martin wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:

fishmike wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:
In other words, 3.5 years later we are built as a solid mediocrity with ECF as our ceiling.

In other words we are an ECF contender with depth and a treasure trove of picks along with a core of key player on reasonable contracts about 27 years old.

Has it been a roller coaster ride? Seems like mostly up to me since Thibs got here. MIP, 2x all star, 2 playoff berths in 3 years after decades of none. Only a roller coaster for fans who hate on their guys. That makes it tough.

ECF contender or ECF fodder - no different.
The concept of our stockpile of picks being a treasure trove is way overstated in my opinion. In Rose's opinion apparently too, given how he was trading out of the first round.
RJ and IQ with about 25 pts apiece the other night. Both homegrown Knicks. You cannot buy talent on your way to a championship, unless you have the Lakers cache. Gotta grow your own superstars. It is Thibs that hates on his young guys. No wonder, given how he comes from the JVG school of thought. Though, to give him credit, he does give them minutes, unlike JVG with his 8-man veteran rotations. Still, not enough patience to build around them.

The Knicks is good. Enjoy the team

ESOMKnicks wrote:

fishmike wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:
In other words, 3.5 years later we are built as a solid mediocrity with ECF as our ceiling.

In other words we are an ECF contender with depth and a treasure trove of picks along with a core of key player on reasonable contracts about 27 years old.

Has it been a roller coaster ride? Seems like mostly up to me since Thibs got here. MIP, 2x all star, 2 playoff berths in 3 years after decades of none. Only a roller coaster for fans who hate on their guys. That makes it tough.

ECF contender or ECF fodder - no different.
The concept of our stockpile of picks being a treasure trove is way overstated in my opinion. In Rose's opinion apparently too, given how he was trading out of the first round.
RJ and IQ with about 25 pts apiece the other night. Both homegrown Knicks. You cannot buy talent on your way to a championship, unless you have the Lakers cache. Gotta grow your own superstars. It is Thibs that hates on his young guys. No wonder, given how he comes from the JVG school of thought. Though, to give him credit, he does give them minutes, unlike JVG with his 8-man veteran rotations. Still, not enough patience to build around them.

We failed to make ECF with those two and if we fail with OG, we in the same place.
RJ and IQ hung 25 and lost the game. Context.
Is the "Treasure trove of picks" overstated? I'd say most fans overstate everything. You and I included!
THibs hates his young guys? You mean RJ that 125mil? IQ, who will start and make similar? Deuce who is promoted? Grimes who is getting his minutes and time to get it together? Mitch was young. He turned into a fine center. Isiah, he was a career back up and he is blossoming!
Frank, Knox, Obi, Cam, and others did not pass the muster.
Just enjoy what it is. You can still root for ex knicks to do well. As long as we are on the rise more power to them!
Im hope the league recognizes Thibs is a hard ass but if you good enough you can thrive.
Frank, Kevin and Obi are thriving? Not really. But if they do its cool as long as we doing well.

nycericanguy wrote:Man... you almost feel like you know these guys. We gave TOR a whole starting backcourt age 23/24. Tough to watch those guys light it up.

We better get a superstar next offseason

ramtour420 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:

fishmike wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:This letter makes me doubt this guy would have left us in the summer. Sure there would have been a way to get to a reasonable deal with him.
This type of loyal character guys, who can also really ball, you just don't trade.

except Randle right? You would trade him...

Randle is a different type of character. When he is on - he looks positively Ewingesque. When he sulks or takes bad shots or spins - he positively hurts the team. It has been a roller-coaster with him, which is why I argued for a "sell high" on him.

fishmike wrote:
anyway IQ was a gem. We all knew that. He was my fav player to watch. He was the cost. Both get upgrades in opportunity. I have said for years RJ needs to play SG.

What we got back is better. A 1-5 defender and instant floor spacer opening things for Randle/Brunson even more. He already looks great with IHart but pair OG and Mitch and its the literal death of your pick and roll. OG is 26 and a terrific person.

3.5 years later we are built around Brunson, Randle, OG and Mitch with a very good supporting cast, all our FRPs and 4 extra's potentially in the queue. No bad contracts and everyone's best years are ahead of them. Losing IQ is tough but it's a great time to be a Knick fan

In other words, 3.5 years later we are built as a solid mediocrity with ECF as our ceiling.

In other words we are an ECF contender with depth and a treasure trove of picks along with a core of key player on reasonable contracts about 27 years old.

Has it been a roller coaster ride? Seems like mostly up to me since Thibs got here. MIP, 2x all star, 2 playoff berths in 3 years after decades of none. Only a roller coaster for fans who hate on their guys. That makes it tough.

This.

Those sort of constant negative complaints always seem to ignore ANY positives.
Same people that complained about Ewing never winning a chip yet ignored other factors and everything we accomplished. Same thing that will be said of Randle if we get to the finals but fail to win it. Ignoring all the positives that took place to get us there.

The FO has done a great job. And it all started with the hiring of Thibs.

Arguably, it all started with Phil Jackson refusing to trade any picks.

It didnt start with Phil. All the players he drafted regressed after their rookie season. Frank was a bust. KP was recovering from knee surgery, and in full Diva mode. Melo got a near max deal with a 15 percent trade kicker, and a no trade clause. Only 3 players had one.

GMs couldnt reach Phil at the trade deadline, he slept through a workout. Tweeted nasty stuff about his players from Montana. Hired his first coach who was still a player at the time and absolutely no coaching experience.

When he was hired Phil said that a new coach wouldnt have to run the Triangle, but that was a lie.

It all started with Scott Perry cleaning up the mess that Phil left behind. Trading a washed superstar, a high draft pick with a season ending injury, and complaining how the team was being run from Europe. Perry moved them without getting fleeced. Which was no easy thing to do. One was washed, the other one was recovering from major surgery, and bad press, from what turned out to be false rumors.

Perry cleaned up Phil's mess. Stockpiled draft picks, got us more cap room than any other team at the time.

With Phil there was constant drama, with Perry there was stability, getting the Knicks off the treadmill. No contracts like Noah's. Bargain signing like Randle. Making a deal to clear cap space for Brunson, with detroit.

Much of our success was built on the previous regime, led by Perry. Any attempt to credit Phil is ludicrous. Even admitted that it was his girlfriend's idea to take the job. His heart was never in it.

Name one Knicks GM who left his successor as much to build on? Cap space, a surplus of picks, and young talent to build around.

ramtour420 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:

fishmike wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:This letter makes me doubt this guy would have left us in the summer. Sure there would have been a way to get to a reasonable deal with him.
This type of loyal character guys, who can also really ball, you just don't trade.

except Randle right? You would trade him...

Randle is a different type of character. When he is on - he looks positively Ewingesque. When he sulks or takes bad shots or spins - he positively hurts the team. It has been a roller-coaster with him, which is why I argued for a "sell high" on him.

fishmike wrote:
anyway IQ was a gem. We all knew that. He was my fav player to watch. He was the cost. Both get upgrades in opportunity. I have said for years RJ needs to play SG.

What we got back is better. A 1-5 defender and instant floor spacer opening things for Randle/Brunson even more. He already looks great with IHart but pair OG and Mitch and its the literal death of your pick and roll. OG is 26 and a terrific person.

3.5 years later we are built around Brunson, Randle, OG and Mitch with a very good supporting cast, all our FRPs and 4 extra's potentially in the queue. No bad contracts and everyone's best years are ahead of them. Losing IQ is tough but it's a great time to be a Knick fan

In other words, 3.5 years later we are built as a solid mediocrity with ECF as our ceiling.

In other words we are an ECF contender with depth and a treasure trove of picks along with a core of key player on reasonable contracts about 27 years old.

Has it been a roller coaster ride? Seems like mostly up to me since Thibs got here. MIP, 2x all star, 2 playoff berths in 3 years after decades of none. Only a roller coaster for fans who hate on their guys. That makes it tough.

This.

Those sort of constant negative complaints always seem to ignore ANY positives.
Same people that complained about Ewing never winning a chip yet ignored other factors and everything we accomplished. Same thing that will be said of Randle if we get to the finals but fail to win it. Ignoring all the positives that took place to get us there.

The FO has done a great job. And it all started with the hiring of Thibs.

Arguably, it all started with Phil Jackson refusing to trade any picks.

It didnt start with Phil. All the players he drafted regressed after their rookie season. Frank was a bust. KP was recovering from knee surgery, and in full Diva mode. Melo got a near max deal with a 15 percent trade kicker, and a no trade clause. Only 3 players had one.

GMs couldnt reach Phil at the trade deadline, he slept through a workout. Tweeted nasty stuff about his players from Montana. Hired his first coach who was still a player at the time and absolutely no coaching experience.

When he was hired Phil said that a new coach wouldnt have to run the Triangle, but that was a lie.

It all started with Scott Perry cleaning up the mess that Phil left behind. Trading a washed superstar, a high draft pick with a season ending injury, and complaining how the team was being run from Europe. Perry moved them without getting fleeced. Which was no easy thing to do. One was washed, the other one was recovering from major surgery, and bad press, from what turned out to be false rumors.

Perry cleaned up Phil's mess. Stockpiled draft picks, got us more cap room than any other team at the time.

With Phil there was constant drama, with Perry there was stability, getting the Knicks off the treadmill. No contracts like Noah's. Bargain signing like Randle. Making a deal to clear cap space for Brunson, with detroit.

Much of our success was built on the previous regime, led by Perry. Any attempt to credit Phil is ludicrous. Even admitted that it was his girlfriend's idea to take the job. His heart was never in it.

Name one Knicks GM who left his successor as much to build on? Cap space, a surplus of picks, and young talent to build around.

Phil was not perfect, he made mistakes and I never made that argument to begin with so I am not sure why you decided to write about his mistakes. My point was that our rebuild process started with not trading away draft capital. Phil was the first one who did that.
Now a legit argument that you could have made would be that it all started with Dolan stepping away from team decisions and that started before Phil. That took place under Donnie Walsh, if I am not mistaken. But that is another argument all together.

Because no conversation about the Knicks resurgence should start with crediting Phil Jackson.

He couldnt trade those first round picks his first couple of seasons, because they had already been traded away before he got there. By the time Phil did have some first rounders, we were desperate for lotto picks.

Fond memories of watching Phil as a player as part of the championship Knicks, but he came back to NY mostly to collect a paycheck. He lived in the past, and mostly treated his players like doo doo.

GustavBahler wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:

fishmike wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:This letter makes me doubt this guy would have left us in the summer. Sure there would have been a way to get to a reasonable deal with him.
This type of loyal character guys, who can also really ball, you just don't trade.

except Randle right? You would trade him...

Randle is a different type of character. When he is on - he looks positively Ewingesque. When he sulks or takes bad shots or spins - he positively hurts the team. It has been a roller-coaster with him, which is why I argued for a "sell high" on him.

fishmike wrote:
anyway IQ was a gem. We all knew that. He was my fav player to watch. He was the cost. Both get upgrades in opportunity. I have said for years RJ needs to play SG.

What we got back is better. A 1-5 defender and instant floor spacer opening things for Randle/Brunson even more. He already looks great with IHart but pair OG and Mitch and its the literal death of your pick and roll. OG is 26 and a terrific person.

3.5 years later we are built around Brunson, Randle, OG and Mitch with a very good supporting cast, all our FRPs and 4 extra's potentially in the queue. No bad contracts and everyone's best years are ahead of them. Losing IQ is tough but it's a great time to be a Knick fan

In other words, 3.5 years later we are built as a solid mediocrity with ECF as our ceiling.

In other words we are an ECF contender with depth and a treasure trove of picks along with a core of key player on reasonable contracts about 27 years old.

Has it been a roller coaster ride? Seems like mostly up to me since Thibs got here. MIP, 2x all star, 2 playoff berths in 3 years after decades of none. Only a roller coaster for fans who hate on their guys. That makes it tough.

This.

Those sort of constant negative complaints always seem to ignore ANY positives.
Same people that complained about Ewing never winning a chip yet ignored other factors and everything we accomplished. Same thing that will be said of Randle if we get to the finals but fail to win it. Ignoring all the positives that took place to get us there.

The FO has done a great job. And it all started with the hiring of Thibs.

Arguably, it all started with Phil Jackson refusing to trade any picks.

It didnt start with Phil. All the players he drafted regressed after their rookie season. Frank was a bust. KP was recovering from knee surgery, and in full Diva mode. Melo got a near max deal with a 15 percent trade kicker, and a no trade clause. Only 3 players had one.

GMs couldnt reach Phil at the trade deadline, he slept through a workout. Tweeted nasty stuff about his players from Montana. Hired his first coach who was still a player at the time and absolutely no coaching experience.

When he was hired Phil said that a new coach wouldnt have to run the Triangle, but that was a lie.

It all started with Scott Perry cleaning up the mess that Phil left behind. Trading a washed superstar, a high draft pick with a season ending injury, and complaining how the team was being run from Europe. Perry moved them without getting fleeced. Which was no easy thing to do. One was washed, the other one was recovering from major surgery, and bad press, from what turned out to be false rumors.

Perry cleaned up Phil's mess. Stockpiled draft picks, got us more cap room than any other team at the time.

With Phil there was constant drama, with Perry there was stability, getting the Knicks off the treadmill. No contracts like Noah's. Bargain signing like Randle. Making a deal to clear cap space for Brunson, with detroit.

Much of our success was built on the previous regime, led by Perry. Any attempt to credit Phil is ludicrous. Even admitted that it was his girlfriend's idea to take the job. His heart was never in it.

Name one Knicks GM who left his successor as much to build on? Cap space, a surplus of picks, and young talent to build around.

Phil.

All that was said was Phil stopped trading picks. Nobody said he did a good job.
Mills hired Perry and they did not trade away pick after pick.
Perry carried over to Leon.

Thus, Phil started reasonable era. The picks did not convey/execute as one would have hoped. But they were made and post Phil picks were bartered for other picks and moves. Phil was left with just two picks in 4 years. Since then we have had our picks or traded them for other picks/yoot.

Previous regime was Mils and it was brief. Perry build on Phils reluctance to trade picks. Thus the organization shift was 2014. The Bargnani dilemma perhaps left Dolan with clear evidence that Isiah/Grunwald era had to end. The Mckinsey report was asinine for many reasons but it likely bought clarity that cashing in draft currency as we were was not productive. Out was Grunwald in October. Mills we hired. By March Phil was in.
When Mills was reinstated he had to deal with KP injury and trade request. I forget but Mills had to go as he was to do a trade to save his ass?

Phil did a **** job, but he stopped the wholesale disposal of draft picks. THat was the question. Perry/mills build on that, signed Randle and traded Morris for the Pick that was IQ. Leon took the torch from there. Welcome back Gustav.