martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Do you watch the games?

This year or last year? Overall, too much actually. But the games I missed this year, we got blown out. The games I saw we won. And this year I haven't seen RJ carry anything but a few bricks.

Just didn't know if you had caught last game to know who played when RJ sat.

No I missed that part. Thats why I asked the question? To be honest, I thought we would fold in the 3rd, ran some errands at half time. I heard someone bring this up and was curious what happened. RJ has been in a slump for ever. And in the 3rd he's finally hitting some shots. So just asking.

I saw Deuce come in the game early at the 5min mark and I almost fell out of my chair. Then when I realized Rose and Cam never came into the game, I was like "Thibs and his tight rotation". Thibs wins are tied to his rotations. Deep team, he seems to struggle to get wins. Tight rotation, we seem to win more games. I love Cam like a love Deuce, as far as their defense. I'm curious to see if Thibs will use that same rotation, or will Deuce sit and Rose back in? Just trying to understand this coaches thought process on who's playing who's not and why.

Nalod wrote:

blkexec wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:I loved the effort last night but if anyone is ignoring the lack of effort for most of the year it’s a mistake.

I’ve also been around long enough where 2 games out of 4th in early Dec can turn into 2 games out of 10th in March.

Here is hoping to a turn towards great D, young players playing and some wins. Just need to bring the D every game — prior to last night I think we were bottom 5 defensively.

No one is denying the bad performances, the inconsistency, the uncertainty. Just saying the big picture is about taking it all in. Which includes the positive. Very difficult for some fans.

This statement is simply not true. And I agree with the original poster. Ignoring the lack of effort is the mistake. In fact, some knick fans (to my surprise) are ignoring a lot of negatives with this team, which is a mistake, and this train of thought is why we continue to be in mediocrity.

I've always been one of the most optimistic fans in this forum. Mainly because everybody is always doom and gloom. Seems like the fans in this forum have changed over the years which is fine. But we can't just glorify these wins and ignore the issues.

Question that I can't figure out from last game.

RJ struggled in the 1st half.
RJ played great in the 3rd quarter (didn't miss a shot).
RJ is taken out and doesn't go back into the game until the end of the 4th quarter?

Yes we won, thats great. But please explain that one. RJ is a polarizing player and he might need the same whisperer as Randle. But when RJ has it going, he can carry a team. And in the 3rd he had it going. But it seems like Thibs doesn't sway away from his pre-game script, which is my issue with Thibs. Thibs is one of the best at preparing for the next game and having a script in hand. He's also been the worse with in game script changes. But some of us will ignore that and say we won so move on.

Why play RJ until he starts to play badly? They get tired. 2nd night of a back to back.
Thibs does this all the time. Take out guys even though they are playing well. It looks bad but why keep them out longer and degrade.
What if Thibs is trying to shorten RJ's minutes and build up smaller samples were he plays well, and that's a reference point?
You played well, now sit and feel good about it!
Vs, you played well, made some mistakes, now sit and feel bad about why your out?

Im guessing here. We are at fulls strength and RJ needs 5 min less per night on the court. If we been having 3 period issues this is Thibs trying new things?

Yes, I was thinking about that when I saw RJ only played 20 mins last game or game before. Thats why I said, Thibs already had RJ's mins figured out before the game (it seems like). On paper I wouldve did the same thing. RJ's mins wasn't providing enough ROI. First I'm surprised he reduced his minutes. Been saying that for years with both RJ and Randle. Seemed like Thibs was forced into that minute distribution, because it never made logical since. I'm wondering during those losing streaks, he got the approval to move players mins around, regardless of their salary.

But it's one thing to have a pre-game script. Thats what makes Thibs so great at his job. What I don't like is the lack of in game changes (or the perception). RJ has been shooting bricks, so reduce his minutes. But then you see he hasn't missed a shot in the 3rd, so I would think his original game plan with RJ would've changed slightly. But this is Thibs expertise. I'm just asking questions as a fan.

As a coach, if a playing has it rolling, I roll with it. Thibs is the same exact way because he said it. Thats why I was surprised to see or hear that RJ was rolling but didn't come back in until the end of the 4th. Now I'm not sure when he was subbed out, but just curious. Seems like the guard defense improved when RJ was sitting, so thats why he didn't come back in? If so, thats GREAT NEWS. We need Thibs to make changes like this based on defensive impact. Usually he base it on game flow, which is probably the answer he would give.

martin wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:Every FO makes mistakes (even the best ones) - I think we all can agree on that. I believe they got duped when they were planning to move on from Randle (when they drafted Obi) and he overperformed. Instead of seeing the long-term considerations - we were so desperate to be "just good" again that we resigned him when we could have sold high. I understand the thinking but that was a significant point where our path could/should have changed. His value from then to now seems staggering. The key is to forecast well and stay one (or two) steps ahead - I believe we took the easy way out after sucking for so long.

The main issue now is what path is the right one to take...try to build via draft and trades (from mediocrity) or take a few steps back with the long-term goal of obtaining higher end talent?

If you support continuing on from current position - who are the big fish targets and what is the cost for these type of players? Booker, KAT, SGA? After seeing what DM would have cost I'd much rather try to obtain top tier talent through the draft (due to the expected cost and roster depletion). I believe we actually have a great bench and some decent players - but we would lose all/most of them to obtain this top tier talent needed to take the next step. What the Nets lucked into when KD and Kyrie decided to join them is similar to where we are currently IMO. Don't see anyone of that level deciding to take their talents to MSG sadly...

So it's fine to say we should be happy we're finally not terrible but how do you take the next step to advance? Randle was supposed to be the very good player that we could package to turn into a higher level star. It's suggested we would need to attach a pick to get rid of him at this point. I think the path we are taking is much more difficult and would require more good fortune then the Knicks have experienced since the 84 draft.

This was definitely a pivotal decision for the Knicks. After that 2020-21 season, they had a choice to re-up the guys that just blew away all expectations or tear it down and maybe sell Randle to the highest bidder. Hard decision.

Tear it down and the entire fan base will hate you cause you go from 4th seed to low lottery intentionally. Recall, this is after Phil Jackson and Fiz and Hornecak and Fisher and all the debacles.

The Knicks opted to give the guys another go and brought back most on 2 year deals and brought in Fournier/Kemba to up the offense.

Without hindsight, it’s a tough decision either way.

In the end, selling peak Randle would have been the move but really who is doing that after like 10 years of not making playoffs.

I thought a pivotal point before that is when we were 11 & 14 and were standing at a fork in the road. In my opinion, we should have shopped Randle who was putting up career numbers and was still on a reasonable deal that would have expired the next summer. Instead, we traded for Rose. We had a good regular season but it may have given the front office a false sense of who we really were during that pandemic year as they signed Kemba and Fournier during the Summer of '21....those signings set us back....

wargames wrote:

Uptown wrote:

martin wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:Every FO makes mistakes (even the best ones) - I think we all can agree on that. I believe they got duped when they were planning to move on from Randle (when they drafted Obi) and he overperformed. Instead of seeing the long-term considerations - we were so desperate to be "just good" again that we resigned him when we could have sold high. I understand the thinking but that was a significant point where our path could/should have changed. His value from then to now seems staggering. The key is to forecast well and stay one (or two) steps ahead - I believe we took the easy way out after sucking for so long.

The main issue now is what path is the right one to take...try to build via draft and trades (from mediocrity) or take a few steps back with the long-term goal of obtaining higher end talent?

If you support continuing on from current position - who are the big fish targets and what is the cost for these type of players? Booker, KAT, SGA? After seeing what DM would have cost I'd much rather try to obtain top tier talent through the draft (due to the expected cost and roster depletion). I believe we actually have a great bench and some decent players - but we would lose all/most of them to obtain this top tier talent needed to take the next step. What the Nets lucked into when KD and Kyrie decided to join them is similar to where we are currently IMO. Don't see anyone of that level deciding to take their talents to MSG sadly...

So it's fine to say we should be happy we're finally not terrible but how do you take the next step to advance? Randle was supposed to be the very good player that we could package to turn into a higher level star. It's suggested we would need to attach a pick to get rid of him at this point. I think the path we are taking is much more difficult and would require more good fortune then the Knicks have experienced since the 84 draft.

This was definitely a pivotal decision for the Knicks. After that 2020-21 season, they had a choice to re-up the guys that just blew away all expectations or tear it down and maybe sell Randle to the highest bidder. Hard decision.

Tear it down and the entire fan base will hate you cause you go from 4th seed to low lottery intentionally. Recall, this is after Phil Jackson and Fiz and Hornecak and Fisher and all the debacles.

The Knicks opted to give the guys another go and brought back most on 2 year deals and brought in Fournier/Kemba to up the offense.

Without hindsight, it’s a tough decision either way.

In the end, selling peak Randle would have been the move but really who is doing that after like 10 years of not making playoffs.

I thought a pivotal point before that is when we were 11 & 14 and were standing at a fork in the road. In my opinion, we should have shopped Randle who was putting up career numbers and was still on a reasonable deal that would have expired the next summer. Instead, we traded for Rose. We had a good regular season but it may have given the front office a false sense of who we really were during that pandemic year as they signed Kemba and Fournier during the Summer of '21....those signings set us back....

At this point I got to ask what is giving the front office a false sense of who we are now? I mean what is stopping them from making a move to change the course of this barge of mediocrity we call the 22’ Knicks?

The right deal. Unlike the FO of the past. This FO is very calculated with their deals (wrong or right). Sometimes it works in our favor and other times it might not. But that’s how todays knick FO operates.