blkexec wrote:

Panos wrote:I also think a lot of posters just repeat what they read here like an echo chamber without bothering to look up the facts.

I also think a lot of posters just look at stats instead of the game. Throw the stats in the trash and just watch the game.

Also, if this was about Thibs giving too many minutes to his players, that conversation is old, dead and gone (almost 2-3 years ago). But I'm sure people will talk about it over and over and over, because there's nothing else to talk about I guess, until the knicks make a spash move at the trade deadline.

What the knicks need to focus on is not what everybody else in the league is doing.

Whats important is getting the best out of the players we have period. And if giving them the league average in mins per game, is causing more missed free throws, TO's and bad play in the 4th. That means something has to change, thats it.

1. Get in shape
2. Reduce minutes
3. Make a trade

But to post a link then say the Thibs hate is overblown, is gas lighting. What are we trying to accomplish by bringing up a discussion that was dead 3yrs ago. Back when we hired Thibs, thats what label came with Thibs. And thats also when these links came out saying Thibs doesn't over play his players, according to the stats. So......... Why are we creating this thread again? Sorry I missed that part.

So explain to me again why Thibs’ minutes distribution discussion is 2 to 3 years old and it’s pointless to bring up?

( You can go look at last night’s game thread and point that out to all those whining about it that the topic was dead 3 years ago.).

blkexec wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Panos wrote:I also think a lot of posters just repeat what they read here like an echo chamber without bothering to look up the facts.

I also think a lot of posters just look at stats instead of the game. Throw the stats in the trash and just watch the game.

Also, if this was about Thibs giving too many minutes to his players, that conversation is old, dead and gone (almost 2-3 years ago). But I'm sure people will talk about it over and over and over, because there's nothing else to talk about I guess, until the knicks make a spash move at the trade deadline.

What the knicks need to focus on is not what everybody else in the league is doing.

Whats important is getting the best out of the players we have period. And if giving them the league average in mins per game, is causing more missed free throws, TO's and bad play in the 4th. That means something has to change, thats it.

1. Get in shape
2. Reduce minutes
3. Make a trade

But to post a link then say the Thibs hate is overblown, is gas lighting. What are we trying to accomplish by bringing up a discussion that was dead 3yrs ago. Back when we hired Thibs, thats what label came with Thibs. And thats also when these links came out saying Thibs doesn't over play his players, according to the stats. So......... Why are we creating this thread again? Sorry I missed that part.

So explain to me again why Thibs’ minutes distribution discussion is 2 to 3 years old and it’s pointless to bring up?

( You can go look at last night’s game thread and point that out to all those whining about it that the topic was dead 3 years ago.).

The topic I said was dead was Thibs total minutes distribution over the course of a season. Posters on this site has personally responded to this statement I made 3 years ago. That statement / discussion was dead, when multiple posters said All coaches lean heavy on their best players and all coaches play their best players heavy minutes. So just for me personally, I'm not going to argue against that, there's no point. If the data says something different from what my eyes see, no problem.

My current argument is simple. Just because other coaches do the same (play starting unit heavy minutes), doesn't mean that works for this current team. And we can see that in crunch time. This could be a precursor to what we will see in the playoffs.

Now to Joe's point. Fans complain when Thibs played a deep roster (I don't remember anybody complaining about that). I due remember fans complaining that we are not winning games. And thats when Thibs went with his classic 9 man rotation....lead to an 8 game winning streak. And the rest is history. So looks like this team is stuck between a rock and a hard place. We cant win consistently when Thibs plays 10 or 11 guys. And when he shortens the rotation, we start winning more games, but we also show signs of fatigue and tired legs.

This is why I said Thibs is a perfect coach for an all star team or starting 5 with all star players who are used to playing heavy minutes, without their performance taking a hit. Personally I don't think we have a roster that fits Thibs rotation style and we don't have a roster filled with players he can trust. Is that Thibs fault? Or the FO fault, who hired Thibs and provided the roster for Thibs to manage? Or is it even possible to find the players Thibs trust and are those players available? If not, then whats next? Stay the course? I'm going to assume if we stay the course, and get knocked out of the first round, whats next? Will fans still want to hold onto Thibs and hope he changes or does this put pressure on the FO to find players Thibs prefer? I'm not sure there's enough available players to meets Thibs criteria. But I could be wrong.

So the topic is dead because you and others addressed it 3 years ago and because you say so -- got it!

I will say it is a tiresome topic and I am quite prepared to move on. Go Knicks.

KnickDanger wrote:

blkexec wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Panos wrote:I also think a lot of posters just repeat what they read here like an echo chamber without bothering to look up the facts.

I also think a lot of posters just look at stats instead of the game. Throw the stats in the trash and just watch the game.

Also, if this was about Thibs giving too many minutes to his players, that conversation is old, dead and gone (almost 2-3 years ago). But I'm sure people will talk about it over and over and over, because there's nothing else to talk about I guess, until the knicks make a spash move at the trade deadline.

What the knicks need to focus on is not what everybody else in the league is doing.

Whats important is getting the best out of the players we have period. And if giving them the league average in mins per game, is causing more missed free throws, TO's and bad play in the 4th. That means something has to change, thats it.

1. Get in shape
2. Reduce minutes
3. Make a trade

But to post a link then say the Thibs hate is overblown, is gas lighting. What are we trying to accomplish by bringing up a discussion that was dead 3yrs ago. Back when we hired Thibs, thats what label came with Thibs. And thats also when these links came out saying Thibs doesn't over play his players, according to the stats. So......... Why are we creating this thread again? Sorry I missed that part.

So explain to me again why Thibs’ minutes distribution discussion is 2 to 3 years old and it’s pointless to bring up?

( You can go look at last night’s game thread and point that out to all those whining about it that the topic was dead 3 years ago.).

The topic I said was dead was Thibs total minutes distribution over the course of a season. Posters on this site has personally responded to this statement I made 3 years ago. That statement / discussion was dead, when multiple posters said All coaches lean heavy on their best players and all coaches play their best players heavy minutes. So just for me personally, I'm not going to argue against that, there's no point. If the data says something different from what my eyes see, no problem.

My current argument is simple. Just because other coaches do the same (play starting unit heavy minutes), doesn't mean that works for this current team. And we can see that in crunch time. This could be a precursor to what we will see in the playoffs.

Now to Joe's point. Fans complain when Thibs played a deep roster (I don't remember anybody complaining about that). I due remember fans complaining that we are not winning games. And thats when Thibs went with his classic 9 man rotation....lead to an 8 game winning streak. And the rest is history. So looks like this team is stuck between a rock and a hard place. We cant win consistently when Thibs plays 10 or 11 guys. And when he shortens the rotation, we start winning more games, but we also show signs of fatigue and tired legs.

This is why I said Thibs is a perfect coach for an all star team or starting 5 with all star players who are used to playing heavy minutes, without their performance taking a hit. Personally I don't think we have a roster that fits Thibs rotation style and we don't have a roster filled with players he can trust. Is that Thibs fault? Or the FO fault, who hired Thibs and provided the roster for Thibs to manage? Or is it even possible to find the players Thibs trust and are those players available? If not, then whats next? Stay the course? I'm going to assume if we stay the course, and get knocked out of the first round, whats next? Will fans still want to hold onto Thibs and hope he changes or does this put pressure on the FO to find players Thibs prefer? I'm not sure there's enough available players to meets Thibs criteria. But I could be wrong.

So the topic is dead because you and others addressed it 3 years ago and because you say so -- got it!

I will say it is a tiresome topic and I am quite prepared to move on. Go Knicks.

Exactly. And to clarify, topic being dead was from my perspective. In general this topic is as alive as ever. Personally I’m just tired of talking about it. Didn’t mean to say everybody should stop discussing it. I don’t have or want that power. I still think there’s discussion to be had and I would love to listen. But I’ve said all I can about thibs. And I’ve heard it all from both or all sides.

Remember when they just out grind you in the 4th qtr to win games? Marv Albert used to say they were the best conditioned team in the league and it showed in crunch time.

That was 90s players.

Now it's "the coach plays him too much, his legs are tired"

Like this version of the NBA is easier.... I thought athletes were getting BETTER. Toronto's guys played the exact same minutes ours did.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/1993.html
Ewing played 81 games and 37 minutes. Its almosts like Riley didnt trust his bench

blkexec wrote:Nalod, not sure why you have to over exaggerate this just to make your point. It convolutes the discussion. Don’t have to say what coaches can do, then throw thibs in there. Just look at his current knick history.

The atl series was more than tired legs. It was also a lack of preparation for those double teams Randle couldn’t handle. And without JB on the team to help alleviate pressure from Randle, it was a tough series.

MDA style wasn’t built for the playoffs, unless he had his perfect roster of MDA players. You can say the same for thibs. His rotation strategy works during the regular season, but during the playoffs not so well (based on knick history).

The goal is not to win the regular season. The goal is to win a chip. Has thibs showed enough to say he’s the coach we need to win a chip?

Since we showed that we have what it takes to be a playoff team, the focus should shift from development to win now mode. Personally I’m not giving 4 of my 5 starters long term contracts to develop the yoots. We are expected to make the playoffs with this roster and definitely the playin.

So I don’t care how many games a coach wins in the regular season. Your career is judged by your success in the playoffs. The negative signs were there during the games we won. So I’m not surprised when we give up huge leads and lose by 1 or 2 points during most of our Ls. That’s called growth and on the job learning as a team.

But this hybrid development stuff doesn’t always work. Either we are moving towards being a playoff team or a development team.

So far thibs has created a defensive culture that I like and it’s a base we can build on, so that’s great news. What’s next for thibs and this team? Who the hell knows. The FO is tight lip and Thibs doesn’t provide a lot of information. So all we can do is sit back and hold on. Because there will be some turbulence on the horizon.

A coaches job is not to win a chip. It's to get his players to play to their potential.
If we had guys like Durant, Kyrie, Greek on one team then yes, coaches job is to win a chip.
Feel many are ignoring one simple thing when discussing minute distribution, which is thatt we do not have the talent depth we thought we had. Our first unit is playing a lot of minutes because our second unit is just not that good.
Grimes, IQ and Obi did well in previous years.
Hart and Deuce are not a chip team second unit.
Feel if we upgrade the second unit, minute issue will resolve itself.

blkexec wrote:Nalod, not sure why you have to over exaggerate this just to make your point. It convolutes the discussion. Don’t have to say what coaches can do, then throw thibs in there. Just look at his current knick history.

The atl series was more than tired legs. It was also a lack of preparation for those double teams Randle couldn’t handle. And without JB on the team to help alleviate pressure from Randle, it was a tough series.

MDA style wasn’t built for the playoffs, unless he had his perfect roster of MDA players. You can say the same for thibs. His rotation strategy works during the regular season, but during the playoffs not so well (based on knick history).

The goal is not to win the regular season. The goal is to win a chip. Has thibs showed enough to say he’s the coach we need to win a chip?

Since we showed that we have what it takes to be a playoff team, the focus should shift from development to win now mode. Personally I’m not giving 4 of my 5 starters long term contracts to develop the yoots. We are expected to make the playoffs with this roster and definitely the playin.

So I don’t care how many games a coach wins in the regular season. Your career is judged by your success in the playoffs. The negative signs were there during the games we won. So I’m not surprised when we give up huge leads and lose by 1 or 2 points during most of our Ls. That’s called growth and on the job learning as a team.

But this hybrid development stuff doesn’t always work. Either we are moving towards being a playoff team or a development team.

So far thibs has created a defensive culture that I like and it’s a base we can build on, so that’s great news. What’s next for thibs and this team? Who the hell knows. The FO is tight lip and Thibs doesn’t provide a lot of information. So all we can do is sit back and hold on. Because there will be some turbulence on the horizon.

Lets get to the playoffs first. That is not a given.
Your likley going to be critical of this team at seasons end becuase I doubt we win a chip.
Lets put it this way, expectations only get enhanced when you win the regular season. Anything shorter is "Well, we over played our guys".
Well, there are many factors to this. But, yours is about your agenda. Perhaps mine is about mine.
We have not shown we are a playoff team. That was two years ago in a short season.
Last year was not.

ToddTT wrote:MPG leaders...

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2023_per_game.html#per_game_stats::mp_per_g

 Rk  Player             Pos  Age   G  GS   MPG
---  ------             ---  ---  --  --  ----  
 19  Julius Randle       PF   28  45  45  35.7
 32  RJ Barrett          SG   22  39  39  34.4
 39  Jalen Brunson       PG   26  42  42  34.0
 89  Quentin Grimes      SG   22  34  29  29.5
116  Mitchell Robinson    C   24  37  36  27.4
120  Immanuel Quickley   PG   23  45   8  27.1
193  Isaiah Hartenstein   C   24  45   7  18.6
236  Miles McBride       PG   22  33   2  13.4
242  Jericho Sims         C   24  32   2  12.3

joec32033 wrote:The problem I am seeing here is there are two distinct discussions intersecting.

Discussion 1 is about Thibs history and reputation for how many minutes he played his teams in the past.

Discussion 2 is about the minutes that Thibs is playing his top guys currently.

I think discussion 1 is feeding into discussion 2, when I think both are mutually exclusive. Thibs reputation for running players so hard comes from 2 players, Luol Deng and Jimmy Butler (and for the time I don't think Butler's minutes were horrible)

Discussion 2 is about current minutes on his current team. The reality of the situation is if he doesn't play his best players heavy minutes, this team isn't going to win. With his current combination of players, this is the right combination to win. It's that simple. If the Knicks get him players that can give him production off the bench, my guess is he is going to play them. Right now with Rose aging (and the Knicks playing a very different way), Toppin regressing (He kinda has), and Deuce being a defensive designated hitter the bench is very weak.

I'll disagree that Thibs reputation is warranted. I agree that recently (recently being when the Knicks started winning) he has played his best players more minutes. But that is the choice right now.

A-Win more with certain players playing more minutes (up to a certain point in the season, the minutes allocation was a non issue).
B-Lose more while normalizing minutes.

All of it 100% spot on.

I'm all for playing Obi and McBride and bench more but understand that reality: Prob slide to play-in territory.

Right now the Knicks have had a weaker spot in their schedule, these are the winnable games against what is coming up. If the Knicks nail these next 3 games (like wining 2 out of 3) and then go with a wider rotation when they play Cavs, Celtics, Nets, Heat, Clips, 76ers I'd understand it.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/sny_knicks/status/1615848286157508616