's championship run without Mitch today - ie, without all available pieces in play - or is it better both short and long term to start the championship run with something more fortified and worry about the obvious backup C spot differently.
There is a grand possibility that Mitch don't show up til like late Feb or March. If you can take hindsight into consideration and know that's the deal, do you act differently?
GS did not worry about the C spot or the backup C spot much at all in terms of their main playing style. Does Leon have that same notion?
I would agree Deuce and Robinson are the only current trade chips. I might include Hart only because the inclusion of DDV convinced me that no one is untouchable. So, if you told me they just traded Hart and Robinson for JJJ, I wouldn't be surprised.
For me, this is year 1 of a 4 year build. I think when you deplete a roster to starphuch, you might not have enough pieces to finish the same year. Some guys will fill the void from weird places.
I think this team has stuffed its coffers to have players to bring in when they don't have draft picks.
So, to make the push for THIS year, who are you getting that is better than the rest of Mitch's contract? I gave a short list above.
JJJ
H. Jones
T. Murphy
Eason
Kessler
(I will leave off Lyles, that's a style fit not a talent fit for what we have. He's a MLE kind of guy next year).
So, rather than defending my position the same way again and again, what trade would you make with Robinson that makes sense for both teams IF Robinson isn't back until February. And why would they make the deal now?
I am going to agree with you on everything you are saying. I'd like to help reword the bolded to see if we can look at it differently:
This is year 1 of a 4+ year championship run. I think the Knicks are at a very good starting point to launch that 4 year championship run. When you are in those moments, you think most about who is going to possibly be there for that full run - the core pieces - and make sure you have as many of them as you can NOW (or as close to it and as early as possible) and worry about the lesser important level items down the line some. You still want to compete this year for sure but years 2 to whatever are (a little) more important IF IF IF the opportunity presents itself.
If Mitch was 100%, we may not be having this conversation at all, because he would be a 4 year core piece. The Knicks and especially Thibs LOVE Deuce. He is nearly a core piece, and I only say nearly because of both his output and contract, and the "nearly" part is because his role is duplicative and easily covered (outside of a roster in injury-depleted situations). The PG/SG spot is thrice covered: Brunson, Cam, Kolek, Mikal, Hart, Shamet.
Only because Mitch has injury history AND because of Deuce's positional flexibility coverage would Leon ever consider trading those 2 guys. But also because of those reasons, it's almost like he HAS to because of the 1-4 year window. Leon certainly will not put himself in the position to be OUT of the first year window by depleting his roster, but he would rather favor fortifying for years 2-4 and beyond NOW (or sooner rather than later) rather than suffer from the downside risk of wherever and whenever Mitch will come back. And let's put it out there: there is an IF component to Mitch ever playing healthy again or at expected levels or for games for a season.
There is a super downside of not trading Mitch today if you can possibility get something back in his near trade value range (and yes, I admit that if he is healthy and playing in December these things are greased more easily). There is a distinct possibility Mitch is healthy for like a month and then done. And then what? Wouldn't you have rather traded him today instead of waiting on that injury news? The other side of the trade will have the same questions. For instance, let's take the Lakers. If they think they have a team that can make a finals run with a healthy Mitch at end of the year (they'll do their homework), they will absolutely grab him when they can, because LeBron has short timelines too. The market for Mitch (in this example) will be set by the Lakers and how desperate they are for a C with Beast-like capabilities.
The opposite is also true: Leon trades Mitch today and he goes to NO/Lakers and they have a beast sized Center who decimates the West for years and we don't.
That's Leon's decision point. And he is still shopping Mitch.
My guess at Leon's wish list: Trey and then Herb Jones or similar wing role with upside or a very well known production value. It'll be about what he has to give and how to do the trade. I will add: the backup center vet market for next year is going to be OK. Steven Adams, Brook Lopez, and lots of similar career level experienced guys who may just want a ring. But you do have to wait until the offseason.
