Nalod wrote:LOL, two of the three are reasonable.
The first to Detroit seems a bit pricy. Isiah Stewart is about Precious so I stay away.
Mitch still has two years on his deal so I give him time to recover and be a knick.

I like Deuce but Kessler is a good return. Same as Richards.

Im very relaxed Leon and Company got this over anything I have to say or other fans.

For you or Leon?

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:LOL, two of the three are reasonable.
The first to Detroit seems a bit pricy. Isiah Stewart is about Precious so I stay away.
Mitch still has two years on his deal so I give him time to recover and be a knick.

I like Deuce but Kessler is a good return. Same as Richards.

Im very relaxed Leon and Company got this over anything I have to say or other fans.

For you or Leon?

To me. Bu if Leon wants Isiah Stewart and thinks he can get us a chip, then go for it.

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:LOL, two of the three are reasonable.
The first to Detroit seems a bit pricy. Isiah Stewart is about Precious so I stay away.
Mitch still has two years on his deal so I give him time to recover and be a knick.

I like Deuce but Kessler is a good return. Same as Richards.

Im very relaxed Leon and Company got this over anything I have to say or other fans.

For you or Leon?

To me. Bu if Leon wants Isiah Stewart and thinks he can get us a chip, then go for it.

I don't know what to make of Leon's thought on what McBride's value may be. I think we may be underestimating that by a lot.

I don't think it's outlandish to say that Leon would never ever ever even put an iota of thought into a McBride, Mitch, first rounder for Isiah Stewart swap. IMHO that's Bleacher blogger level understanding of things. That's embarrassing.

Isiah Stewart 6'8 and not the most stellar rebounder and doesn't make a dent in his own team's winning prospects and Knicks are going to swap a potential first rounder; the player who absolutely tilted the Cavs series and who when healthy is one of the best rebounders, rim protectors in the league; AND a guy who just went full bonkers for a stretch that may not be career defining but sure puts his contract extension to shame and he did it as a 40 minute starter for a couple of weeks and also in the playoffs?

That's a suggested swap along with the one that includes Richards that the author admits up front is a bad idea.

In fact, they are all bad ideas IMHO. I don't know Kessler very well but he was not a starter, just played summer league and his FT shooting is only a tad better than Mitch and so far it looks like he is about as much of a spacer as Mitch has been. We can say Kessler's career has not yet been impactful, tanking team aside.

Deuce is much more of a sure thing. Proven? Eyes of the beholder. But he is on one of the best 3 year contracts in the NBA in terms of potential and what he has already given you at 24? You could possibly start a whole thread on that and maybe I will.

Good thread topic.
Deuce needs a bit more minutes at the level we last saw to validate a bit more. Im a fan.
I tend to agree the Stewart trade idea is a bit over the top but Kessler's upside and fit MIGHT be compelling and we need that.
Mitch WHEN healthy can carry us far and perhaps if his trade value is not great, we roll with him but we need a substantial back up. Simms is at 6-9 and we need a more height there. Edny and the giants can eat us up and we need the flexibility to counter.
NO secret to any of this.

The Bulls had Purdue, Wennington, Cartwright, and Rodman over those years. They had size and defensive chops when needed.

Maybe we roll small and see how it goes. Should be fun.
If Duece is the price to plug a need that gets us far, then its the price we pay.

How long did it take to convince OG to switch to CAA and Sam Rose as agent away from Clutch? I don't know all the inner workings there but it seems like plans were made long before they happened.

The Mikal thing was not a whim and things needed to be ironed out before they went down.

IMHO the center position situation will not be a whim maneuver. Leon had all summer to make a trade, or in the very least, probably a cool month building up to the Mitch announcement.

Maybe I'm dead wrong too.

martin wrote:To get Jalen Brunson, Leon hired his dad a long while before that all went down. Lots and lots of family and friends dinners.

How long did it take to convince OG to switch to CAA and Sam Rose as agent away from Clutch? I don't know all the inner workings there but it seems like plans were made long before they happened.

The Mikal thing was not a whim and things needed to be ironed out before they went down.

IMHO the center position situation will not be a whim maneuver. Leon had all summer to make a trade, or in the very least, probably a cool month building up to the Mitch announcement.

Maybe I'm dead wrong too.

Yes I agree, a lot of build up to all of these things. I’m keeping an eye on Walker Kessler because his name has been thrown around a lot and he’s CAA. Leon just needs time to work the back channels to get him over here. He doesn’t always get everyone he wants but seems like he can figure out a way when he’s locked in to a certain player. D Mitchell is the only exception. I know it’s an Ainge guy but I think he’s more likely to work with ainge than Toronto or Bk and he accomplished both of those. I see Kessler as a Knick maybe this year or next. I think he’s the target with the remaining assets and they will hold tight until that time comes, or something better along the way.

Stewart 15M
Robinson 14,318,182

Richardson 5M
Deuce 4,710,144

I have no idea what happens if you can start stacking minimum contracts or if you attach value to a trade in the form or a 2nd rd pick (cash). Or, even the rights to a draft stash. Whoever wrote these new rules is EVIL. They were clearly frustrated with the big market front running teams operating freely over the luxury tax

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

martin wrote:To get Jalen Brunson, Leon hired his dad a long while before that all went down. Lots and lots of family and friends dinners.

How long did it take to convince OG to switch to CAA and Sam Rose as agent away from Clutch? I don't know all the inner workings there but it seems like plans were made long before they happened.

The Mikal thing was not a whim and things needed to be ironed out before they went down.

IMHO the center position situation will not be a whim maneuver. Leon had all summer to make a trade, or in the very least, probably a cool month building up to the Mitch announcement.

Maybe I'm dead wrong too.

Yes I agree, a lot of build up to all of these things. I’m keeping an eye on Walker Kessler because his name has been thrown around a lot and he’s CAA. Leon just needs time to work the back channels to get him over here. He doesn’t always get everyone he wants but seems like he can figure out a way when he’s locked in to a certain player. D Mitchell is the only exception. I know it’s an Ainge guy but I think he’s more likely to work with ainge than Toronto or Bk and he accomplished both of those. I see Kessler as a Knick maybe this year or next. I think he’s the target with the remaining assets and they will hold tight until that time comes, or something better along the way.

Help me understand Kessler.

It seems like he is known for his rim protection. His FT% is not really that good and he does not shoot outside of the painted area. Kessler shot 60% from FT in college for 2 years as well as 2 years in Utah. He would be a late playoff game hack-a-thon or playoff targeted switch candidate?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kesslwa01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kesslwa01.html#all_shooting-playoffs_shooting
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kesslwa01.html#all_all_college_stats

How is his defense on the perimeter? Can he switch out to the 3 point line and not look like a baby giraffe when SF's or guards are on him?

If Kessler cannot be semi average and not look comfortable guarding out to the 3point line and his shooting after 2 years is non existent as a C, what is his upside and when does it hit cause Knicks need it today?

Martin, it's refreshing to see that you still believe in unicorns. He is a big man in the mold of Mitch. He's going to protect the rim, rebound and is very good in the p-n-r. He is extremely talented in a losing environment on a team with no identity and doesn't know if it's tanking or trying to be competitive. He is a fit on a Thibs coached team. He makes 2.9M this season and 4.8 next season and just turned 23 years old. At 7'-0" 245lbs he is a true big. There was a SL league game where Kessler matched up against Zach Eddy who is 7'-4" and 300lbs and it was a real battle. That's what you get with Kessler. After that game, his play dropped off. I don't think he really gave a crap after the Eden match up and was kind of pissed to have to be there with all the trade rumors swirling

martin wrote:

Rookie wrote:

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

martin wrote:To get Jalen Brunson, Leon hired his dad a long while before that all went down. Lots and lots of family and friends dinners.

How long did it take to convince OG to switch to CAA and Sam Rose as agent away from Clutch? I don't know all the inner workings there but it seems like plans were made long before they happened.

The Mikal thing was not a whim and things needed to be ironed out before they went down.

IMHO the center position situation will not be a whim maneuver. Leon had all summer to make a trade, or in the very least, probably a cool month building up to the Mitch announcement.

Maybe I'm dead wrong too.

Yes I agree, a lot of build up to all of these things. I’m keeping an eye on Walker Kessler because his name has been thrown around a lot and he’s CAA. Leon just needs time to work the back channels to get him over here. He doesn’t always get everyone he wants but seems like he can figure out a way when he’s locked in to a certain player. D Mitchell is the only exception. I know it’s an Ainge guy but I think he’s more likely to work with ainge than Toronto or Bk and he accomplished both of those. I see Kessler as a Knick maybe this year or next. I think he’s the target with the remaining assets and they will hold tight until that time comes, or something better along the way.

Help me understand Kessler.

It seems like he is known for his rim protection. His FT% is not really that good and he does not shoot outside of the painted area. Kessler shot 60% from FT in college for 2 years as well as 2 years in Utah. He would be a late playoff game hack-a-thon or playoff targeted switch candidate?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kesslwa01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kesslwa01.html#all_shooting-playoffs_shooting
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kesslwa01.html#all_all_college_stats

How is his defense on the perimeter? Can he switch out to the 3 point line and not look like a baby giraffe when SF's or guards are on him?

If Kessler cannot be semi average and not look comfortable guarding out to the 3point line and his shooting after 2 years is non existent as a C, what is his upside and when does it hit cause Knicks need it today?

Martin, it's refreshing to see that you still believe in unicorns. He is a big man in the mold of Mitch. He's going to protect the rim, rebound and is very good in the p-n-r. He is extremely talented in a losing environment on a team with no identity and doesn't know if it's tanking or trying to be competitive. He is a fit on a Thibs coached team. He makes 2.9M this season and 4.8 next season and just turned 23 years old. At 7'-0" 245lbs he is a true big. There was a SL league game where Kessler matched up against Zach Eddy who is 7'-4" and 300lbs and it was a real battle. That's what you get with Kessler. After that game, his play dropped off. I don't think he really gave a crap after the Eden match up and was kind of pissed to have to be there with all the trade rumors swirling

I don't know how much information we can get from Kessler guarding a rookie in SL? And then, how does he do against playoff level guys?

I wouldn't expect the Knicks to trade for a unicorn but I think the Knicks won't trade for an unknown quantity (or not enough of a *known* quantity) or pay more than they need to. What's fair exchange for Kessler? What's the adult trade and then what is Ainge's upcharge that Leon would be AOK with?

If Kessler does not solve playoff problems for the Knicks because of a certain flaw - above and beyond what he can do very well - is that worth it over and beyond what Leon can get for a similar level package? Maybe he is. I am asking because I do not know.

What's he like on the perimeter from a defensive perspective? It's the playoffs where he needs to be solid enough? That's my assumption.

My other assumption is the only realistic exchange the Knicks can make for Kessler is Deuce+? Maybe I don't have that right.

If Leon has other plans beyond Deuce/Kessler exchange, Deuce is the small'ish level contract that gets tacked on to a potential very big trade that is pulled off salary wise because of that cherry on top. Leon needs to hedge with Deuce; he is the one overlapping trade asset on the roster that has very good value IMHO, most of the firsts are gone or tied up or have very malleable value right now (ie, hard to quantify and negotiate with other side on... are they gonna be mid firsts eventually or not as fun seconds?).

It usually takes young players who have never been to playoffs a year or so to show up. Witness IQ, RJ, Grimes and most all young players. Various level young guys who took different times to find their flow in the regular season and then the playoffs.

Knicks cannot wait on Kessler to find out that he needs 2+ years of playoffs to find his footing if they already KNOW Deuce is almost at that point while on a 3 year descending near vet min deal? I'd guess this is the hedge part and why they haven't not made a trade for a C yet.

I don't know that he is the answer, just an option. He is available and fills a Knicks need. I have no idea how you can make a trade work or what we would have to give up, just that Ainge values unprotected picks or players he can flip for picks. Kessler is worth a FRP or a player but not both and certainly not 2 unprotected FRP's.

I do however like Kessler having watched him as a Tar Heel even though he played limited minutes. I thought he impacted games.

martin wrote:

Rookie wrote:

martin wrote:

Rookie wrote:

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

martin wrote:To get Jalen Brunson, Leon hired his dad a long while before that all went down. Lots and lots of family and friends dinners.

How long did it take to convince OG to switch to CAA and Sam Rose as agent away from Clutch? I don't know all the inner workings there but it seems like plans were made long before they happened.

The Mikal thing was not a whim and things needed to be ironed out before they went down.

IMHO the center position situation will not be a whim maneuver. Leon had all summer to make a trade, or in the very least, probably a cool month building up to the Mitch announcement.

Maybe I'm dead wrong too.

Yes I agree, a lot of build up to all of these things. I’m keeping an eye on Walker Kessler because his name has been thrown around a lot and he’s CAA. Leon just needs time to work the back channels to get him over here. He doesn’t always get everyone he wants but seems like he can figure out a way when he’s locked in to a certain player. D Mitchell is the only exception. I know it’s an Ainge guy but I think he’s more likely to work with ainge than Toronto or Bk and he accomplished both of those. I see Kessler as a Knick maybe this year or next. I think he’s the target with the remaining assets and they will hold tight until that time comes, or something better along the way.

Help me understand Kessler.

It seems like he is known for his rim protection. His FT% is not really that good and he does not shoot outside of the painted area. Kessler shot 60% from FT in college for 2 years as well as 2 years in Utah. He would be a late playoff game hack-a-thon or playoff targeted switch candidate?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kesslwa01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kesslwa01.html#all_shooting-playoffs_shooting
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kesslwa01.html#all_all_college_stats

How is his defense on the perimeter? Can he switch out to the 3 point line and not look like a baby giraffe when SF's or guards are on him?

If Kessler cannot be semi average and not look comfortable guarding out to the 3point line and his shooting after 2 years is non existent as a C, what is his upside and when does it hit cause Knicks need it today?

Martin, it's refreshing to see that you still believe in unicorns. He is a big man in the mold of Mitch. He's going to protect the rim, rebound and is very good in the p-n-r. He is extremely talented in a losing environment on a team with no identity and doesn't know if it's tanking or trying to be competitive. He is a fit on a Thibs coached team. He makes 2.9M this season and 4.8 next season and just turned 23 years old. At 7'-0" 245lbs he is a true big. There was a SL league game where Kessler matched up against Zach Eddy who is 7'-4" and 300lbs and it was a real battle. That's what you get with Kessler. After that game, his play dropped off. I don't think he really gave a crap after the Eden match up and was kind of pissed to have to be there with all the trade rumors swirling

I don't know how much information we can get from Kessler guarding a rookie in SL? And then, how does he do against playoff level guys?

I wouldn't expect the Knicks to trade for a unicorn but I think the Knicks won't trade for an unknown quantity (or not enough of a *known* quantity) or pay more than they need to. What's fair exchange for Kessler? What's the adult trade and then what is Ainge's upcharge that Leon would be AOK with?

If Kessler does not solve playoff problems for the Knicks because of a certain flaw - above and beyond what he can do very well - is that worth it over and beyond what Leon can get for a similar level package? Maybe he is. I am asking because I do not know.

What's he like on the perimeter from a defensive perspective? It's the playoffs where he needs to be solid enough? That's my assumption.

My other assumption is the only realistic exchange the Knicks can make for Kessler is Deuce+? Maybe I don't have that right.

If Leon has other plans beyond Deuce/Kessler exchange, Deuce is the small'ish level contract that gets tacked on to a potential very big trade that is pulled off salary wise because of that cherry on top. Leon needs to hedge with Deuce; he is the one overlapping trade asset on the roster that has very good value IMHO, most of the firsts are gone or tied up or have very malleable value right now (ie, hard to quantify and negotiate with other side on... are they gonna be mid firsts eventually or not as fun seconds?).

It usually takes young players who have never been to playoffs a year or so to show up. Witness IQ, RJ, Grimes and most all young players. Various level young guys who took different times to find their flow in the regular season and then the playoffs.

Knicks cannot wait on Kessler to find out that he needs 2+ years of playoffs to find his footing if they already KNOW Deuce is almost at that point while on a 3 year descending near vet min deal? I'd guess this is the hedge part and why they haven't not made a trade for a C yet.

I don't know that he is the answer, just an option. He is available and fills a Knicks need. I have no idea how you can make a trade work or what we would have to give up, just that Ainge values unprotected picks or players he can flip for picks. Kessler is worth a FRP or a player but not both and certainly not 2 unprotected FRP's.

I do however like Kessler having watched him as a Tar Heel even though he played limited minutes. I thought he impacted games.

It's weird for me to state this, but I would say that if Mitch was not injured and slated to start training camp AOK, the Knicks may feel *more* comfortable trading Deuce for Kessler knowing full well that they at least have 2 of those guys to go back and forth with and time to integrate Kessler into the Knicks culture of things.

All of the immediate expectations on a trade return are flipped if Kessler is thrown into a newly starting position for a deep playoff team without a lot of needed ramp up time. iHart took a long time to get up to Knicks and Thibs speed to a point where he looked comfortable starting. Maybe some of that is on Thibs too but it was real. Or maybe we can point to iHart and see how Thibs and Knicks took a cast off and quickly turned him into what he is today? I am playing devil's advocate on myself.

Not sure I agree. It sounds like you are saying you shouldn't buy a sandwich when you are hungry cause you might eat it too fast -- you should buy a sandwich when you are not hungry so you have time to savor it. I'm pretty sure if you are really hungry and you have the opportunity to buy a sandwich, you should buy that sandwich and not just wait until you are not hungry anymore.

The only alternative I think works is suggesting a more capable player to step in than Kessler is. I think Kessler is pretty far along but follows a mold of Center that very few teams still covet.

Point is that the Knicks have so few trade chips available and very few options to fill a roster hole. I am not really concerned here, but I wouldn't hesitate to do something with a Kessler/Deuce trade. Robinson's health does not make it less likely to make this move in my opinion.

Whether we want to trade Deuce on the other hand is a question. That contract looks like it will earn out well over the next 4 years. I might be willing to punt on the first 8 weeks of the season in favor of our possible Dec 15 opportunities and otherwise, maybe re-evaluate where the Detroit and Washington picks look by the trade deadline. Long season. Not a lot of teams can punish us for a small ball C.