martin wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:

martin wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:Okay, maybe Pelosi has something up her sleeve which will magically diminish China's global military and economic power.

Cause if she doesn't, I guess her visit to Taiwan is just a demonstration that someone can be dumber than Trump on foreign policy.

And to think that she was actually one of my favorite US politicians.

I have to tell you, I don't quite understand posts like this. I don't mean to sound flippant but it will probably come off that way but I don't know how to better get to the point.

Your thread title is flamebait/clickbait, right?

And then your post is a choice between 2 different extremes that really amount to nothing, ie literally no one has the capability to visit a country and by their visit do what you are proposing.

How is this either engaging or informative?

If you want to kick off discussion, I can't see how you would do a worse job at it

On closer inspection, I realize that the sarcasm embedded in my original post may be too thick for some, so let me express my thoughts in a plainer language:

- Pelosi's ongoing visit to Taiwan is antagonizing China to the point of threatening war
- China is powerful economically and militarily
- Therefore, antagonism and war with China would be bad
- Therefore, what Pelosi is doing is bad and dumb
- In conclusion, I am concerned over the prospect of a war with China over this incident, and disappointed in Pelosi because I used to think she was not dumb

Your base assumption is that visiting a place can be antagonizing enough to go to war over?

US politicians visited Ukraine. Is that also, in your opinion, the same type of visit and equally as a step and declaration against Putin?

I don't buy your assumption and don't think others do. This is a very scripted thing, this visit.

China has flat out said that, yes

Panos wrote:

martin wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:

martin wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:Okay, maybe Pelosi has something up her sleeve which will magically diminish China's global military and economic power.

Cause if she doesn't, I guess her visit to Taiwan is just a demonstration that someone can be dumber than Trump on foreign policy.

And to think that she was actually one of my favorite US politicians.

I have to tell you, I don't quite understand posts like this. I don't mean to sound flippant but it will probably come off that way but I don't know how to better get to the point.

Your thread title is flamebait/clickbait, right?

And then your post is a choice between 2 different extremes that really amount to nothing, ie literally no one has the capability to visit a country and by their visit do what you are proposing.

How is this either engaging or informative?

If you want to kick off discussion, I can't see how you would do a worse job at it

On closer inspection, I realize that the sarcasm embedded in my original post may be too thick for some, so let me express my thoughts in a plainer language:

- Pelosi's ongoing visit to Taiwan is antagonizing China to the point of threatening war
- China is powerful economically and militarily
- Therefore, antagonism and war with China would be bad
- Therefore, what Pelosi is doing is bad and dumb
- In conclusion, I am concerned over the prospect of a war with China over this incident, and disappointed in Pelosi because I used to think she was not dumb

Your base assumption is that visiting a place can be antagonizing enough to go to war over?

US politicians visited Ukraine. Is that also, in your opinion, the same type of visit and equally as a step and declaration against Putin?

I don't buy your assumption and don't think others do. This is a very scripted thing, this visit.

China has flat out said that, yes

gradyandrew wrote:Anyone saying China's economy is on the verge of collapse doesn't know what they are talking about. The government hits the brakes when it gets hot and adds gas when it cools off. 20 years here and I'very never seen anything close to a recession. Chinese people are also much more unified behind their government than in America. America still beats China in flag waving, so as triple threat wrote, war jingoism remains just about the only thing that holds the majority of Americans together.

The anti-China policy of both the Democratic and Republican Party is about the only issue they agree on. It's hard not to draw the conclusion that this is ultimately about the Congressional Military Industrial complex trying to prop up the biggest industry in the US, making weapons, and an attempt to repeat the Ukraine playbook, is start a proxy war to sell weapons and let other people, in this case the Taiwanese, to pay the price.

There's a bill in Congress right now that is looking to increase military aid to Taiwan and gut most of the provisions of the one China policy. Trust between the countries is already at an all time low because of the USA's ridiculous posturing on the Xinjiang issue. As a refresher, the US invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, riling up Islamic fundamentalism across the world. Xinjiang terrorists carried out several high profile attacks. China has done it's best to reeducate those people. Far from having any negative effects, the policy has for the first time actually brought those people into the the modern world. When I first came to China, Xinjiang gangs openly sold heroin around train stations- now the gangs are gone and there are many Xinjiang BBQ shops around my city who have adapted and achieved success simply by selling beer. The US has called this cultural genocide, an offensive term that cheapens what happened in the Holocaust. I don't like to engage in "what aboutism" but for a nation built from the start on eradicating and removing Native Americans before throwing them the sop of gambling licenses to assuage cultural guilt, it seems like the height of hypocrisy.

About 4 years ago I printed an American textbook on Chinese history for my students. Luna, a delightful girl, through the book at me and started yelling that I was poisoning their minds because the map of China was green and Taiwan was yellow. This is an issue the Chinese people feel extremely strong about at all levels.

WWI was started by Germany because of a "it's now or never" policy. Military reforms in both France and Russia meant both countries were likely to be stronger in the future. Facing domestic pressure from Socialists in the legislature to adopt a less militaristic policy, the German high command wrote Austria Hungary a blank check to give the Kaiser enough of an excuse to claim war was being forced on them. The speech given by the Chancellor asking for authorization to mobilize ended with "We are all Germans today"

Taiwan has been de facto independent for 73 years. There have been no changes to that de facto independence. It sadly seems obvious to me that rather than with griftocracy in America, the IS government is trying desperately to stir up conflict and war. This is a sad,sad day for me as I see my life's work of promoting understanding between China and the USA being flushed down the ****ter by corrupt octogenarians.

I won't debate US Political Hypocrisy - however for consideration are the changes to HK since 2020. For instance in June 2020 China bypassed the Hong Kong legislature and imposed a national security law on the city. The legislation effectively criminalizes any dissent and adopts extremely broad definitions for crimes such as terrorism, subversion, secession, and collusion with foreign powers. It also allows China to establish a security force in Hong Kong. I think the US-Taiwan issue is more than just about defense budget and contractors. Ultimately it is likely more about the US trying to protect its interests and alignment on trade with Taiwan.

Nalod wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:Anyone saying China's economy is on the verge of collapse doesn't know what they are talking about. The government hits the brakes when it gets hot and adds gas when it cools off. 20 years here and I'very never seen anything close to a recession. Chinese people are also much more unified behind their government than in America. America still beats China in flag waving, so as triple threat wrote, war jingoism remains just about the only thing that holds the majority of Americans together.

The anti-China policy of both the Democratic and Republican Party is about the only issue they agree on. It's hard not to draw the conclusion that this is ultimately about the Congressional Military Industrial complex trying to prop up the biggest industry in the US, making weapons, and an attempt to repeat the Ukraine playbook, is start a proxy war to sell weapons and let other people, in this case the Taiwanese, to pay the price.

There's a bill in Congress right now that is looking to increase military aid to Taiwan and gut most of the provisions of the one China policy. Trust between the countries is already at an all time low because of the USA's ridiculous posturing on the Xinjiang issue. As a refresher, the US invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, riling up Islamic fundamentalism across the world. Xinjiang terrorists carried out several high profile attacks. China has done it's best to reeducate those people. Far from having any negative effects, the policy has for the first time actually brought those people into the the modern world. When I first came to China, Xinjiang gangs openly sold heroin around train stations- now the gangs are gone and there are many Xinjiang BBQ shops around my city who have adapted and achieved success simply by selling beer. The US has called this cultural genocide, an offensive term that cheapens what happened in the Holocaust. I don't like to engage in "what aboutism" but for a nation built from the start on eradicating and removing Native Americans before throwing them the sop of gambling licenses to assuage cultural guilt, it seems like the height of hypocrisy.

About 4 years ago I printed an American textbook on Chinese history for my students. Luna, a delightful girl, through the book at me and started yelling that I was poisoning their minds because the map of China was green and Taiwan was yellow. This is an issue the Chinese people feel extremely strong about at all levels.

WWI was started by Germany because of a "it's now or never" policy. Military reforms in both France and Russia meant both countries were likely to be stronger in the future. Facing domestic pressure from Socialists in the legislature to adopt a less militaristic policy, the German high command wrote Austria Hungary a blank check to give the Kaiser enough of an excuse to claim war was being forced on them. The speech given by the Chancellor asking for authorization to mobilize ended with "We are all Germans today"

Taiwan has been de facto independent for 73 years. There have been no changes to that de facto independence. It sadly seems obvious to me that rather than with griftocracy in America, the IS government is trying desperately to stir up conflict and war. This is a sad,sad day for me as I see my life's work of promoting understanding between China and the USA being flushed down the ****ter by corrupt octogenarians.

I won't debate US Political Hypocrisy - however for consideration are the changes to HK since 2020. For instance in June 2020 China bypassed the Hong Kong legislature and imposed a national security law on the city. The legislation effectively criminalizes any dissent and adopts extremely broad definitions for crimes such as terrorism, subversion, secession, and collusion with foreign powers. It also allows China to establish a security force in Hong Kong. I think the US-Taiwan issue is more than just about defense budget and contractors. Ultimately it is likely more about the US trying to protect its interests and alignment on trade with Taiwan.

That was our concern with an embargo prior to WW2. Japan could dictate it all it colonized. To the west, we saw German Socialism economically more compatible than Soviet Communism.

Pride and culture all have price.

ramtour420 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:Anyone saying China's economy is on the verge of collapse doesn't know what they are talking about. The government hits the brakes when it gets hot and adds gas when it cools off. 20 years here and I'very never seen anything close to a recession. Chinese people are also much more unified behind their government than in America. America still beats China in flag waving, so as triple threat wrote, war jingoism remains just about the only thing that holds the majority of Americans together.

The anti-China policy of both the Democratic and Republican Party is about the only issue they agree on. It's hard not to draw the conclusion that this is ultimately about the Congressional Military Industrial complex trying to prop up the biggest industry in the US, making weapons, and an attempt to repeat the Ukraine playbook, is start a proxy war to sell weapons and let other people, in this case the Taiwanese, to pay the price.

There's a bill in Congress right now that is looking to increase military aid to Taiwan and gut most of the provisions of the one China policy. Trust between the countries is already at an all time low because of the USA's ridiculous posturing on the Xinjiang issue. As a refresher, the US invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, riling up Islamic fundamentalism across the world. Xinjiang terrorists carried out several high profile attacks. China has done it's best to reeducate those people. Far from having any negative effects, the policy has for the first time actually brought those people into the the modern world. When I first came to China, Xinjiang gangs openly sold heroin around train stations- now the gangs are gone and there are many Xinjiang BBQ shops around my city who have adapted and achieved success simply by selling beer. The US has called this cultural genocide, an offensive term that cheapens what happened in the Holocaust. I don't like to engage in "what aboutism" but for a nation built from the start on eradicating and removing Native Americans before throwing them the sop of gambling licenses to assuage cultural guilt, it seems like the height of hypocrisy.

About 4 years ago I printed an American textbook on Chinese history for my students. Luna, a delightful girl, through the book at me and started yelling that I was poisoning their minds because the map of China was green and Taiwan was yellow. This is an issue the Chinese people feel extremely strong about at all levels.

WWI was started by Germany because of a "it's now or never" policy. Military reforms in both France and Russia meant both countries were likely to be stronger in the future. Facing domestic pressure from Socialists in the legislature to adopt a less militaristic policy, the German high command wrote Austria Hungary a blank check to give the Kaiser enough of an excuse to claim war was being forced on them. The speech given by the Chancellor asking for authorization to mobilize ended with "We are all Germans today"

Taiwan has been de facto independent for 73 years. There have been no changes to that de facto independence. It sadly seems obvious to me that rather than with griftocracy in America, the IS government is trying desperately to stir up conflict and war. This is a sad,sad day for me as I see my life's work of promoting understanding between China and the USA being flushed down the ****ter by corrupt octogenarians.

I won't debate US Political Hypocrisy - however for consideration are the changes to HK since 2020. For instance in June 2020 China bypassed the Hong Kong legislature and imposed a national security law on the city. The legislation effectively criminalizes any dissent and adopts extremely broad definitions for crimes such as terrorism, subversion, secession, and collusion with foreign powers. It also allows China to establish a security force in Hong Kong. I think the US-Taiwan issue is more than just about defense budget and contractors. Ultimately it is likely more about the US trying to protect its interests and alignment on trade with Taiwan.

That was our concern with an embargo prior to WW2. Japan could dictate it all it colonized. To the west, we saw German Socialism economically more compatible than Soviet Communism.

Pride and culture all have price.

I am trying to figure out what you mean here. Are you talking about the US supporting the Germans at the beginning of WWII with weapons?

FDR was a bit of a dick but we then, as now play the isolationist card. His power base was white nationalist supermoney. We did not enter the war to protect the victims of the SS. No, we did not supply weapons to Germany. but we enabled them as they were willing to fight the Soviets. The lend lease program to England? If we don't enter the way they are forced to negotiate a peace with Germany and we don't get paid back and our trade to europe begins to erode badly as well. A German dominated europe economically threatens us. They fighting communists was best play. Germany invades Russia June 1941. That opened the door for us to enter.
Japan just wanted us out of their back yard. Rumor was we knew they'd do what they did and reasoning is our people were not emotionally motivated unless they felt we were threatened. Japan had no manpower, supply chain to attack and occupy This country. Not in 1941. Germany could not get us on our soil but over time jets/rockets/etc could.

When threatened our divided country does come together.

ESOMKnicks wrote:

martin wrote:
Your base assumption is that visiting a place can be antagonizing enough to go to war over?

US politicians visited Ukraine. Is that also, in your opinion, the same type of visit and equally as a step and declaration against Putin?

I don't buy your assumption and don't think others do. This is a very scripted thing, this visit.

It is not an assumption, it is reality, China has openly talked about military measures, has gotten its fighter jets up in the air, and has amassed troops next to the Straights of Taiwan. It clearly takes this as an affront that it would not pardon, and I question why do we need this escalation right now, especially with Russia already running amok waging a war in Europe.

Is teasing and humiliating China really the best way to support Taiwan? Can the world actually afford such a conflict? Was China making a move against Taiwan that actually had to be countered like that? Is now the best time for the US to be escalating a situation that has been relatively dormant and actually suited everyone relatively well?

Unless someone can explain what am I missing, seems like a high-risk, zero-reward move by Pelosi. A dumb one.

N.B. Ukraine is an independent state. While the United States, right or wrong, officially does not recognize Taiwan as being independent of China.

No. Let's put our tails between our legs and not do anything to upset the big power. Especially something as crazy as a visiting a country with democratic inclinations. Can see the Reps saying Pelosi had no nerve and was being pushed around by China if she decided to back down from a visit. Or maybe that she backed out of visit because Biden is such good friends with China. If China decides to do anything because of free people visiting certain countries, that is exactly what we should go to war over. Allowing Russia and China to dictate what free people should and should not do is exactly what so many American generations have fought against. So **** China and any other government that thinks free souls should be afraid to be free.

ESOMKnicks wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:
No. Let's put our tails between our legs and not do anything to upset the big power. Especially something as crazy as a visiting a country with democratic inclinations. Can see the Reps saying Pelosi had no nerve and was being pushed around by China if she decided to back down from a visit. Or maybe that she backed out of visit because Biden is such good friends with China. If China decides to do anything because of free people visiting certain countries, that is exactly what we should go to war over. Allowing Russia and China to dictate what free people should and should not do is exactly what so many American generations have fought against. So **** China and any other government that thinks free souls should be afraid to be free.

Intelligent people or nations pick the right time and place for each of their actions. And weigh the relative costs and benefits. Picking a fight with the world's second most powerful nation right now has high potential costs and hardly any benefits. The USA and the free world are grappling with inflation, economic slowdown and the need to contain the immediate threat and ongoing agression from Russia. So, instead of getting China to cooperate or at least not to work against us, Pelosi chooses to do something that creates a spat with China out of nothing. That is dumb.
Imagine walking home by yourself late at night through a dark deserted park. And you see a big scary dude smoking on a bench next to a "no smoking" sign. Just smoking and looking at you, nothing else. Do you walk on by, or do you walk up to him to tell him to stop smoking there? You are within your rights to do the latter. But it would be a dumb thing to do, because you would be creating a risk for yourself with hardly any upside. Especially if you happen to have an injured and bandaged arm at that particular moment.
Hope the analogy is clear enough.

Stupid analogy. Pelosi is not telling China what to do. How about this one. A big scary dude in the park threatens that you should not go through the park. What do you do? Cowards walk away, free men with dignity go through and if he tries to stop you, you knock him on his ass. NO ONE has the right to tell those that are free where they can and can't go.

There is no argument for letting anyone intimidate an American from visiting any country Especially one of it's representatives. Allowing any government to intimidate any American is not "intelligent". More like cowardly.

Fyi, China is not stupid. Their Rhetoric can work to stir up people like you but they know full well they ain't doing ****. The right is just doing their daily which is finding anything to put down Dems. So back to my original point. Stop believing everything you read or see on right wing Media.

Alpha1971 wrote:People who regurgitate right wing talking points enjoy being afraid and angry while mocking others while immediately claiming victim hood when they are refuted. I'm a former Conservative I understand and I he indoctrination. Just pity the fools and hope the light bulb goes off

you really nailed it

fishmike wrote:

Alpha1971 wrote:People who regurgitate right wing talking points enjoy being afraid and angry while mocking others while immediately claiming victim hood when they are refuted. I'm a former Conservative I understand and I he indoctrination. Just pity the fools and hope the light bulb goes off

its convenient... ensures one never has to look too closely at anything, have any accountability, or do any critical thinking. Its all reactive and "what about"

you really nailed it

It's a very easy insular existed. After September 11 I started to listen to Hannity, Ingraham, Savage on the radio for 4 hours a night. Did that for a few wasted years. But I was always able to maintain intellectual honesty and tried to hold the same standard for both my team and the others. The same critical standards I held against Dems I had for conservatives. Conservatives will criticize Hilary Clinton for her private server but look the other way for everything Trump has decided be oh please. They attacked Hilary Clinton for Benghazi but ignore Russian aggression in Syria and betrayal of the Kurds. They will attack Biden for withdrawing from Afghanistan when it was Trump's policy and when Trump would have had us withdraw from NATO and would have done nothing to oppose putin's invasion in the Ukraine. Our nation faces inflation due to the Russian invasion and that is not Bidens fault. Name a nation post Covid and Russia's invasion not suffering from Inflation. Oh geez conservatives are now a parity of what they were.

HofstraBBall wrote:

Alpha1971 wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:
No. Let's put our tails between our legs and not do anything to upset the big power. Especially something as crazy as a visiting a country with democratic inclinations. Can see the Reps saying Pelosi had no nerve and was being pushed around by China if she decided to back down from a visit. Or maybe that she backed out of visit because Biden is such good friends with China. If China decides to do anything because of free people visiting certain countries, that is exactly what we should go to war over. Allowing Russia and China to dictate what free people should and should not do is exactly what so many American generations have fought against. So **** China and any other government that thinks free souls should be afraid to be free.

Intelligent people or nations pick the right time and place for each of their actions. And weigh the relative costs and benefits. Picking a fight with the world's second most powerful nation right now has high potential costs and hardly any benefits. The USA and the free world are grappling with inflation, economic slowdown and the need to contain the immediate threat and ongoing agression from Russia. So, instead of getting China to cooperate or at least not to work against us, Pelosi chooses to do something that creates a spat with China out of nothing. That is dumb.
Imagine walking home by yourself late at night through a dark deserted park. And you see a big scary dude smoking on a bench next to a "no smoking" sign. Just smoking and looking at you, nothing else. Do you walk on by, or do you walk up to him to tell him to stop smoking there? You are within your rights to do the latter. But it would be a dumb thing to do, because you would be creating a risk for yourself with hardly any upside. Especially if you happen to have an injured and bandaged arm at that particular moment.
Hope the analogy is clear enough.

China has intelligent people and they are not going to be antogonized over a US politician visiting Taiwan anymore then the US would be antogonized if China sends a delegation to the US or to an enemy of the US as a sign of support. But again maybe snowflake conservatives would be so irresponsible like when they run to spite the veterans because Man in and Schumer made a potential deal. Or when Collins revealed conservative won't support protecting gay marriage because of same thing. What happened to conservatives over the last twenty years ,? Shameful

You mean the same ones who sell their souls and principles at the Trump alter? For fear of retribution from his orangeness?

I'm sure Lindsay Graham must be on video blowing some black dudes and he is being black mailed for being black maled. That won't play in South Carolina. Rubio is just corrupt and knows where his butter is buttered. He wants a nice boat and cars. Give me the list I can go thru all the conservative Senators. Don't get me started on Christian Nationalists in the House. BTW, I am a devour Christian and don't be fooled nothing Christian about the conservative right. Nothing Christian about them at all or even the " Pro birth but f em when they are born pro life crowd " I was once a pro life conservative it's all virtue signaling hypocrisy. Abortion is an evil just until someone you love needs one. The conservatives few are about only two things 1) voter suppression 2) claiming tax cuts as a vehicle that grows the economy. They have no policy or plan except culture wars and blaming a new boogey man every year. Last year it was Antifa and this year's it's transgender woke people bunch of cowards.

gradyandrew wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:Okay, maybe Pelosi has something up her sleeve which will magically diminish China's global military and economic power.

Cause if she doesn't, I guess her visit to Taiwan is just a demonstration that someone can be dumber than Trump on foreign policy.

And to think that she was actually one of my favorite US politicians.

Haven't politicians and members of the House been travelling to Taiwan for years as a show of solidarity towards their commitment to democracy? Much ado about nothing mostly generated from talking points raised by ever competing and ratings hungry 24 hour news networks and internet outlets.

Not of such high rank, since Newt Gongrich did it 25 years ago. But the geopolitical situation back then was vastly different (much more benign for the United States). And by doing so, he was not undermining the foreign policy of a US administration of his own party.

And today it is not just about the news outlets, unfortunately. China is actually actively sabre-rattling in response.

It's clear that you are exactly who foosballnick is talking about. A bit too much time on the Internet believing everything Rep backed sites are selling. Head speaker visiting the Asia and heading Indo-Pacific delagation and she is not going to visit Taiwan. The lone star of Democratic inclination in China's Shadow?

Come on man, it's all about conservative news outlets looking for anything to make a negative during election time.

When Newt went to Taiwan 25 years ago, he first visited Beijing and then flew to Japan before flying to Taiwan. He did so to decrease tension with China vs. flying directly.

So let's say during one of North Korea's periods of threatening to send a launching a war head to the west coast as they do from time to time and China sends a delegation to North Korea or to the UN to support North Koreas diplomats you think the US should start to threaten China with war ? So you think China would respond to a visit from Pelosi to Taiwan with a war with the largest economy in the world with the mightiest nuclear arsenal and conventional arms with a fleets of shops and countless planes to deploy troops rapidly to South East Asia makes any sense to China ? While China owns so much capital in the US. Boy Fox can sell you anything and you will buy it