Knickoftime wrote:

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

ccch wrote:Would love to see Hart replace Barrett. What a waste of a # 3 pick. His defense and shooting is below average. I'm getting sick of seeing him go 4 for 14, 2 for 12...etc. I think he's definitely the week link in our starting 5.

You say that, but then Barrett is the reason we beat a team like Miami without Brunson. Just have to deal with the inconsistencies until he develops. He’s 22.

What’s the Mendoza line of age and number of years experience RJ has in terms of expectations of being an average performing offensive a defensive player?

There isn't.

I've seen guys break out in year 6 and 7.

Fact is, Barrett's numbers have improved from 10 feet in, pretty significantly in fact.

Overall there's actually been some progress on the offensive end. .25 to .30 % points in 3 pt shooting (and not being so cold and hot in that order) would do his profile and perception wonders.

Not smart enough to comment on his defense and I'll say he probably is the weak link in the starting (healthy) line-up.

Concerns are legit, and his path will be a slow one if he ever does breakout, but I'm not a fatalist I have no reason to assume he's a finished product.

Sure there is, there is plenty of evidence we can gather using both age and experience and how that plays out in terms of development and what we can, should, or hope expect. I'm hoping you didn't interpret "Mendoza line" as a hard line of sorts, these things probably have some sort of standard deviation to glean from; the odd guy who breaks out later in the process may be an anomaly or just circumstance or something else and not very informative.

I'm not saying RJ can't break out. I'm looking at his feet and seeing how slow they are and noting he will never move fast enough to be a good defender. I am looking at the fact that RJ is still a very below average shooter (outside of FT's) and noting that shooters of that quality (especially ones who have been working with a specialized shooting trainer, one of the best, for a very long time) rarely make that leap.

What is the context of RJ's improvements? Is he at average yet (because obviously if you go from awful to not too awful, who cares?)? And by those same trends, how long will him to get to average and then above it?

RJ constantly forgets how to shoot or has zero feel for shooting; I had expected his mechanics to be much more in line with an obsessive compulsive type like Ray Allen but it doesn't seem to be the case. We know some guys just got it, some just don't, and there is a big bucket in the middle; everyone can pick which they feel he is in.

Scouting will never be an exact science but for that standard deviation of players, age and experience will shed a gigantic look at where RJ falls.

More to the point of my Mendoza line statement: when can we start to realize that 22 going on 23 this summer really is not a heavy factor much more, especially combined with number of years training and experience he has.

Knixkik wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Obi just doesnt fit in this offense, operating mostly from the corner. The FO needs to put Thibs in a position whete he feels comfortable benching Randle in the 4th, if necessary. Just like he did with RJ. We need a strong 4th quarter finisher at the 4. Starting or off the bench.

The good news is that the FO has the resources to find that player.

Obi does fit the offense when he’s hitting 3’s. He was hot last couple months but has cooled off big time last 2 games.

Its the job description for a player like Novak, not Obi.

So you’re saying you prefer a less dynamic player who can only do one thing like Novak?

No lol, Im saying that if the job description is for a one dimensional player, who spends most of the game in the corner, waiting to shoot the 3. Better to get a more reliable shooter.

Obi being dynamic really doesnt mean much to the team, if he isnt put in the best position to make use of it. Has more to offer than the role he has been given.

I would rather have a player (for this team) who does the one thing really well that we need, than a player who needs more minutes to figure out if there’s anything he does well, if that makes sense. We are beyond this point as a team and don’t have the capability to mold a project like Toppin at this point. It’s not much different than it was with Cam.

SwishFM said it best, that Thibs should try using Obi in the offense , the same way he uses Randle.

Give him more room to operate. I dont consider it a big shift in the game plan.

But Toppin hasn’t shown any ability to be used that way. He hasn’t developed any moves in the post or self creation off the dribble. He needs to show something before being used that way.

He is the most overrated player on the roster. The obsession with forcing this guy into the lineup is ridiculous. He isn't that good.

Jmpasq wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Obi just doesnt fit in this offense, operating mostly from the corner. The FO needs to put Thibs in a position whete he feels comfortable benching Randle in the 4th, if necessary. Just like he did with RJ. We need a strong 4th quarter finisher at the 4. Starting or off the bench.

The good news is that the FO has the resources to find that player.

Obi does fit the offense when he’s hitting 3’s. He was hot last couple months but has cooled off big time last 2 games.

Its the job description for a player like Novak, not Obi.

So you’re saying you prefer a less dynamic player who can only do one thing like Novak?

No lol, Im saying that if the job description is for a one dimensional player, who spends most of the game in the corner, waiting to shoot the 3. Better to get a more reliable shooter.

Obi being dynamic really doesnt mean much to the team, if he isnt put in the best position to make use of it. Has more to offer than the role he has been given.

I would rather have a player (for this team) who does the one thing really well that we need, than a player who needs more minutes to figure out if there’s anything he does well, if that makes sense. We are beyond this point as a team and don’t have the capability to mold a project like Toppin at this point. It’s not much different than it was with Cam.

SwishFM said it best, that Thibs should try using Obi in the offense , the same way he uses Randle.

Give him more room to operate. I dont consider it a big shift in the game plan.

But Toppin hasn’t shown any ability to be used that way. He hasn’t developed any moves in the post or self creation off the dribble. He needs to show something before being used that way.

He is the most overrated player on the roster. The obsession with forcing this guy into the lineup is ridiculous. He isn't that good.

Unfortunately I am there with you and don't even wanna be

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Maybe Hart can push the second unit pace and unlock Toppin a bit, but Toppin is really struggling to make an impact in his current role. That role is clearly more suited for a big wing or 4 that can knock down open 3s. Someone with enough consistency so that the impact is there each game. Watching Georges Niang last night, that guy would be perfect for that role behind Randle. He has shot over 40% from 3pt for 4 seasons in a row, and in utah he was playing in the 14-15 mpg range which is what he would be around here. Wonder if we can grab him for the non-taxpayers mid level this summer. Other options would be drafting Kris Murray (his brother is one of the best 3pt shooters in the league already), or trading For Bogdanović which I’ve discussed how that deal makes sense in other threads. But the Knicks badly need shooting. Hart plugs a ton of holes here but shooting becomes even more important if he’s soaking up 25-30 mpg. A second unit of Quickley, Hart, Barrett, Niang, and Hartenstein would be really tough to stop.

They need shooters in the starting line-up too. It's the biggest weakness on the team. We have very uneven shooting from our wings. Its a big reason we lose so many close games. Frustrating to watch us finally have an elite drive and kick PG only to surround him with masons.

It comes down to Grimes. Brunson is a 40% 3pt shooter. Randle and Barrett are both league average 3pt shooters on high volume. Grimes needs to be a 40% 3pt shooter at some point. If he can do that, we have enough shooting in the starting lineup. But the jury is still out. He’s the 3&D guy though so it’s his job.

No they ain't.

Feel like we must table set what is league average 3pt shooter. League average 3pt% is 36%.

For me, Randle is near average and takes a lot of really difficult 3's.

RJ has always been below average.

RJ is a career 35.2%. Last year the league average was 35.4%. I know you dislike him but are you really going to nitpick to that degree and not call him average?

Knixkik wrote:

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Maybe Hart can push the second unit pace and unlock Toppin a bit, but Toppin is really struggling to make an impact in his current role. That role is clearly more suited for a big wing or 4 that can knock down open 3s. Someone with enough consistency so that the impact is there each game. Watching Georges Niang last night, that guy would be perfect for that role behind Randle. He has shot over 40% from 3pt for 4 seasons in a row, and in utah he was playing in the 14-15 mpg range which is what he would be around here. Wonder if we can grab him for the non-taxpayers mid level this summer. Other options would be drafting Kris Murray (his brother is one of the best 3pt shooters in the league already), or trading For Bogdanović which I’ve discussed how that deal makes sense in other threads. But the Knicks badly need shooting. Hart plugs a ton of holes here but shooting becomes even more important if he’s soaking up 25-30 mpg. A second unit of Quickley, Hart, Barrett, Niang, and Hartenstein would be really tough to stop.

They need shooters in the starting line-up too. It's the biggest weakness on the team. We have very uneven shooting from our wings. Its a big reason we lose so many close games. Frustrating to watch us finally have an elite drive and kick PG only to surround him with masons.

It comes down to Grimes. Brunson is a 40% 3pt shooter. Randle and Barrett are both league average 3pt shooters on high volume. Grimes needs to be a 40% 3pt shooter at some point. If he can do that, we have enough shooting in the starting lineup. But the jury is still out. He’s the 3&D guy though so it’s his job.

No they ain't.

Feel like we must table set what is league average 3pt shooter. League average 3pt% is 36%.

For me, Randle is near average and takes a lot of really difficult 3's.

RJ has always been below average.

RJ is a career 35.2%. Last year the league average was 35.4%. I know you dislike him but are you really going to nitpick to that degree and not call him average?

It's weird but RJ's stats really tell us a different story. RJ was blazing hot for 2.5 months in 2020 season (Feb, April, May) where he shot 47% from 3. All other months combined he has shot something like 33%. Over a 4 year period. Which is just about the average of what he has shot in year 1, 3, and this year.

Those couple of months have really skewed his stats to bring him to that 35%.

We are only talking a few % points. For me the fact that he is STILL around the same in year 4 is troubling.

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Maybe Hart can push the second unit pace and unlock Toppin a bit, but Toppin is really struggling to make an impact in his current role. That role is clearly more suited for a big wing or 4 that can knock down open 3s. Someone with enough consistency so that the impact is there each game. Watching Georges Niang last night, that guy would be perfect for that role behind Randle. He has shot over 40% from 3pt for 4 seasons in a row, and in utah he was playing in the 14-15 mpg range which is what he would be around here. Wonder if we can grab him for the non-taxpayers mid level this summer. Other options would be drafting Kris Murray (his brother is one of the best 3pt shooters in the league already), or trading For Bogdanović which I’ve discussed how that deal makes sense in other threads. But the Knicks badly need shooting. Hart plugs a ton of holes here but shooting becomes even more important if he’s soaking up 25-30 mpg. A second unit of Quickley, Hart, Barrett, Niang, and Hartenstein would be really tough to stop.

They need shooters in the starting line-up too. It's the biggest weakness on the team. We have very uneven shooting from our wings. Its a big reason we lose so many close games. Frustrating to watch us finally have an elite drive and kick PG only to surround him with masons.

It comes down to Grimes. Brunson is a 40% 3pt shooter. Randle and Barrett are both league average 3pt shooters on high volume. Grimes needs to be a 40% 3pt shooter at some point. If he can do that, we have enough shooting in the starting lineup. But the jury is still out. He’s the 3&D guy though so it’s his job.

No they ain't.

Feel like we must table set what is league average 3pt shooter. League average 3pt% is 36%.

For me, Randle is near average and takes a lot of really difficult 3's.

RJ has always been below average.

RJ is a career 35.2%. Last year the league average was 35.4%. I know you dislike him but are you really going to nitpick to that degree and not call him average?

It's weird but RJ's stats really tell us a different story. RJ was blazing hot for 2.5 months in 2020 season (Feb, April, May) where he shot 47% from 3. All other months combined he has shot something like 33%. Over a 4 year period. Which is just about the average of what he has shot in year 1, 3, and this year.

Those couple of months have really skewed his stats to bring him to that 35%.

We are only talking a few % points. For me the fact that he is STILL around the same in year 4 is troubling.

That’s fine, you won’t get an argument out of me that he’s not really inconsistent. But I’m just looking at the full picture and not specific sample sizes. The way you just did it, I think you will find a lot of players in the league with a similar story.

GustavBahler wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Obi just doesnt fit in this offense, operating mostly from the corner. The FO needs to put Thibs in a position whete he feels comfortable benching Randle in the 4th, if necessary. Just like he did with RJ. We need a strong 4th quarter finisher at the 4. Starting or off the bench.

The good news is that the FO has the resources to find that player.

Obi does fit the offense when he’s hitting 3’s. He was hot last couple months but has cooled off big time last 2 games.

Its the job description for a player like Novak, not Obi.

So you’re saying you prefer a less dynamic player who can only do one thing like Novak?

No lol, Im saying that if the job description is for a one dimensional player, who spends most of the game in the corner, waiting to shoot the 3. Better to get a more reliable shooter.

Obi being dynamic really doesnt mean much to the team, if he isnt put in the best position to make use of it. Has more to offer than the role he has been given.

I would rather have a player (for this team) who does the one thing really well that we need, than a player who needs more minutes to figure out if there’s anything he does well, if that makes sense. We are beyond this point as a team and don’t have the capability to mold a project like Toppin at this point. It’s not much different than it was with Cam.

SwishFM said it best, that Thibs should try using Obi in the offense , the same way he uses Randle.

Give him more room to operate. I dont consider it a big shift in the game plan.

But Toppin hasn’t shown any ability to be used that way. He hasn’t developed any moves in the post or self creation off the dribble. He needs to show something before being used that way.

I disagree. Last time he was allowed to play that way it was to end the season. He had a 40pt game, and his best stretch as a pro.

Before that when, his rookie year? What would Randle's numbers be like with Obi's role, away from the ball?

Obi has shown he can attack the rim from the top of the key, but he has a different role than Randle. Cant hurt to give him the same role, and see what Obi can do. When he isnt the 4th option.

His best stretch as a pro was late in the season when these types of breakouts tend to happen. You’re not getting much defense from teams at that point. It’s much different than doing it this time of year. Besides the part of the season that equates to garbage time, it’s been few and far between despite a consistent role for 2 1/2 seasons. He didn’t have to earn it like IQ or Grimes. He was placed into a rotation role from day 1 and maintains that role regardless of play. No other PF on the roster.

Knixkik wrote:

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Maybe Hart can push the second unit pace and unlock Toppin a bit, but Toppin is really struggling to make an impact in his current role. That role is clearly more suited for a big wing or 4 that can knock down open 3s. Someone with enough consistency so that the impact is there each game. Watching Georges Niang last night, that guy would be perfect for that role behind Randle. He has shot over 40% from 3pt for 4 seasons in a row, and in utah he was playing in the 14-15 mpg range which is what he would be around here. Wonder if we can grab him for the non-taxpayers mid level this summer. Other options would be drafting Kris Murray (his brother is one of the best 3pt shooters in the league already), or trading For Bogdanović which I’ve discussed how that deal makes sense in other threads. But the Knicks badly need shooting. Hart plugs a ton of holes here but shooting becomes even more important if he’s soaking up 25-30 mpg. A second unit of Quickley, Hart, Barrett, Niang, and Hartenstein would be really tough to stop.

They need shooters in the starting line-up too. It's the biggest weakness on the team. We have very uneven shooting from our wings. Its a big reason we lose so many close games. Frustrating to watch us finally have an elite drive and kick PG only to surround him with masons.

It comes down to Grimes. Brunson is a 40% 3pt shooter. Randle and Barrett are both league average 3pt shooters on high volume. Grimes needs to be a 40% 3pt shooter at some point. If he can do that, we have enough shooting in the starting lineup. But the jury is still out. He’s the 3&D guy though so it’s his job.

No they ain't.

Feel like we must table set what is league average 3pt shooter. League average 3pt% is 36%.

For me, Randle is near average and takes a lot of really difficult 3's.

RJ has always been below average.

RJ is a career 35.2%. Last year the league average was 35.4%. I know you dislike him but are you really going to nitpick to that degree and not call him average?

It's weird but RJ's stats really tell us a different story. RJ was blazing hot for 2.5 months in 2020 season (Feb, April, May) where he shot 47% from 3. All other months combined he has shot something like 33%. Over a 4 year period. Which is just about the average of what he has shot in year 1, 3, and this year.

Those couple of months have really skewed his stats to bring him to that 35%.

We are only talking a few % points. For me the fact that he is STILL around the same in year 4 is troubling.

That’s fine, you won’t get an argument out of me that he’s not really inconsistent. But I’m just looking at the full picture and not specific sample sizes. The way you just did it, I think you will find a lot of players in the league with a similar story.

The next level that I look at for shooting 3's is %Assisted and then type of shot.

So for instance, compare Trae Young 32.6% and RJ 33.3%. Similar stats. Trae has a %assisted rate of 35.5%, RJ is 93.5%. That means - for the most part and really glossed over - RJ is just sitting there waiting with his hands up for a pass; Trae is dribbling around and pulling up or whatnot. Vastly different type of shots.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/y/youngtr01.html#all_shooting-playoffs_shooting
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/barrerj01.html#all_shooting-playoffs_shooting

I am belaboring this way too much, I know.