Derrick Rose
the worst second round pick they

for

Tony Bradley
Javonte Green
a second round pick

Rookie wrote:NY to Chi
D. Rose
I Hartenstein
C. Reddish
2 First Rd Picks NY 2023 & 2025 protected 1-10
1 First Rd pick 2023 Dallas

Chi to NY
D. Derozan
A. Drummond

Why do I do this? Derozan is a 4th Q killer. He can score from anywhere but excels from the midrange. He compliments what we already have and is a talent upgrade even at 33 years old. He expires after next season and would be an affordable at a reasonable veteran contract so I'm confident we can retain him. We would still be cap friendly for FA's in 2025. He is a veteran with playoff experience. Drummond can still score in the post. We need guys who can defend and score in the 2nd unit. Rose gets his feel good story return to Chicago.

Love DeRozan. Should have signed him when he was available.
Not sure he is good fit as he takes up much of the same real estate where RJ, JB and JR like roam . He also needs his shots and Knicks would have yet another added to their big three who do as well. (see issue fitting with Lavine)
Trading for him now will not happen.
I am with what the FO seems to have as a strategy.
Feel that is to store up assets in case a YOUNG game changer becomes available.
Add relatively low cost options to help win now.
Use assets to target their picks in the draft.
I don't see the FO giving up all that for a guy that will be looking for a big pay day at the latter of his career.
Focus should be to move parts that are not playing, maybe move young pieces you don't feel will develop (although feel that will happen in the off season and right before draft), add assets to either move up in draft or jump on a young game changer that becomes available.

martin wrote:Whose minutes are Derozan taking away?

Grimes' and RJ's. Literally the 2 guys you want to keep at near 30+ range. I don't see where the minutes come from.

And let's be honest, Derozan did not play well in any of the playoffs he was in during his prime Toronto days. Could have been the team, could have been him, but his shooting and especially his 3pt shooting was putrid. He literally choked multiple times such that his coach sat him during the playoffs.

I'm for making a splash but for a player that ADDS to the roster, not duplicates it.

You start with the obvious, Deuce's minutes. Deuce becomes situational. From there, Some from Grimes and RJ. Neither needs to be playing more than 34+ minutes. At the end of games you got with who is needed and playing well. It's still a 9 man rotation.

Derozan was 2nd in the league in clutch points last season so the Toronto argument doesn't seem that relevant anymore. He is 8th this season. Brunson is 3rd

Derozan is not a 3pt shooter. He averages 1.4 attempts per game this season.

As for adding to the roster and not duplicating, OG Anunoby is 26 before next season. What does he add the Grimes doesn't already do and Grimes is here and barely makes a dent in the salary cap. Who's minutes is Anunoby taking?

Rookie wrote:

martin wrote:Whose minutes are Derozan taking away?

Grimes' and RJ's. Literally the 2 guys you want to keep at near 30+ range. I don't see where the minutes come from.

And let's be honest, Derozan did not play well in any of the playoffs he was in during his prime Toronto days. Could have been the team, could have been him, but his shooting and especially his 3pt shooting was putrid. He literally choked multiple times such that his coach sat him during the playoffs.

I'm for making a splash but for a player that ADDS to the roster, not duplicates it.

You start with the obvious, Deuce's minutes. Deuce becomes situational. From there, Some from Grimes and RJ. Neither needs to be playing more than 34+ minutes. At the end of games you got with who is needed and playing well. It's still a 9 man rotation.

Derozan was 2nd in the league in clutch points last season so the Toronto argument doesn't seem that relevant anymore. He is 8th this season. Brunson is 3rd

Derozan is not a 3pt shooter. He averages 1.4 attempts per game this season.

As for adding to the roster and not duplicating, OG Anunoby is 26 before next season. What does he add the Grimes doesn't already do and Grimes is here and barely makes a dent in the salary cap. Who's minutes is Anunoby taking?

Quite frankly, I don't think you are really looking at the numbers and what is best for the team. Look at both sides of the argument instead of just locking in on one side.

For starters, RJ and Grimes are averaging 34 and 30 minutes and McBride is in the 13 minutes range. Take 10 minutes away from each to give to a guy like DeRozan and it's not realistic minutes distribution and you are taking dev minutes away from key guys.

OG can be a PF, to lesson Randle minutes (with the assumption that Obi is going to TOR in that trade), that's his biggest differentiation from Grimes.

Grimes is a SG and POA defender. You want OG along side Grimes. Both are switchable and can guard 1-3 and OG can very easily play PF.

In an ideal situation with OG - and this is my ideal situation realistically - you move RJ to the bench so that he can be an offensive focal point.

martin wrote:

Rookie wrote:

martin wrote:Whose minutes are Derozan taking away?

Grimes' and RJ's. Literally the 2 guys you want to keep at near 30+ range. I don't see where the minutes come from.

And let's be honest, Derozan did not play well in any of the playoffs he was in during his prime Toronto days. Could have been the team, could have been him, but his shooting and especially his 3pt shooting was putrid. He literally choked multiple times such that his coach sat him during the playoffs.

I'm for making a splash but for a player that ADDS to the roster, not duplicates it.

You start with the obvious, Deuce's minutes. Deuce becomes situational. From there, Some from Grimes and RJ. Neither needs to be playing more than 34+ minutes. At the end of games you got with who is needed and playing well. It's still a 9 man rotation.

Derozan was 2nd in the league in clutch points last season so the Toronto argument doesn't seem that relevant anymore. He is 8th this season. Brunson is 3rd

Derozan is not a 3pt shooter. He averages 1.4 attempts per game this season.

As for adding to the roster and not duplicating, OG Anunoby is 26 before next season. What does he add the Grimes doesn't already do and Grimes is here and barely makes a dent in the salary cap. Who's minutes is Anunoby taking?

Quite frankly, I don't think you are really looking at the numbers and what is best for the team. Look at both sides of the argument instead of just locking in on one side.

For starters, RJ and Grimes are averaging 34 and 30 minutes and McBride is in the 13 minutes range. Take 10 minutes away from each to give to a guy like DeRozan and it's not realistic minutes distribution and you are taking dev minutes away from key guys.

OG can be a PF, to lesson Randle minutes (with the assumption that Obi is going to TOR in that trade), that's his biggest differentiation from Grimes.

Grimes is a SG and POA defender. You want OG along side Grimes. Both are switchable and can guard 1-3 and OG can very easily play PF.

In an ideal situation with OG - and this is my ideal situation realistically - you move RJ to the bench so that he can be an offensive focal point.

It's the same scenario. You are inserting a guy into the rotation who needs starters minutes without removing a player who is getting starters minutes. Exactly the same. OG likes to stand in the corner and either shoot or attack the close out. That is exactly what Grimes already does except Grimes also operates from the top of the key and off the dribble. Anunoby is not as good of a shooter from the top of the arc, he likes the short three from the corner. He is also going to cost more to obtain, so maybe minutes aren't an issue if you are trading Grimes and IQ but I'm not trading those guys for Anunoby. Ujiiri is going to want good young players AND picks ala Ainge. Is Anunoby a FA or RFA after next season?

I'll also argue that when the offense bogs down and can't score, Derozan can get you buckets, create his own shot and create for others. Anunoby ain't doing that

martin wrote:

Rookie wrote:

martin wrote:

Rookie wrote:

martin wrote:Whose minutes are Derozan taking away?

Grimes' and RJ's. Literally the 2 guys you want to keep at near 30+ range. I don't see where the minutes come from.

And let's be honest, Derozan did not play well in any of the playoffs he was in during his prime Toronto days. Could have been the team, could have been him, but his shooting and especially his 3pt shooting was putrid. He literally choked multiple times such that his coach sat him during the playoffs.

I'm for making a splash but for a player that ADDS to the roster, not duplicates it.

You start with the obvious, Deuce's minutes. Deuce becomes situational. From there, Some from Grimes and RJ. Neither needs to be playing more than 34+ minutes. At the end of games you got with who is needed and playing well. It's still a 9 man rotation.

Derozan was 2nd in the league in clutch points last season so the Toronto argument doesn't seem that relevant anymore. He is 8th this season. Brunson is 3rd

Derozan is not a 3pt shooter. He averages 1.4 attempts per game this season.

As for adding to the roster and not duplicating, OG Anunoby is 26 before next season. What does he add the Grimes doesn't already do and Grimes is here and barely makes a dent in the salary cap. Who's minutes is Anunoby taking?

Quite frankly, I don't think you are really looking at the numbers and what is best for the team. Look at both sides of the argument instead of just locking in on one side.

For starters, RJ and Grimes are averaging 34 and 30 minutes and McBride is in the 13 minutes range. Take 10 minutes away from each to give to a guy like DeRozan and it's not realistic minutes distribution and you are taking dev minutes away from key guys.

OG can be a PF, to lesson Randle minutes (with the assumption that Obi is going to TOR in that trade), that's his biggest differentiation from Grimes.

Grimes is a SG and POA defender. You want OG along side Grimes. Both are switchable and can guard 1-3 and OG can very easily play PF.

In an ideal situation with OG - and this is my ideal situation realistically - you move RJ to the bench so that he can be an offensive focal point.

It's the same scenario. You are inserting a guy into the rotation who needs starters minutes without removing a player who is getting starters minutes. Exactly the same. OG likes to stand in the corner and either shoot or attack the close out. That is exactly what Grimes already does except Grimes also operates from the top of the key and off the dribble. Anunoby is not as good of a shooter from the top of the arc, he likes the short three from the corner. He is also going to cost more to obtain, so maybe minutes aren't an issue if you are trading Grimes and IQ but I'm not trading those guys for Anunoby. Ujiiri is going to want good young players AND picks ala Ainge. Is Anunoby a FA or RFA after next season?

I'll also argue that when the offense bogs down and can't score, Derozan can get you buckets, create his own shot and create for others. Anunoby ain't doing that

What part of playing PF and also taking Obi's minutes did you miss? I also did mention that I would move RJ to the bench.

In one scenario, DeRozan is taking away minutes from primarily Grimes and RJ.

OG would primarily take minutes away from Randle, Obi, RJ.

Derozan would be getting McBrides minutes, Anunoby Obi's. Obi averages 16 minutes. Grimes averages 13.4 minutes. The balance of the minutes have to come from somewhere else in each scenario.

Can Anunoby create his own shot or create for others? You forgot to address that or the difference in the cost of acquiring either player. OG is going to cost more than Obi if they even want Obi. I can see them wanting IQ and Grimes for OG

martin wrote:

Rookie wrote:

martin wrote:

Rookie wrote:

martin wrote:

Rookie wrote:

martin wrote:Whose minutes are Derozan taking away?

Grimes' and RJ's. Literally the 2 guys you want to keep at near 30+ range. I don't see where the minutes come from.

And let's be honest, Derozan did not play well in any of the playoffs he was in during his prime Toronto days. Could have been the team, could have been him, but his shooting and especially his 3pt shooting was putrid. He literally choked multiple times such that his coach sat him during the playoffs.

I'm for making a splash but for a player that ADDS to the roster, not duplicates it.

You start with the obvious, Deuce's minutes. Deuce becomes situational. From there, Some from Grimes and RJ. Neither needs to be playing more than 34+ minutes. At the end of games you got with who is needed and playing well. It's still a 9 man rotation.

Derozan was 2nd in the league in clutch points last season so the Toronto argument doesn't seem that relevant anymore. He is 8th this season. Brunson is 3rd

Derozan is not a 3pt shooter. He averages 1.4 attempts per game this season.

As for adding to the roster and not duplicating, OG Anunoby is 26 before next season. What does he add the Grimes doesn't already do and Grimes is here and barely makes a dent in the salary cap. Who's minutes is Anunoby taking?

Quite frankly, I don't think you are really looking at the numbers and what is best for the team. Look at both sides of the argument instead of just locking in on one side.

For starters, RJ and Grimes are averaging 34 and 30 minutes and McBride is in the 13 minutes range. Take 10 minutes away from each to give to a guy like DeRozan and it's not realistic minutes distribution and you are taking dev minutes away from key guys.

OG can be a PF, to lesson Randle minutes (with the assumption that Obi is going to TOR in that trade), that's his biggest differentiation from Grimes.

Grimes is a SG and POA defender. You want OG along side Grimes. Both are switchable and can guard 1-3 and OG can very easily play PF.

In an ideal situation with OG - and this is my ideal situation realistically - you move RJ to the bench so that he can be an offensive focal point.

It's the same scenario. You are inserting a guy into the rotation who needs starters minutes without removing a player who is getting starters minutes. Exactly the same. OG likes to stand in the corner and either shoot or attack the close out. That is exactly what Grimes already does except Grimes also operates from the top of the key and off the dribble. Anunoby is not as good of a shooter from the top of the arc, he likes the short three from the corner. He is also going to cost more to obtain, so maybe minutes aren't an issue if you are trading Grimes and IQ but I'm not trading those guys for Anunoby. Ujiiri is going to want good young players AND picks ala Ainge. Is Anunoby a FA or RFA after next season?

I'll also argue that when the offense bogs down and can't score, Derozan can get you buckets, create his own shot and create for others. Anunoby ain't doing that

What part of playing PF and also taking Obi's minutes did you miss? I also did mention that I would move RJ to the bench.

In one scenario, DeRozan is taking away minutes from primarily Grimes and RJ.

OG would primarily take minutes away from Randle, Obi, RJ.

Derozan would be getting McBrides minutes, Anunoby Obi's. Obi averages 16 minutes. Grimes averages 13.4 minutes. The balance of the minutes have to come from somewhere else in each scenario.

Can Anunoby create his own shot or create for others? You forgot to address that or the difference in the cost of acquiring either player. OG is going to cost more than Obi if they even want Obi. I can see them wanting IQ and Grimes for OG

You think DeRozan is going to get PF minutes? He is a 6'6" player. The Knicks want to rebound and play defense and pound teams.

I am not addressing the "create your own shot" scenario because you and I are not there, unless you also want to address each of the additional strengths that OG has that DeRozan doesn't, like elite defense.

This is not a zero sum game.

So you also have Brunson. One of the reasons Brunson is playing heavy minutes is because of the fall off with the second unit. IQ can't do it all. IQ, Derozan, Barrett could do some work. You can go small and go with them plus Grimes and Randle at the 5 so you get some of Obi's minutes.

Brunson is averaging 40 minutes the last 10 games. Randle 40. IQ 35. Barrett 37. Grimes 35. Obi 10. This shouldn't be that hard to figure out for a coach as good as Thibs.

13 minutes from Deuce
4 minutes from Brunson
5 minutes from Barrtett
4 minutes from Grimes
4 minutes from Randle/Obi

That's 30 or 26 without Obi/randle minutes. That ain't nothin'. Thibs has been going more with small ball to close games lately so there's minutes to be had there also.

Do you want to go through the same exercise for OG Anunoby because it's the same. All I am saying is you can find the minutes, it not that hard. Maybe a 33 year old Derozan plays 24 minutes? I don't know but I do know it's not as hard as you try to make it sound

martin wrote:

Rookie wrote:

martin wrote:

Rookie wrote:

martin wrote:

Rookie wrote:

martin wrote:

Rookie wrote:

martin wrote:Whose minutes are Derozan taking away?

Grimes' and RJ's. Literally the 2 guys you want to keep at near 30+ range. I don't see where the minutes come from.

And let's be honest, Derozan did not play well in any of the playoffs he was in during his prime Toronto days. Could have been the team, could have been him, but his shooting and especially his 3pt shooting was putrid. He literally choked multiple times such that his coach sat him during the playoffs.

I'm for making a splash but for a player that ADDS to the roster, not duplicates it.

You start with the obvious, Deuce's minutes. Deuce becomes situational. From there, Some from Grimes and RJ. Neither needs to be playing more than 34+ minutes. At the end of games you got with who is needed and playing well. It's still a 9 man rotation.

Derozan was 2nd in the league in clutch points last season so the Toronto argument doesn't seem that relevant anymore. He is 8th this season. Brunson is 3rd

Derozan is not a 3pt shooter. He averages 1.4 attempts per game this season.

As for adding to the roster and not duplicating, OG Anunoby is 26 before next season. What does he add the Grimes doesn't already do and Grimes is here and barely makes a dent in the salary cap. Who's minutes is Anunoby taking?

Quite frankly, I don't think you are really looking at the numbers and what is best for the team. Look at both sides of the argument instead of just locking in on one side.

For starters, RJ and Grimes are averaging 34 and 30 minutes and McBride is in the 13 minutes range. Take 10 minutes away from each to give to a guy like DeRozan and it's not realistic minutes distribution and you are taking dev minutes away from key guys.

OG can be a PF, to lesson Randle minutes (with the assumption that Obi is going to TOR in that trade), that's his biggest differentiation from Grimes.

Grimes is a SG and POA defender. You want OG along side Grimes. Both are switchable and can guard 1-3 and OG can very easily play PF.

In an ideal situation with OG - and this is my ideal situation realistically - you move RJ to the bench so that he can be an offensive focal point.

It's the same scenario. You are inserting a guy into the rotation who needs starters minutes without removing a player who is getting starters minutes. Exactly the same. OG likes to stand in the corner and either shoot or attack the close out. That is exactly what Grimes already does except Grimes also operates from the top of the key and off the dribble. Anunoby is not as good of a shooter from the top of the arc, he likes the short three from the corner. He is also going to cost more to obtain, so maybe minutes aren't an issue if you are trading Grimes and IQ but I'm not trading those guys for Anunoby. Ujiiri is going to want good young players AND picks ala Ainge. Is Anunoby a FA or RFA after next season?

I'll also argue that when the offense bogs down and can't score, Derozan can get you buckets, create his own shot and create for others. Anunoby ain't doing that

What part of playing PF and also taking Obi's minutes did you miss? I also did mention that I would move RJ to the bench.

In one scenario, DeRozan is taking away minutes from primarily Grimes and RJ.

OG would primarily take minutes away from Randle, Obi, RJ.

Derozan would be getting McBrides minutes, Anunoby Obi's. Obi averages 16 minutes. Grimes averages 13.4 minutes. The balance of the minutes have to come from somewhere else in each scenario.

Can Anunoby create his own shot or create for others? You forgot to address that or the difference in the cost of acquiring either player. OG is going to cost more than Obi if they even want Obi. I can see them wanting IQ and Grimes for OG

You think DeRozan is going to get PF minutes? He is a 6'6" player. The Knicks want to rebound and play defense and pound teams.

I am not addressing the "create your own shot" scenario because you and I are not there, unless you also want to address each of the additional strengths that OG has that DeRozan doesn't, like elite defense.

This is not a zero sum game.

So you also have Brunson. One of the reasons Brunson is playing heavy minutes is because of the fall off with the second unit. IQ can't do it all. IQ, Derozan, Barrett could do some work. You can go small and go with them plus Grimes and Randle at the 5 so you get some of Obi's minutes.

Brunson is averaging 40 minutes the last 10 games. Randle 40. IQ 35. Barrett 37. Grimes 35. Obi 10. This shouldn't be that hard to figure out for a coach as good as Thibs.

13 minutes from Deuce
4 minutes from Brunson
5 minutes from Barrtett
4 minutes from Grimes
4 minutes from Randle/Obi

That's 30 or 26 without Obi/randle minutes. That ain't nothin'. Thibs has been going more with small ball to close games lately so there's minutes to be had there also.

Do you want to go through the same exercise for OG Anunoby because it's the same. All I am saying is you can find the minutes, it not that hard. Maybe a 33 year old Derozan plays 24 minutes? I don't know but I do know it's not as hard as you try to make it sound

For me, the challenge wasn't really to show that you could bring down the rotation minutes for players of what just happened in the last 10 games.

The challenge is does the player make sense over the course of normal rotation minutes - cause a bunch of those last 10 games includes those exact players not playing at all. Brunson missed 2, RJ a bunch, Obi a bunch.

This is the nutshell for me:

DeRozan is not a proven playoff player, he is in fact the opposite, he has SUCKED.

Trading 3 FRPs for a guy who is on the cusp of 34 yo is NUTS (this is not CP3). Trading for the type of player who could leave after a year is also NUTS unless you have long term plans for that player (extending him, and that would mean extending DeMar at ages 35, 36 & 37yo).

Trading for a 33 year old player who will take development minutes away from Grimes, RJ, McBride is WHACK especially when you consider it probably won't make a real dent in your playoff picture (literally maybe DeMar gets you a game or 2 and that's it).

Trading for a player who has the same high Usage as 3 other players on your team is a recipe for DISASTER cause someone is going to lose out in not the good way (the good way is when Brunson takes ball out of Randle's hands).

DeMar's downsides are exactly the type of player you don't want on this team. Defense. Distance shooting. He will bring midrange ISO but that also conflicts with what Brunson and Randle and RJ already bring. I don't think adding that type of offense that is already plentiful on this team is a good idea.

The cost for an OG type will be more, no doubt. But IMHO what he brings and how I envision it maneuvering has a ton more upside than DeMar without all of the downside risks.

Derozan might iso, but he doesn't hold the ball. He either shoots or passes, and he is a VERY good passer. The idea is to add someone who can get efficient scoring when the team bogs down and can't score. He is not a perfect fit, but if he was he would be unobtainable. His defense is bad, he doesn't shoot from distance but he can play on ball or off. I think he will be obtainable. Is he available for 1 frp and a young player? That sounds low to me. I do get that 3 fry's sounds high but we are not giving up any players and the picks are all out of the lottery (20-25 range). Still, I get your argument except for the part that he would crap the bed in the playoffs now.

How I would use Derozan is to bring him off the bench with IQ at the 5 minute mark and sub out RJ and Brunson. In the 2nd Q I would bring RJ back in and rest Grimes. Brunson would then come back in for either IQ of Derozan. Pretty much how Thibs has been subbing except now we have more scoring with the second unit much like how we used Burks with Rose and IQ before Burks became PG Burks. I think it makes us better and I think Derozan will become available. I just don't see the downside of adding a vet, 5 time Allstar, 3 time all NBA player even at 33 years old.

I don't think he duplicates what we already have, I see him more in the Alec Burks role and we know that worked before Rose got hurt and Burks became the starting PG.

martin wrote:Whose minutes are Derozan taking away?

Grimes' and RJ's. Literally the 2 guys you want to keep at near 30+ range. I don't see where the minutes come from.

And let's be honest, Derozan did not play well in any of the playoffs he was in during his prime Toronto days. Could have been the team, could have been him, but his shooting and especially his 3pt shooting was putrid. He literally choked multiple times such that his coach sat him during the playoffs.

I'm for making a splash but for a player that ADDS to the roster, not duplicates it.

Derozan can’t shoot the 3 and likely won’t get the litany of bs garbage calls here that he gets in Chicago driving to the basket