martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:

foosballnick wrote:LoL. People looking for anonymous kudos & gold stars = lots of insecurity IMHO. Show me all the posters who were clammoring for Burks to remain as PG last year. Many of us wanted to see more of Deuce IQ but at the same time realized thare might be more to it than fan curiosity and advanced metrics based on 5 minutes per game or garbage time minutes.

Situations are mostly complex and nuanced no matter how much fans want to make them obvious & simple.

Correction

IQ instead of a SF at point
Deuce as backup

Remember Rose and Kemba was out. Thibs went with Burks for several reasons. Politics and Defense

I didnt see anything wrong with IQ running the point. But Thibs has his defensive mentality which is why you see deuce now instead of rose (his God son). So thibs trust Burks defense over IQ and Deuce.

Truth be told Rose is the most established PG on the roster after JB. And he’s on the bench and out of rotation.

You either didn’t watch tha games closely enough or forgot.

IQ struggled for the first half and more of the season off of the bench and barely knew what to do with the ball in his hands. His reads off of plays weren’t good, think of a different version of RJ and what he is not seeing when he comes off of a PnR.

IQ picked up his play in the later third of season. You can still see shades of IQ faltering this year some but his breakdown ability is much better. IQ defensive chops makes up for anything he can’t do as a floor general but he has made tremendous strides.

It’s why I keep wondering if you actually watch full games cause you miss too much.

Also, truth be told, Rose has not played up to the level he has previously and his defense is really awful. He is even making weird mistakes we’ve not seen in the past, TOs, missed shots he normally makes, throwing the ball behind guys, etc.

I watch all the games Martin. And I agree with your response. Not sure what else I need to say. Yes you are correct. Still doesn’t change my mind play Burks at PG over IQ. I disagree and you agree. Why not leave it at that. I don’t have to agree with everything. Ok IQ wasn’t ready. Neither was Burks.

You need to say less quite frankly or at least think about what you are saying.

You have stated that you had a tryout for an NBA team as a guard and how does one with that much basketball background knowingly say stuff like “I didnt see anything wrong with IQ running the point” and then backtrack it faster than Thibs calls for a Randle sub after Obi makes 1 mistake on the court?

All you are establishing is that you will say anything to try make your point seemingly valid. Literally anything, like the opposite of reality of which you know is happening. You have firmly established that you will go there.

I don’t have to disagree with a lot of what you are posting, you voluntarily post wrong stuff and I just point it out.

I’ll repeat what others are thinking and saying: Most everyone knows that Burks ain’t a good PG, no one is defending or wanting Burks as a starting PG in the way you and Clean think they are in some weird black and white world where only right and wrong exist (and I’m glad we are now handing out gold stars now, that’s a keeper for me) and most are savvy enough to understand that there may be other good reason or context why waiting on IQ to get his development off bench was also an OK step to take.

Huge difference between wanting Burks as a PG or “defending” that stance versus thinking IQ and team is or isn’t ready for IQ starting.

There is so much wrong with just the first 4 lines. 😂
Nobody tried out for an nba team. Stop making up stuff.

Starting IQ wasn’t even that crazy of an idea. Plenty of fans was looking for a PG to replace a PG. Not a SF. 🤣 How can I back track when I’ve been consistent on that from the time Burks started and especially 10 games in when it was obviously the wrong move.

Waiting for IQ to finish developing, is fine. Playing a PF instead of one of the 2 PGs on your bench is where I disagree. That’s old man thinking. It’s clearly proven and well documented that players are adapting to the nba much quicker than they did in the past, especially players from Kentucky programs that run nba sets. So yes if all your PGs are not available and SF Burks looks like trash after 10 games, yes I put in IQ. Not sure why your wasting time on this. Thibs has his reasons. And IQ is clearly playing well and adapting to the nba very well. Please tell me why does it matter if I disagree with the ole mighty Thibs? It’s my opinion and guess what? Both IQ and Deuce are playing. At this point does it matter that u think I’m wrong? Nope.

Again, never tried out for an nba team. But thanks for the compliment. Too many side bar discussions in a 1 topic thread. So it’s easy to get details mixed up in a chat forum vs a discussion at a bar.

I believe the yoots were ready sooner. You believe they was not ready until thibs put them in. I respect your point and respect mine. Unless you rather continue to convince me otherwise, be my guess. Puff puff pass

Meanwhile Thibs is the best we can do right now. This FO is the best we can do right now. The main thing this organization needs is consistency. And if thibs 9 man rotation is the direction we are going fine. At least we have a plan. Now let’s stick to that plan and keep developing the yoots until the right star is drafted and traded.

Thibs has seemed pretty fair in terms of rotation minutes going to the guys playing best (outside of Randle JB and RJ). I think it's pretty interesting that Sims is playing at power forward in front of Reddish.

If JB is injured, what's the plan? Start Rose and put him on a minutes restriction? Start IQ and play him 38 minutes? More time for Deuce?

I don't really see Cam contributing to the team again. I feel like there's some mistrust between him and Thibs. But I also think that it's possible that Fournier and Rose have something to contribute sometime in the future.

blkexec wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:Thibs was hoping to start Grimes all season, thus the reluctance to include him in the Mitchell trade. That would mean his planned starters were JB RJ Grimes JR MR, the same crew we have now. I'm not sure if there's any narrative in somehow him playing his way past Thibs stubbornness. Deuce passing Rose is a bigger surprise and the spot was Rose's to lose.

Thibs has seemed pretty fair in terms of rotation minutes going to the guys playing best (outside of Randle JB and RJ). I think it's pretty interesting that Sims is playing at power forward in front of Reddish.

If JB is injured, what's the plan? Start Rose and put him on a minutes restriction? Start IQ and play him 38 minutes? More time for Deuce?

I don't really see Cam contributing to the team again. I feel like there's some mistrust between him and Thibs. But I also think that it's possible that Fournier and Rose have something to contribute sometime in the future.

You never know how much control Thibs had early on. Seems like he’s been operating in a political bubble. That’s the only way to explain his rotations of players. But with the recent changes our perimeter defense has improved. This now feels like a Thibs team and rotation.

What I don’t get is cam. Unless his camp doesn’t want a backup role and sitting cam is smart since he’s injury prone.

There are some simple explanations for these things without even having to introduce something as silly as Political Bubble.

Thibs does give deference to vets and he wants the young guys to earn their spots. He will let vets have their chance; it's their job to keep/lose their starting position, rotation minutes, or whatever. It's on the young kids to prove their worth and beat out the vets. Rose, Fournier, guys like this have proven themselves on this team and in the league to different degrees. Both faltered and it was time to move on to other players who are also showing their worth to the team.

It's literally that simple, lots of coaches doe this.

With Cam it could be a number of things. Maybe a trade outline is already in place, could be the same with DRose. Could be that the Knicks have most likely asked him to play a certain role on the team, and that role does not include him playing like iso Paul George but Cam seems to want to do exactly that, which is kind of understandable from his prospective given his contract situation; Cam should want to get moved if he thinks he can showcase himself on another team.

gradyandrew wrote:

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:Thibs was hoping to start Grimes all season, thus the reluctance to include him in the Mitchell trade. That would mean his planned starters were JB RJ Grimes JR MR, the same crew we have now. I'm not sure if there's any narrative in somehow him playing his way past Thibs stubbornness. Deuce passing Rose is a bigger surprise and the spot was Rose's to lose.

Thibs has seemed pretty fair in terms of rotation minutes going to the guys playing best (outside of Randle JB and RJ). I think it's pretty interesting that Sims is playing at power forward in front of Reddish.

If JB is injured, what's the plan? Start Rose and put him on a minutes restriction? Start IQ and play him 38 minutes? More time for Deuce?

I don't really see Cam contributing to the team again. I feel like there's some mistrust between him and Thibs. But I also think that it's possible that Fournier and Rose have something to contribute sometime in the future.

You never know how much control Thibs had early on. Seems like he’s been operating in a political bubble. That’s the only way to explain his rotations of players. But with the recent changes our perimeter defense has improved. This now feels like a Thibs team and rotation.

What I don’t get is cam. Unless his camp doesn’t want a backup role and sitting cam is smart since he’s injury prone.

There are some simple explanations for these things without even having to introduce something as silly as Political Bubble.

Thibs does give deference to vets and he wants the young guys to earn their spots. He will let vets have their chance; it's their job to keep/lose their starting position, rotation minutes, or whatever. It's on the young kids to prove their worth and beat out the vets. Rose, Fournier, guys like this have proven themselves on this team and in the league to different degrees. Both faltered and it was time to move on to other players who are also showing their worth to the team.

It's literally that simple, lots of coaches doe this.

With Cam it could be a number of things. Maybe a trade outline is already in place, could be the same with DRose. Could be that the Knicks have most likely asked him to play a certain role on the team, and that role does not include him playing like iso Paul George but Cam seems to want to do exactly that, which is kind of understandable from his prospective given his contract situation; Cam should want to get moved if he thinks he can showcase himself on another team.

If anything I would say Thibs has been apolitical. He's always been straight
forward about having a set rotation and guys getting it done in practice. Arciadano is a good example of a guy who doesn't much see much court time but I imagine works his tail off in practice. Cam was given an opportunity but now the team is performing better so Thibs made the right choice for the team.

I think the argument comes from last season's frustration with Thibs not doing something earlier to right the ship. I think he's learned from that and has been more decisive this season.

Last season wasn't frustrating, it was a disaster having the FO and coaching staff not on the same page.
The Knicks did have a .500 team of role-players on the roster, but the head coach took it personal that the Knicks 2nd unit bench lineup out played opponents better than the Knicks FO starter lineup in each the first 20 games into the season. The head coach reduces the 10-man rotation to an 8-man rotation throughout the remainder of the season. Disaster!!!

The Knicks media could not hype up Knicks fans throughout last season having a Knicks 8-man rotation having Randle & Barrett controlling the ball in the Knicks offense throughout 48 minutes of each game, plus both players receiving above 35 minutes each game. Both playing little to no defense at all.

The Knicks are on a 4-game winning streak ....
The Knicks media has yet to write or announce the Knicks backcourt trio (McBride, Grimes, Quickley) dynamic 2-Way explosion that gave the Knicks a 4-game win streak.
However, the Knicks media did write about each of the 4 wins having Randle or Barretts high score as being the star of the Knicks win .. why because Randle and Barrett have been the two players in the Knicks rotation the past 4 seasons aloud to shoot 20 or more FGA per game. D.Rose never shot 20 FGA in a Knicks game...

Thibs historically operates like that as well and that’s what I expected when he came here.

political bubble is doing what the FO want or playing guys the FO sees value in. I know thibs and his style very well and Thibs is not political but a str8 shooter. That’s why I didn’t mind the hire.

But at some point I was like Kemba, EF…..thibs would not sign up for these non defensive clowns to pair up with more non defensive starters. I cant put my finger on one thing. And maybe I’m expecting too much from Thibs and reading too much into it. Not playing cam after we gave up a player and pick, fed my political theory and highlighted the disconnect between FO and Thibs. You just don’t like the word political bubble 😆.

But now it feels like a thibs team with a rotation of defensive guards. As someone said last year wasn’t a good look on thibs. He just didn’t operate like I would expect a coach like thibs to do. Again maybe I’m holding thibs too high or expecting too much? And maybe I was expecting a quicker turn around since it was obvious to everybody.

As much as people think I hate thibs and want him to fail. It’s the exact opposite. In fact I believe I was giving thibs too much credit.

Kemet wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:Thibs was hoping to start Grimes all season, thus the reluctance to include him in the Mitchell trade. That would mean his planned starters were JB RJ Grimes JR MR, the same crew we have now. I'm not sure if there's any narrative in somehow him playing his way past Thibs stubbornness. Deuce passing Rose is a bigger surprise and the spot was Rose's to lose.

Thibs has seemed pretty fair in terms of rotation minutes going to the guys playing best (outside of Randle JB and RJ). I think it's pretty interesting that Sims is playing at power forward in front of Reddish.

If JB is injured, what's the plan? Start Rose and put him on a minutes restriction? Start IQ and play him 38 minutes? More time for Deuce?

I don't really see Cam contributing to the team again. I feel like there's some mistrust between him and Thibs. But I also think that it's possible that Fournier and Rose have something to contribute sometime in the future.

You never know how much control Thibs had early on. Seems like he’s been operating in a political bubble. That’s the only way to explain his rotations of players. But with the recent changes our perimeter defense has improved. This now feels like a Thibs team and rotation.

What I don’t get is cam. Unless his camp doesn’t want a backup role and sitting cam is smart since he’s injury prone.

There are some simple explanations for these things without even having to introduce something as silly as Political Bubble.

Thibs does give deference to vets and he wants the young guys to earn their spots. He will let vets have their chance; it's their job to keep/lose their starting position, rotation minutes, or whatever. It's on the young kids to prove their worth and beat out the vets. Rose, Fournier, guys like this have proven themselves on this team and in the league to different degrees. Both faltered and it was time to move on to other players who are also showing their worth to the team.

It's literally that simple, lots of coaches doe this.

With Cam it could be a number of things. Maybe a trade outline is already in place, could be the same with DRose. Could be that the Knicks have most likely asked him to play a certain role on the team, and that role does not include him playing like iso Paul George but Cam seems to want to do exactly that, which is kind of understandable from his prospective given his contract situation; Cam should want to get moved if he thinks he can showcase himself on another team.

If anything I would say Thibs has been apolitical. He's always been straight
forward about having a set rotation and guys getting it done in practice. Arciadano is a good example of a guy who doesn't much see much court time but I imagine works his tail off in practice. Cam was given an opportunity but now the team is performing better so Thibs made the right choice for the team.

I think the argument comes from last season's frustration with Thibs not doing something earlier to right the ship. I think he's learned from that and has been more decisive this season.

Last season wasn't frustrating, it was a disaster having the FO and coaching staff not on the same page.
The Knicks did have a .500 team of role-players on the roster, but the head coach took it personal that the Knicks 2nd unit bench lineup out played opponents better than the Knicks FO starter lineup in each the first 20 games into the season. The head coach reduces the 10-man rotation to an 8-man rotation throughout the remainder of the season. Disaster!!!

The Knicks media could not hype up Knicks fans throughout last season having a Knicks 8-man rotation having Randle & Barrett controlling the ball in the Knicks offense throughout 48 minutes of each game, plus both players receiving above 35 minutes each game. Both playing little to no defense at all.

The Knicks are on a 4-game winning streak ....
The Knicks media has yet to write or announce the Knicks backcourt trio (McBride, Grimes, Quickley) dynamic 2-Way explosion that gave the Knicks a 4-game win streak.
However, the Knicks media did write about each of the 4 wins having Randle or Barretts high score as being the star of the Knicks win .. why because Randle and Barrett have been the two players in the Knicks rotation the past 4 seasons aloud to shoot 20 or more FGA per game. D.Rose never shot 20 FGA in a Knicks game...

Nalod wrote:

blkexec wrote:Martin, what you are talking about is a general text book approach by a coach. We all know this or should, but that’s not what I’m talking about.

Thibs historically operates like that as well and that’s what I expected when he came here.

political bubble is doing what the FO want or playing guys the FO sees value in. I know thibs and his style very well and Thibs is not political but a str8 shooter. That’s why I didn’t mind the hire.

But at some point I was like Kemba, EF…..thibs would not sign up for these non defensive clowns to pair up with more non defensive starters. I cant put my finger on one thing. And maybe I’m expecting too much from Thibs and reading too much into it. Not playing cam after we gave up a player and pick, fed my political theory and highlighted the disconnect between FO and Thibs. You just don’t like the word political bubble 😆.

But now it feels like a thibs team with a rotation of defensive guards. As someone said last year wasn’t a good look on thibs. He just didn’t operate like I would expect a coach like thibs to do. Again maybe I’m holding thibs too high or expecting too much? And maybe I was expecting a quicker turn around since it was obvious to everybody.

As much as people think I hate thibs and want him to fail. It’s the exact opposite. In fact I believe I was giving thibs too much credit.

You are a “Thibian Historical Scholar”………

Question: Since Leon is a Thibian Apologist, or so I have read, how does this FO vs Coaching staff thing work?
I read Charlize Theron is repped by CAA. She gonna play for the knicks?

Nalod wrote:

Kemet wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:Thibs was hoping to start Grimes all season, thus the reluctance to include him in the Mitchell trade. That would mean his planned starters were JB RJ Grimes JR MR, the same crew we have now. I'm not sure if there's any narrative in somehow him playing his way past Thibs stubbornness. Deuce passing Rose is a bigger surprise and the spot was Rose's to lose.

Thibs has seemed pretty fair in terms of rotation minutes going to the guys playing best (outside of Randle JB and RJ). I think it's pretty interesting that Sims is playing at power forward in front of Reddish.

If JB is injured, what's the plan? Start Rose and put him on a minutes restriction? Start IQ and play him 38 minutes? More time for Deuce?

I don't really see Cam contributing to the team again. I feel like there's some mistrust between him and Thibs. But I also think that it's possible that Fournier and Rose have something to contribute sometime in the future.

You never know how much control Thibs had early on. Seems like he’s been operating in a political bubble. That’s the only way to explain his rotations of players. But with the recent changes our perimeter defense has improved. This now feels like a Thibs team and rotation.

What I don’t get is cam. Unless his camp doesn’t want a backup role and sitting cam is smart since he’s injury prone.

There are some simple explanations for these things without even having to introduce something as silly as Political Bubble.

Thibs does give deference to vets and he wants the young guys to earn their spots. He will let vets have their chance; it's their job to keep/lose their starting position, rotation minutes, or whatever. It's on the young kids to prove their worth and beat out the vets. Rose, Fournier, guys like this have proven themselves on this team and in the league to different degrees. Both faltered and it was time to move on to other players who are also showing their worth to the team.

It's literally that simple, lots of coaches doe this.

With Cam it could be a number of things. Maybe a trade outline is already in place, could be the same with DRose. Could be that the Knicks have most likely asked him to play a certain role on the team, and that role does not include him playing like iso Paul George but Cam seems to want to do exactly that, which is kind of understandable from his prospective given his contract situation; Cam should want to get moved if he thinks he can showcase himself on another team.

If anything I would say Thibs has been apolitical. He's always been straight
forward about having a set rotation and guys getting it done in practice. Arciadano is a good example of a guy who doesn't much see much court time but I imagine works his tail off in practice. Cam was given an opportunity but now the team is performing better so Thibs made the right choice for the team.

I think the argument comes from last season's frustration with Thibs not doing something earlier to right the ship. I think he's learned from that and has been more decisive this season.

Last season wasn't frustrating, it was a disaster having the FO and coaching staff not on the same page.
The Knicks did have a .500 team of role-players on the roster, but the head coach took it personal that the Knicks 2nd unit bench lineup out played opponents better than the Knicks FO starter lineup in each the first 20 games into the season. The head coach reduces the 10-man rotation to an 8-man rotation throughout the remainder of the season. Disaster!!!

The Knicks media could not hype up Knicks fans throughout last season having a Knicks 8-man rotation having Randle & Barrett controlling the ball in the Knicks offense throughout 48 minutes of each game, plus both players receiving above 35 minutes each game. Both playing little to no defense at all.

The Knicks are on a 4-game winning streak ....
The Knicks media has yet to write or announce the Knicks backcourt trio (McBride, Grimes, Quickley) dynamic 2-Way explosion that gave the Knicks a 4-game win streak.
However, the Knicks media did write about each of the 4 wins having Randle or Barretts high score as being the star of the Knicks win .. why because Randle and Barrett have been the two players in the Knicks rotation the past 4 seasons aloud to shoot 20 or more FGA per game. D.Rose never shot 20 FGA in a Knicks game...

I looked at game log summeries on BasketballReferrence.com, I counted 12 instances were he shot more than 20 attempts in a NY uniform. This is 2021 over two seasons.

12 instances .. Sound more like the total of times Randle shot double-digit FGA throughout his 4 seasons as a Laker. I'm proud of Randle for stepping up his level of performance, but a team-leader he's not.
My bad for exaggeration on the number 20 FGA (what I meant was 15 and above each game), The Randle & Barrett fans are angry with me. When it's just me thinking bout the two Knicks players Randle & Barrett being the most FGA players in the rotation the last 4 seasons. And the Knicks poor defense the last 4 season has a lot to do with the Knicks most minute played players too.

Kemet wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Kemet wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:Thibs was hoping to start Grimes all season, thus the reluctance to include him in the Mitchell trade. That would mean his planned starters were JB RJ Grimes JR MR, the same crew we have now. I'm not sure if there's any narrative in somehow him playing his way past Thibs stubbornness. Deuce passing Rose is a bigger surprise and the spot was Rose's to lose.

Thibs has seemed pretty fair in terms of rotation minutes going to the guys playing best (outside of Randle JB and RJ). I think it's pretty interesting that Sims is playing at power forward in front of Reddish.

If JB is injured, what's the plan? Start Rose and put him on a minutes restriction? Start IQ and play him 38 minutes? More time for Deuce?

I don't really see Cam contributing to the team again. I feel like there's some mistrust between him and Thibs. But I also think that it's possible that Fournier and Rose have something to contribute sometime in the future.

You never know how much control Thibs had early on. Seems like he’s been operating in a political bubble. That’s the only way to explain his rotations of players. But with the recent changes our perimeter defense has improved. This now feels like a Thibs team and rotation.

What I don’t get is cam. Unless his camp doesn’t want a backup role and sitting cam is smart since he’s injury prone.

There are some simple explanations for these things without even having to introduce something as silly as Political Bubble.

Thibs does give deference to vets and he wants the young guys to earn their spots. He will let vets have their chance; it's their job to keep/lose their starting position, rotation minutes, or whatever. It's on the young kids to prove their worth and beat out the vets. Rose, Fournier, guys like this have proven themselves on this team and in the league to different degrees. Both faltered and it was time to move on to other players who are also showing their worth to the team.

It's literally that simple, lots of coaches doe this.

With Cam it could be a number of things. Maybe a trade outline is already in place, could be the same with DRose. Could be that the Knicks have most likely asked him to play a certain role on the team, and that role does not include him playing like iso Paul George but Cam seems to want to do exactly that, which is kind of understandable from his prospective given his contract situation; Cam should want to get moved if he thinks he can showcase himself on another team.

If anything I would say Thibs has been apolitical. He's always been straight
forward about having a set rotation and guys getting it done in practice. Arciadano is a good example of a guy who doesn't much see much court time but I imagine works his tail off in practice. Cam was given an opportunity but now the team is performing better so Thibs made the right choice for the team.

I think the argument comes from last season's frustration with Thibs not doing something earlier to right the ship. I think he's learned from that and has been more decisive this season.

Last season wasn't frustrating, it was a disaster having the FO and coaching staff not on the same page.
The Knicks did have a .500 team of role-players on the roster, but the head coach took it personal that the Knicks 2nd unit bench lineup out played opponents better than the Knicks FO starter lineup in each the first 20 games into the season. The head coach reduces the 10-man rotation to an 8-man rotation throughout the remainder of the season. Disaster!!!

The Knicks media could not hype up Knicks fans throughout last season having a Knicks 8-man rotation having Randle & Barrett controlling the ball in the Knicks offense throughout 48 minutes of each game, plus both players receiving above 35 minutes each game. Both playing little to no defense at all.

The Knicks are on a 4-game winning streak ....
The Knicks media has yet to write or announce the Knicks backcourt trio (McBride, Grimes, Quickley) dynamic 2-Way explosion that gave the Knicks a 4-game win streak.
However, the Knicks media did write about each of the 4 wins having Randle or Barretts high score as being the star of the Knicks win .. why because Randle and Barrett have been the two players in the Knicks rotation the past 4 seasons aloud to shoot 20 or more FGA per game. D.Rose never shot 20 FGA in a Knicks game...

I looked at game log summeries on BasketballReferrence.com, I counted 12 instances were he shot more than 20 attempts in a NY uniform. This is 2021 over two seasons.

12 instances .. Sound more like the total of times Randle shot double-digit FGA throughout his 4 seasons as a Laker. I'm proud of Randle for stepping up his level of performance, but a team-leader he's not.
My bad for exaggeration on the number 20 FGA (what I meant was 15 and above each game), The Randle & Barrett fans are angry with me. When it's just me thinking bout the two Knicks players Randle & Barrett being the most FGA players in the rotation the last 4 seasons. And the Knicks poor defense the last 4 season has a lot to do with the Knicks most minute played players too.

Kemet with the 12 year old back tracking.
Knicks had the 4th best defensive rating in 2020. 11th in 2021. Guess who averaged more than 15mpg in those seasons. But I'm sure the genius troll Kemet knew that.