BigDaddyG wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:If Reddish is lucky, he'll wind up on a lotto team that doesnt mind giving Cam lots of playing time. Time to become more consistent. Change his rep as a player.

Not for nothing but that's the type of role Cam was set up for here and he couldn't hold to it. He prob wanted to be the feature guy.

I question what team has a real role for him in a rebuilding situation. Maybe Detroit in the rotation ahead of knox?

My understanding is that Knox doesn't really get minutes. I thought about Charlotte, maybe. The lottery teams this year aren't as putrid in previous years and I'm having a hard figuring which of them would have the patience to give Cam a long leash.

There’s a lot of young guys in the league too. The rebuilding teams are loaded with guys who have upside and don’t have the contract situation that cam does. The nba is getting younger and better every year. I think his best spot is still with the lakers.

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:If Reddish is lucky, he'll wind up on a lotto team that doesnt mind giving Cam lots of playing time. Time to become more consistent. Change his rep as a player.

Not for nothing but that's the type of role Cam was set up for here and he couldn't hold to it. He prob wanted to be the feature guy.

Thibs wants to make the playoffs, so he wasnt going to give Cam the time he clearly needs to become more consistent.

A tanking for Wembanyana lottery team should be more patient.

He had the starting role and he fubar'ed it. Life comes at you fast some times and Cam missed it.

And not for nothing, if Thibs was just all-in on making the playoffs, Cam would be getting spot minutes on a depleted bench with zero wing players.

When I say "the PT he clearly needs" Its because the PT Thibs gave him didnt do the trick. He needs more time to develop.

The minutes Cam got were early in the season. Knowing what we know about Thibs, I seriously doubt that he is thinking about anything but making the playoffs. Its in his DNA.

What for you separates Thibs from every other non-tank coach that would distinguish him at a different level than every other coach out there?

Please tell me how you differentiate his DNA?

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:If Reddish is lucky, he'll wind up on a lotto team that doesnt mind giving Cam lots of playing time. Time to become more consistent. Change his rep as a player.

Not for nothing but that's the type of role Cam was set up for here and he couldn't hold to it. He prob wanted to be the feature guy.

Thibs wants to make the playoffs, so he wasnt going to give Cam the time he clearly needs to become more consistent.

A tanking for Wembanyana lottery team should be more patient.

He had the starting role and he fubar'ed it. Life comes at you fast some times and Cam missed it.

And not for nothing, if Thibs was just all-in on making the playoffs, Cam would be getting spot minutes on a depleted bench with zero wing players.

When I say "the PT he clearly needs" Its because the PT Thibs gave him didnt do the trick. He needs more time to develop.

The minutes Cam got were early in the season. Knowing what we know about Thibs, I seriously doubt that he is thinking about anything but making the playoffs. Its in his DNA.

What for you separates Thibs from every other non-tank coach that would distinguish him at a different level than every other coach out there?

Please tell me how you differentiate his DNA?

Well Martin, I guess you missed my lecture at Johns Hopkins about Thibs DNA, and the playoffs, blkexec was there.

Thousands of words written on this board (including yourself) about how Thibs has no life outside of hoops, is a bball lifer. Now all of a sudden he's just like every other coach.. WTF?

Thibs has set NBA records going back years, relying on starters. Thats a man who wants to win badly. I cant imagine Leon asking to Thibs to tank, would love to be in that room.

Every coach wants to win badly, you are not adding much there. And every playoff bound coach also plays their best players in the same realm as Thibs, zero difference give or take. In this regard, you are not making a differentiation, just a bland remark that doesn't really have any substance to it.

Every coach is smart enough to know whether his team is a playoff contender or not and it's readily obvious the Knicks are not a deep playoff team. You don't think coaches know this and are just oblivious to doing things that are outside of just win-now or win-all-the-time and or just solely focused on just making the playoffs?

After that it's about developing the guys and building the team, every coach also knows this and tries to put it in place.

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:If Reddish is lucky, he'll wind up on a lotto team that doesnt mind giving Cam lots of playing time. Time to become more consistent. Change his rep as a player.

Not for nothing but that's the type of role Cam was set up for here and he couldn't hold to it. He prob wanted to be the feature guy.

Thibs wants to make the playoffs, so he wasnt going to give Cam the time he clearly needs to become more consistent.

A tanking for Wembanyana lottery team should be more patient.

He had the starting role and he fubar'ed it. Life comes at you fast some times and Cam missed it.

And not for nothing, if Thibs was just all-in on making the playoffs, Cam would be getting spot minutes on a depleted bench with zero wing players.

When I say "the PT he clearly needs" Its because the PT Thibs gave him didnt do the trick. He needs more time to develop.

The minutes Cam got were early in the season. Knowing what we know about Thibs, I seriously doubt that he is thinking about anything but making the playoffs. Its in his DNA.

What for you separates Thibs from every other non-tank coach that would distinguish him at a different level than every other coach out there?

Please tell me how you differentiate his DNA?

Well Martin, I guess you missed my lecture at Johns Hopkins about Thibs DNA, and the playoffs, blkexec was there.

Thousands of words written on this board (including yourself) about how Thibs has no life outside of hoops, is a bball lifer. Now all of a sudden he's just like every other coach.. WTF?

Thibs has set NBA records going back years, relying on starters. Thats a man who wants to win badly. I cant imagine Leon asking to Thibs to tank, would love to be in that room.

Every coach wants to win badly, you are not adding much there. And every playoff bound coach also plays their best players in the same realm as Thibs, zero difference give or take. In this regard, you are not making a differentiation, just a bland remark that doesn't really have any substance to it.

Every coach is smart enough to know whether his team is a playoff contender or not and it's readily obvious the Knicks are not a deep playoff team. You don't think coaches know this and are just oblivious to doing things that are outside of just win-now or win-all-the-time and or just solely focused on just making the playoffs?

After that it's about developing the guys and building the team, every coach also knows this and tries to put it in place.

So everything you said regarding Thibs passion for the game was BS?

How many games did Thibs keep playing his starters, right to the end, even up by 20-30? Even when they would have to pull a Reggie Miller to beat us? Not many coaches do that. Yes, we have given up leads. Even Clyde has routinely pointed out that a starter should be sitting. How many coaches are that determined to protect a lead?

Does Thibs believe that he has a contender? I believe we both know the answer to that is no. Doesnt mean that he would be ok with tanking, while they have a chance to make the playoffs.

Im saying flat out that some coaches would be more agreeable. Would put up less of a fight than Thibs, if they were told the FO is more concerned with the next draft . Im surprised that this is getting so much pushback.

martin wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:He's clearly in the doghouse. The question is why exactly.

Yep.

He either asked for trade, wanted a bigger/different role in whole team dynamic (like at the RJ level, which wasn't going to happen until he proved himself at role player level), or just pissed off someone.

I'm guessing the last. And I'm guessing it was the coach.

BigDaddyG wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

martin wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:He's clearly in the doghouse. The question is why exactly.

Yep.

He either asked for trade, wanted a bigger/different role in whole team dynamic (like at the RJ level, which wasn't going to happen until he proved himself at role player level), or just pissed off someone.

I'm guessing the last. And I'm guessing it was the coach.

I wouldn't jump too quickly to that conclusion. Cam's situation follows his situation to a tee. Cam gets playing time to prove himself, has some bright spots but is benched due to inconsistency. "Rumors" come from Cam's camp that he wants to get traded to another team. Cam denies saying anything and waits patiently until he gets shipped to another team. I can understand things from Cam's standpoint, but I also have to question his will in the face of adversity.

Yep

KnickDanger wrote:

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

martin wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:He's clearly in the doghouse. The question is why exactly.

Yep.

He either asked for trade, wanted a bigger/different role in whole team dynamic (like at the RJ level, which wasn't going to happen until he proved himself at role player level), or just pissed off someone.

I'm guessing the last. And I'm guessing it was the coach.

I wouldn't jump too quickly to that conclusion. Cam's situation follows his situation to a tee. Cam gets playing time to prove himself, has some bright spots but is benched due to inconsistency. "Rumors" come from Cam's camp that he wants to get traded to another team. Cam denies saying anything and waits patiently until he gets shipped to another team. I can understand things from Cam's standpoint, but I also have to question his will in the face of adversity.

Yep

Just seemed odd to me that when Brunson, RJ, and Obi were all down Thibs went to Fournier and Cam didn't sniff a minute. He played some good minutes early in the season -- did that just evaporate? I'm not saying there aren't other factors or that Cam is a world beater being cheated of his destiny. And it would seem Cam hasn't created any drama to his credit. But we were short on bodies and he was glued to the bench. Just scratching my head that's all.

I think we all are.

Obi immediately coming in after injury must also have been a gut punch for Cam.

blkexec wrote:

martin wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

martin wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:He's clearly in the doghouse. The question is why exactly.

Yep.

He either asked for trade, wanted a bigger/different role in whole team dynamic (like at the RJ level, which wasn't going to happen until he proved himself at role player level), or just pissed off someone.

I'm guessing the last. And I'm guessing it was the coach.

I wouldn't jump too quickly to that conclusion. Cam's situation follows his situation to a tee. Cam gets playing time to prove himself, has some bright spots but is benched due to inconsistency. "Rumors" come from Cam's camp that he wants to get traded to another team. Cam denies saying anything and waits patiently until he gets shipped to another team. I can understand things from Cam's standpoint, but I also have to question his will in the face of adversity.

Yep

Just seemed odd to me that when Brunson, RJ, and Obi were all down Thibs went to Fournier and Cam didn't sniff a minute. He played some good minutes early in the season -- did that just evaporate? I'm not saying there aren't other factors or that Cam is a world beater being cheated of his destiny. And it would seem Cam hasn't created any drama to his credit. But we were short on bodies and he was glued to the bench. Just scratching my head that's all.

I think we all are.

Obi immediately coming in after injury must also have been a gut punch for Cam.

I struggled with this as well. But appears to be some inside stuff thats kept in house, for good reason I'm guessing. Especially if it could damage his trade value.

Cam is definitely on his way out. And EF contract will be more valuable next year as an expiring contract.

But this FO is patient and calculated with this Cam situation. Similar to how they move since day 1. I'm sure something is cooking.

blkexec wrote:

Well Martin, I guess you missed my lecture at Johns Hopkins about Thibs DNA, and the playoffs, blkexec was there

How did I get thrown into this. Don't put me in this Gus, I've had enough friction with all the Thibs lovers on UK site.

But I think even Thibs fans can agree that his distribution of minutes and the timing of them is questionable.

The results is how the players look gasped every 4th quarter. And I love the counter arguement. "Thibs mins are similar to every other NBA coach."

1. Just because every other coach is doing that, doesn't mean it's best for this team as constructed. I can see if we had a starting 5 with mostly all stars and a superstar (or anything close). We have a group of young over achievers. Brunson never played this many minutes. Jules is a 3 quarter player. RJ clanks a few free throws in the 4th. And the TOs is crazy, especially the unforced ones).

2. It's also the timing of those minutes, and inconsistency. EF goes from not playing to playing 9 minutes in crunch time? RJ goes from out for days, with a serious finger injury, to playin 41 mins his first game back? I can go on and on. Just some weird stuff from a well respected old school coach. I don't know if it's political, is it Thibs, or some combination.

Now what I do like is hes developing and winning at the same time. And the team fights for him. They have a great synergistic chemistry across the board.

Wasnt trying to drag you into anything blkexec. Didnt feel right mentioning your alma mater without a shoutout.

Ive criticized RJ for taking it to the rim the same way every time. Hitting the same spot on the backboard, and missing. Since then, his footwork has gotten much better IMO. And he's doing a better job of using the glass.

For most of RJ's time here, he's been a strong 4th quarter finisher. In time Im confident RJ will be more clutch.

As I wrote in the game thread, Randle knew he was having an off night and chose to be mostly a distributor/Rebounder in the 4th. Too many games it didnt matter to Randle what kind of a night he was having. Thats a big reason why I believe we withstood that late run.

I agree with the inconsistency in minutes, but also understand that coaches are going on instinct about a player as well. RJ played too much, but believe the minutes distribution of IQ/Grimes was spot on.

Its a mixed bag with Thibs, and thats probably why the debates gets so vigorous. I hope he can coach thw Knicks to a respectable showing in the playoffs. What that would be is for another debate.

joec32033 wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Well Martin, I guess you missed my lecture at Johns Hopkins about Thibs DNA, and the playoffs, blkexec was there

How did I get thrown into this. Don't put me in this Gus, I've had enough friction with all the Thibs lovers on UK site.

But I think even Thibs fans can agree that his distribution of minutes and the timing of them is questionable.

The results is how the players look gasped every 4th quarter. And I love the counter arguement. "Thibs mins are similar to every other NBA coach."

1. Just because every other coach is doing that, doesn't mean it's best for this team as constructed. I can see if we had a starting 5 with mostly all stars and a superstar (or anything close). We have a group of young over achievers. Brunson never played this many minutes. Jules is a 3 quarter player. RJ clanks a few free throws in the 4th. And the TOs is crazy, especially the unforced ones).

2. It's also the timing of those minutes, and inconsistency. EF goes from not playing to playing 9 minutes in crunch time? RJ goes from out for days, with a serious finger injury, to playin 41 mins his first game back? I can go on and on. Just some weird stuff from a well respected old school coach. I don't know if it's political, is it Thibs, or some combination.

Now what I do like is hes developing and winning at the same time. And the team fights for him. They have a great synergistic chemistry across the board.

While you may hate the argument it doesn't make that argument invalid.

1. "Just because every coach is doing it doesn't mean it the best for this team" is very valid. What makes it best for this team is that what he is doing is leading to winning. The argument can be made that the reason they are where they are-on a 46 win pace-because of how he has managed this team.
Brunson was a back up who was upgraded to #1 option. And we have whole thread on how the only trustable player in the clutch is currently Brunson, while RJ has shown some good signs and JR plays tight. You can't have it both ways. Can't blame the minutes for RJ and JR falling off then say Brunson plays the same "absurd" minutes but is the only clutch player we have. That is not a minutes issue, it's a testicular fortitude issue.

2. The timing of those minutes is we have a few really good players, then some players who are very specialized at what they do who are probably end of the rotation players on a winning team playing big minutes for them. Starting 5 is good. Quickley seems to have turned a corner. Deuce is a defensive sub on a good team. Hart is like Dudley with a corner 3. Toppin has been hurt and plays one side of the ball and needs someone to create for him. At best, pthe Knicks are 7 deep with consistent players that would have major roles on winning teams.

Why can't both statements be true (see bold)?