EwingPSD wrote:Hopefully the Jazz will stop tanking and we will find out one day. They torpedoed an decent over achieving roster at the trade deadline each of the last two season instead of giving there team a chance. I would hate to be a fan of that team.

At the same time Danny does this to raise the bar long term. He has gone the route of Presti in OKC whom looked lost for while also. Don't work unless you go deep in the tank and draft quality. Then you have assets to trade.

Im thinking Thunder have 36mil in cap space to use in part on iHart. Not saying we could get a fair value trade but would it not benefit both knicks and OKC to contrast a trade at some level. Presti can relieve team of some excess and stay under the cap getting iHart or another player.
This chess game is 3d and beyond my imagination but not enough that I can't see the concept.

Jazz are not nearly that close and he needs to move Lauri as the cost to resign him/injury risk can be a problem for a team not making the playoffs with him. He is good, not good enough. They have John Collins as a placeholder for mediocrity. He has two years at 26mil each that includes a player option in the second year. His contract gets interesting at some point. He is still only 26. He has had two seasons over 70 games played, not injured a lot, but not durable. His minutes this year under 30 per game. He is trending to a good role player. A sort of not so highly paid Tobias Harris. Some players are ok if you don't look a the contract. Collins money due to inflation is not insane like Harris was at the time. What are the Jazz doing? They are treading water until opportunity presents itself. They have not gotten lucky since DM, but have not done anything really stupid either since trading him out.

OKC looked bad for while and PG13 made no sense once they moved from Westbrick. Remember Melo there? Still they won high 47-48 games and were pretty good. Then traded PG13. Then 44 games and going nowhere. Then cleaned house in 2020-21. OKC killed it with SGA AND a treasure trove of picks. Clipps needed PG13 to bring in Kawhi. Opportunity created the "luck". Presti needed time to tread water also.
Not saying its an exact replica Danny is doing, but he is trying.
Maybe he puts a big package with Lauri to Boston for Jaylen Brown? Then he builds on that. Of course Lauri is a Celtic. All good white dudes are Celtics at some point! LOL Celtics going to cap hell will make things even tougher going forward.

For fans like us we really have to dive in deep to other teams needs to conjure up real time solutions and if we help solve. Thats not our jobs. Its fun to throw trades on the wall and see what sticks!

Nalod wrote:KP gets more humble as time goes on.
He is a pro at rehabbing.

True!

maybe it turns out like OKC. Maybe they go sideways like the Celts did for a loooong time

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:

EwingPSD wrote:Hopefully the Jazz will stop tanking and we will find out one day. They torpedoed an decent over achieving roster at the trade deadline each of the last two season instead of giving there team a chance. I would hate to be a fan of that team.

At the same time Danny does this to raise the bar long term. He has gone the route of Presti in OKC whom looked lost for while also. Don't work unless you go deep in the tank and draft quality. Then you have assets to trade.

Im thinking Thunder have 36mil in cap space to use in part on iHart. Not saying we could get a fair value trade but would it not benefit both knicks and OKC to contrast a trade at some level. Presti can relieve team of some excess and stay under the cap getting iHart or another player.
This chess game is 3d and beyond my imagination but not enough that I can't see the concept.

Jazz are not nearly that close and he needs to move Lauri as the cost to resign him/injury risk can be a problem for a team not making the playoffs with him. He is good, not good enough. They have John Collins as a placeholder for mediocrity. He has two years at 26mil each that includes a player option in the second year. His contract gets interesting at some point. He is still only 26. He has had two seasons over 70 games played, not injured a lot, but not durable. His minutes this year under 30 per game. He is trending to a good role player. A sort of not so highly paid Tobias Harris. Some players are ok if you don't look a the contract. Collins money due to inflation is not insane like Harris was at the time. What are the Jazz doing? They are treading water until opportunity presents itself. They have not gotten lucky since DM, but have not done anything really stupid either since trading him out.

OKC looked bad for while and PG13 made no sense once they moved from Westbrick. Remember Melo there? Still they won high 47-48 games and were pretty good. Then traded PG13. Then 44 games and going nowhere. Then cleaned house in 2020-21. OKC killed it with SGA AND a treasure trove of picks. Clipps needed PG13 to bring in Kawhi. Opportunity created the "luck". Presti needed time to tread water also.
Not saying its an exact replica Danny is doing, but he is trying.
Maybe he puts a big package with Lauri to Boston for Jaylen Brown? Then he builds on that. Of course Lauri is a Celtic. All good white dudes are Celtics at some point! LOL Celtics going to cap hell will make things even tougher going forward.

For fans like us we really have to dive in deep to other teams needs to conjure up real time solutions and if we help solve. Thats not our jobs. Its fun to throw trades on the wall and see what sticks!

For me, this is exactly why I can’t put a finger on what Utah is trying to do.

Having Lauri, Jordan Clarkson, John Collins, Sexton and others is just good enough to be about a #9-14 draft pick territory barring weird injuries?

Lauri and Collins are in walk years so you really can’t play the usual Danny tough negotiator tactics in trades with those dudes?

Pascal Siakam was in similar position and his return was like 2 firsts?

I think Ainge wants to be Sam Presti. Turn Utah into a player exchange and collect picks. Wield his salary cap to add value until one of the lotto ticket hits.

Siakam is 30 and among the more overrated players.
Markannen is 27 and among the up and coming, albeit a late bloomer. KP’s emergence in Boston should push Markannen’s asking price up.

Nalod wrote:KP gets more humble as time goes on.
He is a pro at rehabbing.

I heard he’s out game 3 with a sore left vagina

EwingsGlass wrote:

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:

EwingPSD wrote:Hopefully the Jazz will stop tanking and we will find out one day. They torpedoed an decent over achieving roster at the trade deadline each of the last two season instead of giving there team a chance. I would hate to be a fan of that team.

At the same time Danny does this to raise the bar long term. He has gone the route of Presti in OKC whom looked lost for while also. Don't work unless you go deep in the tank and draft quality. Then you have assets to trade.

Im thinking Thunder have 36mil in cap space to use in part on iHart. Not saying we could get a fair value trade but would it not benefit both knicks and OKC to contrast a trade at some level. Presti can relieve team of some excess and stay under the cap getting iHart or another player.
This chess game is 3d and beyond my imagination but not enough that I can't see the concept.

Jazz are not nearly that close and he needs to move Lauri as the cost to resign him/injury risk can be a problem for a team not making the playoffs with him. He is good, not good enough. They have John Collins as a placeholder for mediocrity. He has two years at 26mil each that includes a player option in the second year. His contract gets interesting at some point. He is still only 26. He has had two seasons over 70 games played, not injured a lot, but not durable. His minutes this year under 30 per game. He is trending to a good role player. A sort of not so highly paid Tobias Harris. Some players are ok if you don't look a the contract. Collins money due to inflation is not insane like Harris was at the time. What are the Jazz doing? They are treading water until opportunity presents itself. They have not gotten lucky since DM, but have not done anything really stupid either since trading him out.

OKC looked bad for while and PG13 made no sense once they moved from Westbrick. Remember Melo there? Still they won high 47-48 games and were pretty good. Then traded PG13. Then 44 games and going nowhere. Then cleaned house in 2020-21. OKC killed it with SGA AND a treasure trove of picks. Clipps needed PG13 to bring in Kawhi. Opportunity created the "luck". Presti needed time to tread water also.
Not saying its an exact replica Danny is doing, but he is trying.
Maybe he puts a big package with Lauri to Boston for Jaylen Brown? Then he builds on that. Of course Lauri is a Celtic. All good white dudes are Celtics at some point! LOL Celtics going to cap hell will make things even tougher going forward.

For fans like us we really have to dive in deep to other teams needs to conjure up real time solutions and if we help solve. Thats not our jobs. Its fun to throw trades on the wall and see what sticks!

For me, this is exactly why I can’t put a finger on what Utah is trying to do.

Having Lauri, Jordan Clarkson, John Collins, Sexton and others is just good enough to be about a #9-14 draft pick territory barring weird injuries?

Lauri and Collins are in walk years so you really can’t play the usual Danny tough negotiator tactics in trades with those dudes?

Pascal Siakam was in similar position and his return was like 2 firsts?

I think Ainge wants to be Sam Presti. Turn Utah into a player exchange and collect picks. Wield his salary cap to add value until one of the lotto ticket hits.

Siakam is 30 and among the more overrated players.
Markannen is 27 and among the up and coming, albeit a late bloomer. KP’s emergence in Boston should push Markannen’s asking price up.

I don’t think that how negotiation and leverage work.

Lauri is going to be a UFA after the 2024 season. A team that wants to trade for a player that is on an expiring has to have a good sense of if that traded player will resign.

I don’t think the Siakam or KP stuff has any substance to it in the way you regard it.

The KP analysis is more a testament to eFG/TS modeling for offenses. Having a 7foot 40% 3 point shooter just opens up the floor and pulls a big man out of the paint. Bucks did it with Lopez at 36% to give Giannis room to breathe. I do believe the Celts are as well constructed of a team and I could see teams following the model (KP, Chet, VW) with a run on 7 foot 3pt shooters.

When you present it that way it makes more sense.

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:

EwingPSD wrote:Hopefully the Jazz will stop tanking and we will find out one day. They torpedoed an decent over achieving roster at the trade deadline each of the last two season instead of giving there team a chance. I would hate to be a fan of that team.

At the same time Danny does this to raise the bar long term. He has gone the route of Presti in OKC whom looked lost for while also. Don't work unless you go deep in the tank and draft quality. Then you have assets to trade.

Im thinking Thunder have 36mil in cap space to use in part on iHart. Not saying we could get a fair value trade but would it not benefit both knicks and OKC to contrast a trade at some level. Presti can relieve team of some excess and stay under the cap getting iHart or another player.
This chess game is 3d and beyond my imagination but not enough that I can't see the concept.

Jazz are not nearly that close and he needs to move Lauri as the cost to resign him/injury risk can be a problem for a team not making the playoffs with him. He is good, not good enough. They have John Collins as a placeholder for mediocrity. He has two years at 26mil each that includes a player option in the second year. His contract gets interesting at some point. He is still only 26. He has had two seasons over 70 games played, not injured a lot, but not durable. His minutes this year under 30 per game. He is trending to a good role player. A sort of not so highly paid Tobias Harris. Some players are ok if you don't look a the contract. Collins money due to inflation is not insane like Harris was at the time. What are the Jazz doing? They are treading water until opportunity presents itself. They have not gotten lucky since DM, but have not done anything really stupid either since trading him out.

OKC looked bad for while and PG13 made no sense once they moved from Westbrick. Remember Melo there? Still they won high 47-48 games and were pretty good. Then traded PG13. Then 44 games and going nowhere. Then cleaned house in 2020-21. OKC killed it with SGA AND a treasure trove of picks. Clipps needed PG13 to bring in Kawhi. Opportunity created the "luck". Presti needed time to tread water also.
Not saying its an exact replica Danny is doing, but he is trying.
Maybe he puts a big package with Lauri to Boston for Jaylen Brown? Then he builds on that. Of course Lauri is a Celtic. All good white dudes are Celtics at some point! LOL Celtics going to cap hell will make things even tougher going forward.

For fans like us we really have to dive in deep to other teams needs to conjure up real time solutions and if we help solve. Thats not our jobs. Its fun to throw trades on the wall and see what sticks!

For me, this is exactly why I can’t put a finger on what Utah is trying to do.

Having Lauri, Jordan Clarkson, John Collins, Sexton and others is just good enough to be about a #9-14 draft pick territory barring weird injuries?

Lauri and Collins are in walk years so you really can’t play the usual Danny tough negotiator tactics in trades with those dudes?

Pascal Siakam was in similar position and his return was like 2 firsts?

I think Ainge wants to be Sam Presti. Turn Utah into a player exchange and collect picks. Wield his salary cap to add value until one of the lotto ticket hits.

Siakam is 30 and among the more overrated players.
Markannen is 27 and among the up and coming, albeit a late bloomer. KP’s emergence in Boston should push Markannen’s asking price up.

I don’t think that how negotiation and leverage work.

Lauri is going to be a UFA after the 2024 season. A team that wants to trade for a player that is on an expiring has to have a good sense of if that traded player will resign.

I don’t think the Siakam or KP stuff has any substance to it in the way you regard it.

The KP analysis is more a testament to eFG/TS modeling for offenses. Having a 7foot 40% 3 point shooter just opens up the floor and pulls a big man out of the paint. Bucks did it with Lopez at 36% to give Giannis room to breathe. I do believe the Celts are as well constructed of a team and I could see teams following the model (KP, Chet, VW) with a run on 7 foot 3pt shooters.

I think the above does speak to the worth of a spacing center. I don't think it changes the value of Lauri or increases any leverage that Danny would have simply because Lauri is an UFA. Those levers are determined by how much faith you have in keeping and resigning Lauri if you trade for him against the backdrop of Lauri having a team preference and the availability of other teams with cap space? Lauri is a well-known commodity, nothing has changed dramatically... well, except that KP is very very very injury prone and 7 footers who want to run and dunk with abandon will probably get hurt.

Lauri's trade value is set by his market, same with the amount of Danny's leverage. Danny has to create a market for Lauri fast, or resign him.

Pascal is a very good player. His market value for Masai

- Pacers receive: Pascal Siakam, 2024 second-round pick (via Pelicans)
- Raptors receive: Bruce Brown, Jordan Nwora, Kira Lewis Jr., 2024 first-round pick (via Pacers), 2024 first-round pick (lesser of picks from Jazz/Clippers/Rockets/Thunder) and 2026 first-round pick (via Pacers, protected 1-4)
- Pelicans receive: Cash considerations

Siakam by himself on a bad team does not lift it by himself, same as Lauri.

It'll take one dumb team to put in an offer that is Gobert-like and it'll make Danny look like a genius, or it will drop to near zero if Lauri says he is going to become an UFA on July 1 and he will look for a new team then and Danny can watch as Kyrie Irving leaves his team for nothing.

Those are the pressure points as I see them.

I am putting higher value on 3 point percentage than you. I keep talking about Boston's team construction because their worst 3 point shooter in their rotation is Jaylen Brown at 35%. I don't really care how many points Siakam, Randle or anyone else can score from the paint. Every shot they take from there is a lower PPP than their stretch big adversary. Their eFGs and TS% are just less than their 3 point shooting competitors resulting in less points per shot. They need the refs to blow the whistle to bail them out of this and the refs have gotten real stingy on that front.

Siakam and Randle both add value in rebounding and their specific gravity. Leads to both more opportunities and better 3 point looks when they pass it. So, I am not at all saying its stretch big is light years ahead of brawler on the block, but I think that the brawler on the block MUST be able to identify the more efficient shot AND execute to get the ball their in a timely manner in order to keep up with the team that is shooting 50 3s a game.

What's this mean for value? I have Markaanen a bit higher in value than Siakam 1) Because his current contract is lower, he is more accessible to more teams when adding or transferring salary 2) He is younger 3) He is taller, 4) He shoots better. There is still the argument for growth potential, only a year removed from MIP.

My guess? 3 picks, 1 of which is unprotected and a solid young player (not a salary dump solely for matching)

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:

EwingPSD wrote:Hopefully the Jazz will stop tanking and we will find out one day. They torpedoed an decent over achieving roster at the trade deadline each of the last two season instead of giving there team a chance. I would hate to be a fan of that team.

At the same time Danny does this to raise the bar long term. He has gone the route of Presti in OKC whom looked lost for while also. Don't work unless you go deep in the tank and draft quality. Then you have assets to trade.

Im thinking Thunder have 36mil in cap space to use in part on iHart. Not saying we could get a fair value trade but would it not benefit both knicks and OKC to contrast a trade at some level. Presti can relieve team of some excess and stay under the cap getting iHart or another player.
This chess game is 3d and beyond my imagination but not enough that I can't see the concept.

Jazz are not nearly that close and he needs to move Lauri as the cost to resign him/injury risk can be a problem for a team not making the playoffs with him. He is good, not good enough. They have John Collins as a placeholder for mediocrity. He has two years at 26mil each that includes a player option in the second year. His contract gets interesting at some point. He is still only 26. He has had two seasons over 70 games played, not injured a lot, but not durable. His minutes this year under 30 per game. He is trending to a good role player. A sort of not so highly paid Tobias Harris. Some players are ok if you don't look a the contract. Collins money due to inflation is not insane like Harris was at the time. What are the Jazz doing? They are treading water until opportunity presents itself. They have not gotten lucky since DM, but have not done anything really stupid either since trading him out.

OKC looked bad for while and PG13 made no sense once they moved from Westbrick. Remember Melo there? Still they won high 47-48 games and were pretty good. Then traded PG13. Then 44 games and going nowhere. Then cleaned house in 2020-21. OKC killed it with SGA AND a treasure trove of picks. Clipps needed PG13 to bring in Kawhi. Opportunity created the "luck". Presti needed time to tread water also.
Not saying its an exact replica Danny is doing, but he is trying.
Maybe he puts a big package with Lauri to Boston for Jaylen Brown? Then he builds on that. Of course Lauri is a Celtic. All good white dudes are Celtics at some point! LOL Celtics going to cap hell will make things even tougher going forward.

For fans like us we really have to dive in deep to other teams needs to conjure up real time solutions and if we help solve. Thats not our jobs. Its fun to throw trades on the wall and see what sticks!

For me, this is exactly why I can’t put a finger on what Utah is trying to do.

Having Lauri, Jordan Clarkson, John Collins, Sexton and others is just good enough to be about a #9-14 draft pick territory barring weird injuries?

Lauri and Collins are in walk years so you really can’t play the usual Danny tough negotiator tactics in trades with those dudes?

Pascal Siakam was in similar position and his return was like 2 firsts?

I think Ainge wants to be Sam Presti. Turn Utah into a player exchange and collect picks. Wield his salary cap to add value until one of the lotto ticket hits.

Siakam is 30 and among the more overrated players.
Markannen is 27 and among the up and coming, albeit a late bloomer. KP’s emergence in Boston should push Markannen’s asking price up.

I don’t think that how negotiation and leverage work.

Lauri is going to be a UFA after the 2024 season. A team that wants to trade for a player that is on an expiring has to have a good sense of if that traded player will resign.

I don’t think the Siakam or KP stuff has any substance to it in the way you regard it.

The KP analysis is more a testament to eFG/TS modeling for offenses. Having a 7foot 40% 3 point shooter just opens up the floor and pulls a big man out of the paint. Bucks did it with Lopez at 36% to give Giannis room to breathe. I do believe the Celts are as well constructed of a team and I could see teams following the model (KP, Chet, VW) with a run on 7 foot 3pt shooters.

I think the above does speak to the worth of a spacing center. I don't think it changes the value of Lauri or increases any leverage that Danny would have simply because Lauri is an UFA. Those levers are determined by how much faith you have in keeping and resigning Lauri if you trade for him against the backdrop of Lauri having a team preference and the availability of other teams with cap space? Lauri is a well-known commodity, nothing has changed dramatically... well, except that KP is very very very injury prone and 7 footers who want to run and dunk with abandon will probably get hurt.

Lauri's trade value is set by his market, same with the amount of Danny's leverage. Danny has to create a market for Lauri fast, or resign him.

Pascal is a very good player. His market value for Masai

- Pacers receive: Pascal Siakam, 2024 second-round pick (via Pelicans)
- Raptors receive: Bruce Brown, Jordan Nwora, Kira Lewis Jr., 2024 first-round pick (via Pacers), 2024 first-round pick (lesser of picks from Jazz/Clippers/Rockets/Thunder) and 2026 first-round pick (via Pacers, protected 1-4)
- Pelicans receive: Cash considerations

Siakam by himself on a bad team does not lift it by himself, same as Lauri.

It'll take one dumb team to put in an offer that is Gobert-like and it'll make Danny look like a genius, or it will drop to near zero if Lauri says he is going to become an UFA on July 1 and he will look for a new team then and Danny can watch as Kyrie Irving leaves his team for nothing.

Those are the pressure points as I see them.

I am putting higher value on 3 point percentage than you. I keep talking about Boston's team construction because their worst 3 point shooter in their rotation is Jaylen Brown at 35%. I don't really care how many points Siakam, Randle or anyone else can score from the paint. Every shot they take from there is a lower PPP than their stretch big adversary. Their eFGs and TS% are just less than their 3 point shooting competitors resulting in less points per shot. They need the refs to blow the whistle to bail them out of this and the refs have gotten real stingy on that front.

Siakam and Randle both add value in rebounding and their specific gravity. Leads to both more opportunities and better 3 point looks when they pass it. So, I am not at all saying its stretch big is light years ahead of brawler on the block, but I think that the brawler on the block MUST be able to identify the more efficient shot AND execute to get the ball their in a timely manner in order to keep up with the team that is shooting 50 3s a game.

What's this mean for value? I have Markaanen a bit higher in value than Siakam 1) Because his current contract is lower, he is more accessible to more teams when adding or transferring salary 2) He is younger 3) He is taller, 4) He shoots better. There is still the argument for growth potential, only a year removed from MIP.

My guess? 3 picks, 1 of which is unprotected and a solid young player (not a salary dump solely for matching)

I don't disagree with anything you are saying but I think we are talking about 2 different things. I think you are talking about Lauri's trade value as a player while I am saying the market will take the player's value and then add a layer after that to determine his marketable trade value.

KP was also traded for very little relative to his perceived player value.

You are definitely right that the contract will impact overall trade value. I thought you were setting his ceiling at Siakam - so I was countering that KP's success in Boston would actually be a market force that raises that ceiling as Markaanen's most natural comp.

KP absolutely traded at a real discount to value based on his l issues in NY, lack of performance in Dallas and many injury concerns. He rehabilitated that image a bit in Washington, looking like the comeback player of the year. Boston put him in the best position to succeed, standing 27 feet from the basket taking open looks putting any doubt as to his value to rest.

Where KP played 57 games for the team with the best record,
Avg'd 20-7 in those games.
Played 7 games in the playoffs.

Where do you even come up with this stuff?

Kinda sad when your trying to be funny and clueless at the same time.

Nalod wrote:Eddie Played 14 games for Miami, avg 5.9 min in those games.
No playoff games.

Where KP played 57 games for the team with the best record,
Avg'd 20-7 in those games.
Played 7 games in the playoffs.

Where do you even come up with this stuff?

Kinda sad when your trying to be funny and clueless at the same time.

Wait so a player making close to the max played 57 regular season games? Get outta here good thing you kept your Porzingis jersey! You should wear it to the parade in Boston I’m sure the drunk M*******s will love you!

EwingsGlass wrote:

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:

EwingPSD wrote:Hopefully the Jazz will stop tanking and we will find out one day. They torpedoed an decent over achieving roster at the trade deadline each of the last two season instead of giving there team a chance. I would hate to be a fan of that team.

At the same time Danny does this to raise the bar long term. He has gone the route of Presti in OKC whom looked lost for while also. Don't work unless you go deep in the tank and draft quality. Then you have assets to trade.

Im thinking Thunder have 36mil in cap space to use in part on iHart. Not saying we could get a fair value trade but would it not benefit both knicks and OKC to contrast a trade at some level. Presti can relieve team of some excess and stay under the cap getting iHart or another player.
This chess game is 3d and beyond my imagination but not enough that I can't see the concept.

Jazz are not nearly that close and he needs to move Lauri as the cost to resign him/injury risk can be a problem for a team not making the playoffs with him. He is good, not good enough. They have John Collins as a placeholder for mediocrity. He has two years at 26mil each that includes a player option in the second year. His contract gets interesting at some point. He is still only 26. He has had two seasons over 70 games played, not injured a lot, but not durable. His minutes this year under 30 per game. He is trending to a good role player. A sort of not so highly paid Tobias Harris. Some players are ok if you don't look a the contract. Collins money due to inflation is not insane like Harris was at the time. What are the Jazz doing? They are treading water until opportunity presents itself. They have not gotten lucky since DM, but have not done anything really stupid either since trading him out.

OKC looked bad for while and PG13 made no sense once they moved from Westbrick. Remember Melo there? Still they won high 47-48 games and were pretty good. Then traded PG13. Then 44 games and going nowhere. Then cleaned house in 2020-21. OKC killed it with SGA AND a treasure trove of picks. Clipps needed PG13 to bring in Kawhi. Opportunity created the "luck". Presti needed time to tread water also.
Not saying its an exact replica Danny is doing, but he is trying.
Maybe he puts a big package with Lauri to Boston for Jaylen Brown? Then he builds on that. Of course Lauri is a Celtic. All good white dudes are Celtics at some point! LOL Celtics going to cap hell will make things even tougher going forward.

For fans like us we really have to dive in deep to other teams needs to conjure up real time solutions and if we help solve. Thats not our jobs. Its fun to throw trades on the wall and see what sticks!

For me, this is exactly why I can’t put a finger on what Utah is trying to do.

Having Lauri, Jordan Clarkson, John Collins, Sexton and others is just good enough to be about a #9-14 draft pick territory barring weird injuries?

Lauri and Collins are in walk years so you really can’t play the usual Danny tough negotiator tactics in trades with those dudes?

Pascal Siakam was in similar position and his return was like 2 firsts?

I think Ainge wants to be Sam Presti. Turn Utah into a player exchange and collect picks. Wield his salary cap to add value until one of the lotto ticket hits.

Siakam is 30 and among the more overrated players.
Markannen is 27 and among the up and coming, albeit a late bloomer. KP’s emergence in Boston should push Markannen’s asking price up.

I don’t think that how negotiation and leverage work.

Lauri is going to be a UFA after the 2024 season. A team that wants to trade for a player that is on an expiring has to have a good sense of if that traded player will resign.

I don’t think the Siakam or KP stuff has any substance to it in the way you regard it.

The KP analysis is more a testament to eFG/TS modeling for offenses. Having a 7foot 40% 3 point shooter just opens up the floor and pulls a big man out of the paint. Bucks did it with Lopez at 36% to give Giannis room to breathe. I do believe the Celts are as well constructed of a team and I could see teams following the model (KP, Chet, VW) with a run on 7 foot 3pt shooters.

I think the above does speak to the worth of a spacing center. I don't think it changes the value of Lauri or increases any leverage that Danny would have simply because Lauri is an UFA. Those levers are determined by how much faith you have in keeping and resigning Lauri if you trade for him against the backdrop of Lauri having a team preference and the availability of other teams with cap space? Lauri is a well-known commodity, nothing has changed dramatically... well, except that KP is very very very injury prone and 7 footers who want to run and dunk with abandon will probably get hurt.

Lauri's trade value is set by his market, same with the amount of Danny's leverage. Danny has to create a market for Lauri fast, or resign him.

Pascal is a very good player. His market value for Masai

- Pacers receive: Pascal Siakam, 2024 second-round pick (via Pelicans)
- Raptors receive: Bruce Brown, Jordan Nwora, Kira Lewis Jr., 2024 first-round pick (via Pacers), 2024 first-round pick (lesser of picks from Jazz/Clippers/Rockets/Thunder) and 2026 first-round pick (via Pacers, protected 1-4)
- Pelicans receive: Cash considerations

Siakam by himself on a bad team does not lift it by himself, same as Lauri.

It'll take one dumb team to put in an offer that is Gobert-like and it'll make Danny look like a genius, or it will drop to near zero if Lauri says he is going to become an UFA on July 1 and he will look for a new team then and Danny can watch as Kyrie Irving leaves his team for nothing.

Those are the pressure points as I see them.

I am putting higher value on 3 point percentage than you. I keep talking about Boston's team construction because their worst 3 point shooter in their rotation is Jaylen Brown at 35%. I don't really care how many points Siakam, Randle or anyone else can score from the paint. Every shot they take from there is a lower PPP than their stretch big adversary. Their eFGs and TS% are just less than their 3 point shooting competitors resulting in less points per shot. They need the refs to blow the whistle to bail them out of this and the refs have gotten real stingy on that front.

Siakam and Randle both add value in rebounding and their specific gravity. Leads to both more opportunities and better 3 point looks when they pass it. So, I am not at all saying its stretch big is light years ahead of brawler on the block, but I think that the brawler on the block MUST be able to identify the more efficient shot AND execute to get the ball their in a timely manner in order to keep up with the team that is shooting 50 3s a game.

What's this mean for value? I have Markaanen a bit higher in value than Siakam 1) Because his current contract is lower, he is more accessible to more teams when adding or transferring salary 2) He is younger 3) He is taller, 4) He shoots better. There is still the argument for growth potential, only a year removed from MIP.

My guess? 3 picks, 1 of which is unprotected and a solid young player (not a salary dump solely for matching)

I think spacing players have more margin for error than the brawler does. Spreading out the defense works b/c everyone who touches the ball is not only a potential 3-point shooter but is also a potential driver who is attacking an open paint area. When the brawler doesn't have the ball but is working to get a catch they are clogging the lane and limiting slashing/cutting opportunities. If your brawler is good he is scoring, creating open 3s, limiting turnover, and making it easier to dictate pace. If he isn't really good the negatives are compounded b/c he kills your spacing hanging out in the middle of the paint without the ball. The Pacers had no real post-up presence before PS but were still leading the league in paint point b/c they had good spacing, ball movement, and finishers. Brawlers can be great but they almost have to be if you want to be successful with them on the floor