NYKMentality wrote:

Vmart wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Vmart wrote:If you can trade Randle for SGA get it done. Throw in picks if you have to.

or maybe Luka!

If you can get Luka throw everyone in the trunk.

Why?

So Luka can stunt the development of everyone else on the Knicks as he dribbles for 20 seconds before either shooting or passing? Luka Doncic is a freaking me-1st type of selfish BALL HOG (who's never made his teammates around him better). It's no coincidence that Dallas plays better basketball without him on the floor.

Heck.

Look @ how awesome Jalen Brunson is becoming (here in NYC) now that he's (finally) escaped the shadows of Luka Doncic (the BALL HOG).

No thnx you.

It’s a star driven league. Stars make the finals and it’s by design.

Vmart wrote:

NYKMentality wrote:

Vmart wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Vmart wrote:If you can trade Randle for SGA get it done. Throw in picks if you have to.

or maybe Luka!

If you can get Luka throw everyone in the trunk.

Why?

So Luka can stunt the development of everyone else on the Knicks as he dribbles for 20 seconds before either shooting or passing? Luka Doncic is a freaking me-1st type of selfish BALL HOG (who's never made his teammates around him better). It's no coincidence that Dallas plays better basketball without him on the floor.

Heck.

Look @ how awesome Jalen Brunson is becoming (here in NYC) now that he's (finally) escaped the shadows of Luka Doncic (the BALL HOG).

No thnx you.

Its a star driven league. Stars make the finals and its by design.

When has Luka Doncic ever "made the finals"?

fishmike wrote:

Panos wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Vmart wrote:If you can trade Randle for SGA get it done. Throw in picks if you have to.

or maybe Luka!

Or Michael Jordan!!

he's overrated. If you look at Jordan and RJ they are very similar in their early years

I don't think we get that higher level player without either gutting our bench and draft picks or selling high on Randle who should be able to command at least 1 first round pick (unprotected) if he's as amazing as many here believe he is. So it comes down to how we each believe we can get there.

I would take our pick, add Dallas pick and a 1st we land from trading Randle - and move up to an 8-9 position as this draft seems loaded. Risk is there either way IMO.

I would rather keep more picks, IQ, Toppin and possibly Grimes vs keeping Randle to upgrade. I believe IQ has developed nicely and could become a starter in time. I'm not as high on Toppin lately but also believe we have done very little to put him in a position to serve his strengths... we play slow, ask him to stand in the corner and shoot 3s like K. Korver, etc... not sure we really know what we have in him. Grimes seems like a perfect plug and play 2/3 - just needs time to develop. RJ doesn't seem to have good chemistry with Randle and I stick with the youth and believe RJ can be similarly productive in a similar role.

I'll admit my bias against Randle is partially Thibs offensive scheme and role he assigned Randle to... but that combined with Randle's iso-ball, slow tempo/pace, overhandling and feast or famine shooting does not make me want to hitch our wagon to his long-term. He deserves a lot of credit for improving his effort and overall play this year - but fear a repeat of 2 seasons ago with less options the more we build around him.

martin wrote:Ian's take

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/IanBegley/status/1619009214155988992

N'Dour blew out his knee after leaving the Knicks and wasnt the same player afterwards. Not sure why that part always gets left out.

fishmike wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:I know it may seem less logical to not ride Randle's improved play this year and go for the playoffs but still think this could be the last (good) opportunity to sell high on Randle and use the rest of the season to decide on IQ, Obi, Sims and even Cam. While the FO may be content making the playoffs (even if early exit) I still see this path as short-sighted to some degree.

If Randle flames out in the playoffs again - there will be more pressure to move him and yet his trade value will decline again (like the last time).

If I'm wrong and he plays well we are still not realistically strong enough to beat the upper echelon teams in a 7 games series.

I'd even be open to trying to rebuild our roster with Randle but then feel strongly that Thibs has to go for it to work. I get this is an unpopular take and likely not realistic but does anyone agree with the position that something out of Randle, Thibs and RJ has to move or change for us to healthily progress to next level (even if not likely to happen)?

Exs
Trade RJ and/or Randle
Move RJ to the bench and upgrade SF position
New Coach and/or new offensive system implemented

Knicks are 5th in the league in PPS
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2023.html

Randle has gotten better on BOTH ends AND has shown the ability to effectively defer to better suited finisher (Brunson) and be happy about it. He's also hitting young guys like Grimes for open 3s in crunch time. Yeah lets get rid of THAT guy.

RJ... well there's an argument but he's also 22 so patience is a factor. I would move him for a better fit (OG) but that's just me

Less heroball from Randle, more rebounding. better D. Still some sloppy play in the 4th. Im guessing its nerves more than anything.

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:I know it may seem less logical to not ride Randle's improved play this year and go for the playoffs but still think this could be the last (good) opportunity to sell high on Randle and use the rest of the season to decide on IQ, Obi, Sims and even Cam. While the FO may be content making the playoffs (even if early exit) I still see this path as short-sighted to some degree.

If Randle flames out in the playoffs again - there will be more pressure to move him and yet his trade value will decline again (like the last time).

If I'm wrong and he plays well we are still not realistically strong enough to beat the upper echelon teams in a 7 games series.

I'd even be open to trying to rebuild our roster with Randle but then feel strongly that Thibs has to go for it to work. I get this is an unpopular take and likely not realistic but does anyone agree with the position that something out of Randle, Thibs and RJ has to move or change for us to healthily progress to next level (even if not likely to happen)?

Exs
Trade RJ and/or Randle
Move RJ to the bench and upgrade SF position
New Coach and/or new offensive system implemented

Knicks are 5th in the league in PPS
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2023.html

Randle has gotten better on BOTH ends AND has shown the ability to effectively defer to better suited finisher (Brunson) and be happy about it. He's also hitting young guys like Grimes for open 3s in crunch time. Yeah lets get rid of THAT guy.

RJ... well there's an argument but he's also 22 so patience is a factor. I would move him for a better fit (OG) but that's just me

Less heroball from Randle, more rebounding. better D. Still some sloppy play in the 4th. Im guessing its nerves more than anything.

Hero ball is when guys take matters into their own hands and ignore team plays. Is it Hero ball when JB runs iso off a spread set? So why is it Hero ball when it's clear Thibs is running a spread set for Randle to post up. Can he make better reads, yes, but stop with the "hero ball" brush to paint a selfish tone.
More rebounds? We not talking about Obi. Randle just had 14 and usually leads the team.
His defensive effort has been there all year. Made some blocks this year that we did not ever see before.
These narratives are old man. Stop trying to rekindle them. We all know you are an Obi lover and can't take that your view on Randle was shortsighted.
Some of us fought you guys all summer with the BS that Randle was garbage because of yet another 20/10 year. Just because the rest of the team was crap.
The knowledgeable fans knew the relevance of not having a true PG, the consistent historical production, the physicality he exhibit every year since being drafted and the reasonable contract he has.
Fact is, Randle is a beast. He is a fighter. Tough sob. He has all the tools that makes him the best player on the court on most games. He was last night. Does he need to improve his bball IQ? Absolutely. But so does every player on the planet.
We need more players like him. Not less.

HofstraBBall wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:I don't think Luka is realistic and actually think we are better served to try to land a higher level star via the draft or overpay for an up and coming young player with high potential (eg Anfernee Simmons). I do think Randle will fall back to somewhere in between this year and last years stats and just don't believe he has what it takes to lead us as a primary guy. Not his fault as he's in a higher role then he should be in...

I don't think we get that higher level player without either gutting our bench and draft picks or selling high on Randle who should be able to command at least 1 first round pick (unprotected) if he's as amazing as many here believe he is. So it comes down to how we each believe we can get there.

I would take our pick, add Dallas pick and a 1st we land from trading Randle - and move up to an 8-9 position as this draft seems loaded. Risk is there either way IMO.

I would rather keep more picks, IQ, Toppin and possibly Grimes vs keeping Randle to upgrade. I believe IQ has developed nicely and could become a starter in time. I'm not as high on Toppin lately but also believe we have done very little to put him in a position to serve his strengths... we play slow, ask him to stand in the corner and shoot 3s like K. Korver, etc... not sure we really know what we have in him. Grimes seems like a perfect plug and play 2/3 - just needs time to develop. RJ doesn't seem to have good chemistry with Randle and I stick with the youth and believe RJ can be similarly productive in a similar role.

I'll admit my bias against Randle is partially Thibs offensive scheme and role he assigned Randle to... but that combined with Randle's iso-ball, slow tempo/pace, overhandling and feast or famine shooting does not make me want to hitch our wagon to his long-term. He deserves a lot of credit for improving his effort and overall play this year - but fear a repeat of 2 seasons ago with less options the more we build around him.

Simmons huh. Guess we would develop him into an All Star and then sell high?
You think Randle will fall back back between 24ppg and 20? 10rpg and 11? What a shame.
The Ole "he is not a primary guy"? He was last night. He has been most of the two out of the last three years. And do you think Randle should win a chip by himself. Yet Nets, with two of the best players on the planet have yet to do so? What a concept. Of course he can't be a primary on a chip team but what does that have to do with needing to trade him? You do know you need good players on a team besides the primary guy right? Who is that going to be? Obi, Deuce, some guy you can't say who? Here is an idea, let's keep the guys like Randle, JB and RJ who can actually play and produce and get another two more that can also produce at similar levels. Trade the one dimensional guys like Obi, who has not done what a 8 pick should do along with other obvious weak links who have many more weaknesses then the ones mentioned for Randle. ie, Rose, Cam, EF, Deuce.
Btw, you think we would only get a first for Randle? And trading him would only move us a few spots in draft? LMAO. You have no concept of current market value.
Smells like the bias you mention is a cover for the actual bias which seems to be preferring a guy who is underachieving and has yet to produce over a proven alpha.

Not if he is more of a building block. His stats are good but only a part of what we as fans should be looking at. He has not been a primary guy as he has not been at the level of primary guys (eg Lebrons, KD)... so an easier path to get an alpha/star is to package one of your best player (with picks) to upgrade. Last season other teams would laugh as they hung up the phone. This season he is playing much better and we have lots of picks - so not sure why that is so unreasonable...especially if you think he is worth multiple first round picks right?

I will admit I don't know his actual value. I tried to get the forum perspective on here awhile back and there was no consensus. I heard everything from maybe a protected first to a similar player and a heavily protected pick. When his value was lower in the past offseason it was suggested by many that we would have had to attach a pick just to trade him. Obviously it's much better now - so what do you think it is? My bias was stated and I think (to his credit) he has overachieved. If we had this same conversation last season or two seasons before would you be this adamant that he is untouchable? Simply because he's our best player does not mean that to me. I side with RJ vs Randle most of the time but he's not untouchable either - nobody is if it's about the team IMO. So we can agree to disagree...

Excellent posts about Julius Randle man. I enjoyed each and every word/sentence/point you made; thnx you! 🤝📝🤝

Dude.

This "trade Julius Randle" talk is freaking laughable to me. He's not only having an All-Star season but he's having an All-NBA year (while still within the midst of his prime). He's playing at an absolute Superstar level while doing it within NYC too (against the media driven NY pressure).

Even more importantly?

We've now got ourselves an All-Star pair @ both PG/PF.

Because Jaden Brunson/Julius Randle (as a duo) has not only developed into an electric/dominant/exciting/beast mode and fun to watch PG/PF tandem but the chemistry as a 1-2 punch was there from literally, day 1; and can't no NBA expert name us 5 NBA DUO's currently more elite than a PG/PF duo of Jalen Brunson and Julius Randle. Jalen Brunson and Julius Randle (as a tandem/duo/1-2 punch) are playing like we dreamed of Carmelo Anthony and Amar'e Stoudemire (which unfortunately, never happened) and/or playing just as downright dominant as John Starks and Patrick Ewing of the 1990's. We haven't seen an NY duo dominate like THIS in damn near 30+ years.

But yet. Here we are. Having talks about trading Julius Randle?!?!?!? Are you freaking KIDDING ME?!?

HofstraBBall wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:I know it may seem less logical to not ride Randle's improved play this year and go for the playoffs but still think this could be the last (good) opportunity to sell high on Randle and use the rest of the season to decide on IQ, Obi, Sims and even Cam. While the FO may be content making the playoffs (even if early exit) I still see this path as short-sighted to some degree.

If Randle flames out in the playoffs again - there will be more pressure to move him and yet his trade value will decline again (like the last time).

If I'm wrong and he plays well we are still not realistically strong enough to beat the upper echelon teams in a 7 games series.

I'd even be open to trying to rebuild our roster with Randle but then feel strongly that Thibs has to go for it to work. I get this is an unpopular take and likely not realistic but does anyone agree with the position that something out of Randle, Thibs and RJ has to move or change for us to healthily progress to next level (even if not likely to happen)?

Exs
Trade RJ and/or Randle
Move RJ to the bench and upgrade SF position
New Coach and/or new offensive system implemented

Knicks are 5th in the league in PPS
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2023.html

Randle has gotten better on BOTH ends AND has shown the ability to effectively defer to better suited finisher (Brunson) and be happy about it. He's also hitting young guys like Grimes for open 3s in crunch time. Yeah lets get rid of THAT guy.

RJ... well there's an argument but he's also 22 so patience is a factor. I would move him for a better fit (OG) but that's just me

Less heroball from Randle, more rebounding. better D. Still some sloppy play in the 4th. Im guessing its nerves more than anything.

Hero ball is when guys take matters into their own hands and ignore team plays. Is it Hero ball when JB runs iso off a spread set? So why is it Hero ball when it's clear Thibs is running a spread set for Randle to post up. Can he make better reads, yes, but stop with the "hero ball" brush to paint a selfish tone.
More rebounds? We not talking about Obi. Randle just had 14 and usually leads the team.
His defensive effort has been there all year. Made some blocks this year that we did not ever see before.
These narratives are old man. Stop trying to rekindle them. We all know you are an Obi lover and can't take that your view on Randle was shortsighted.
Some of us fought you guys all summer with the BS that Randle was garbage because of yet another 20/10 year. Just because the rest of the team was crap.
The knowledgeable fans knew the relevance of not having a true PG, the consistent historical production, the physicality he exhibit every year since being drafted and the reasonable contract he has.
Fact is, Randle is a beast. He is a fighter. Tough sob. He has all the tools that makes him the best player on the court on most games. He was last night. Does he need to improve his bball IQ? Absolutely. But so does every player on the planet.
We need more players like him. Not less.

500 words on heroball? Heroball is when you drive right into your defender and turn the ball over, when there are better options. Randle has done that plenty of times. If you want to spin that into it being part of Thibs plan, be my guest.

Hard to converse with someone with such an acute hypersensitivity to any criticism of a basketball player. Most of my comments in that post were positive. But you freaked out over one criticism, and wrote War and Peace.

If this is how you want to do it. Try converting someone else. Pass