ESOMKnicks wrote:So, we are trading a guy who has proven to be able to score 20 ppg in the league, despite a low EFG%, for a guy who could end up being a total bust for all we know. How can one be so sure that Ivey is the next Wade and not the next Fultz?

Yes, that is what I am proposing. I am trying to project out what each player could be and how that player may be. Completely understand the bird in hand situation.

You can play the "Ivey may turn into Fultz" with every player in the draft. You can also predict that perhaps that player will turn out to be more like Mitchell.

That's what the scouting team is all about. I'm theoretically depending on what Walt Perrin is telling me and suggesting a scenario from there.

I am talking about a player who also may have a much higher ceiling than RJ.

Let's be clear: If there is a way to keep RJ and move Randle, etc. to get Ivey, I'm all for that.

franco12 wrote:

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:I don’t like a backcourt built around guys who can’t really shoot. I think either on their own is nice. Ivey alongside Barrett would be what we need. Barrett playing in the open floor with a guy like Ivey will unlock his game and make him a more efficient player. That is what we need. Daniels is a glue guy but Ivey with Barrett would be very dynamic.

Why you building around RJ then? He just showed us for 3 straight years that he can't really shoot.

Barrett shot 40% from 3pt without much spacing around him. High volume too. He’s proven he can shoot. You’re plan involves way too many unknowns for my taste. I know you’re down on Barrett somewhat over the years. He’s still not a guaranteed star. But if you move him it would need to be for a sure thing. But you can never say a guy who shoots 40% from 3 in a clunky lineup can’t shoot.

For me, you are trading for a guy in Ivey that will have an elite skill: his speed. I don't think RJ has an elite skill that he can fall back on when his shot is not falling or even one that he can use to separate himself. Ivey does AND pretty soon you need to make the Max decision on RJ.

RJ is just not good as a finisher at rim, below average FT shooter, sucks at the midrange. Even if he makes those MUCH better, that will still fall into the average range.

To put the 40% shooting into perspective, he has had about 4 good months of downtown shooting from over ~13 months worth of games across last 2 years; I don't think that makes him a proven shoot, IMO that's a shooter who got hot for a few months. And I don't think it's a spacing thing, a lot of those 3's are wide open.

The one thing RJ does occasionally do nicely is get to the rim and get easy baskets. I think he might have been better when he was playing as a SG and could use his size more.

But- if I can trade him straight up for pick 4 in this draft and get Ivey, there is a lot of reasons to make that move.

He needs to play SG. So frustrating we didn't draft Mikal Bridges. He would of fit with Barrett perfectly.

jskinny35 wrote:

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:I don’t like a backcourt built around guys who can’t really shoot. I think either on their own is nice. Ivey alongside Barrett would be what we need. Barrett playing in the open floor with a guy like Ivey will unlock his game and make him a more efficient player. That is what we need. Daniels is a glue guy but Ivey with Barrett would be very dynamic.

Why you building around RJ then? He just showed us for 3 straight years that he can't really shoot.

Barrett shot 40% from 3pt without much spacing around him. High volume too. He’s proven he can shoot. You’re plan involves way too many unknowns for my taste. I know you’re down on Barrett somewhat over the years. He’s still not a guaranteed star. But if you move him it would need to be for a sure thing. But you can never say a guy who shoots 40% from 3 in a clunky lineup can’t shoot.

For me, you are trading for a guy in Ivey that will have an elite skill: his speed. I don't think RJ has an elite skill that he can fall back on when his shot is not falling or even one that he can use to separate himself. Ivey does AND pretty soon you need to make the Max decision on RJ.

RJ is just not good as a finisher at rim, below average FT shooter, sucks at the midrange. Even if he makes those MUCH better, that will still fall into the average range.

To put the 40% shooting into perspective, he has had about 4 good months of downtown shooting from over ~13 months worth of games across last 2 years; I don't think that makes him a proven shoot, IMO that's a shooter who got hot for a few months. And I don't think it's a spacing thing, a lot of those 3's are wide open.

Don't think that Randle trade has a chance - but sure wish it did. Not sure about RJ's ceiling but pairing him with an elite athletic SG could open things up for him and our team. Randle playing always slowed the pace down (except for 1/2 of the Lakers game when he looked great) and if we are set to build with IQ, Toppin - really think Ivey could boost RJ's production. Only caveat I have it how is Ivey's outside shot? I'm biased toward RJ but would move him for the right guy but is Ivey really a sure thing?

I would move RJ for Lavine or an established player but RJ's floor is a still a starter/guy you can win with (just not the star). How about you send Randle elsewhere and make the trade RJ to Portland for Anfernee Simons instead? He's up and coming but not yet a star - he seems like he has it and is somewhat proven. Randle to LA in salary dump which allows us to move up in draft, consolidate and reset by moving older expensive vets.

NY - Anfernee Simons, Bledsoe, Winslow, R. Westbrook, S. Johnson, #7 (Port)

LA - Julius Randle, D. Rose, Burks
(Westbrook off books and LA receives Randle, Rose quality backup PG, Burks solid bench scoring)

Portland - RJ Barrett, N. Noel, K. Walker, #11 pick (NY)
(RJ more complementary as a slasher whereas Simons is smaller w/Lillard, salary dump to NY (Winslow, Bledsoe), still keep a lottery pick)

NY Roster
Immanuel Quickley (McBride)
Anfernee Simons (Fournier)
Quentin Grimes (Cam Reddish, #7 wing pick - J.Davis/Mathurin/D.Daniels)
Obi Toppin (Taj)
Mitch Robinson (Sims)

Sit/Waive/Emergency - Westbrook, S. Johnson, Winslow, Bledsoe

EwingsGlass wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:I don’t like a backcourt built around guys who can’t really shoot. I think either on their own is nice. Ivey alongside Barrett would be what we need. Barrett playing in the open floor with a guy like Ivey will unlock his game and make him a more efficient player. That is what we need. Daniels is a glue guy but Ivey with Barrett would be very dynamic.

Why you building around RJ then? He just showed us for 3 straight years that he can't really shoot.

Barrett shot 40% from 3pt without much spacing around him. High volume too. He’s proven he can shoot. You’re plan involves way too many unknowns for my taste. I know you’re down on Barrett somewhat over the years. He’s still not a guaranteed star. But if you move him it would need to be for a sure thing. But you can never say a guy who shoots 40% from 3 in a clunky lineup can’t shoot.

For me, you are trading for a guy in Ivey that will have an elite skill: his speed. I don't think RJ has an elite skill that he can fall back on when his shot is not falling or even one that he can use to separate himself. Ivey does AND pretty soon you need to make the Max decision on RJ.

RJ is just not good as a finisher at rim, below average FT shooter, sucks at the midrange. Even if he makes those MUCH better, that will still fall into the average range.

To put the 40% shooting into perspective, he has had about 4 good months of downtown shooting from over ~13 months worth of games across last 2 years; I don't think that makes him a proven shoot, IMO that's a shooter who got hot for a few months. And I don't think it's a spacing thing, a lot of those 3's are wide open.

So your thought is to continue with the trend of blowing it up every 2-3 years? This time bringing in fast/athletic guys who aren't particularly accurate shooters in an NBA that is ever more focused on the 3 ball? Last year - Daniels shot 25% from 3, Ivey shot 36% (same as RJ's average from the longer NBA 3).

You also watch every game RJ plays and appear to focus on his flaws. Do you do the same for guys like Ivey? For instance, what do you know about his effort on D or how consistent his shooting is from game to game? The Purdue offense was built around a strong low post game - pounding low to Edey (7'4") and Williams (American his junior year). Defenses were often forced to collapse - allowing the guards/wings to roam free beyond the arc for kick-out open looks or dribble penetration or taking pre-occupying the other team's shot blocker. Ivey with a 29% usage rate averaged only 3 assists and close to 3 turnovers. By comparison Randle averaged almost the exact same usage for the Knicks last year with 5+ assists and 3+ turnovers - and people here want to run him out of town because he's a ball-stopper and flipped the bird. RJ averaged a notch below at 27+ usage with 3 assists and 2.2 TO - and I think you've claimed his passing ability to be sh!T.

I don't mind Ivey on the Knicks (with RJ) and as I've stated, he can be a beast of a shooting guard/wing if he continues to progress his outside shot. However giving up significant assets or emptying the roster to acquire him does not seem prudent to me.

You could use that same logic in a poker game. "So, your logic is to fold hands that you don't think can win?". Yes. My logic is not to "blow it up" but I am comfortable moving on from players that don't seem to be working out.

Your arguments against Ivey are more detailed than mine. I am not pro-Ivey, but I am pro-"Something has got to change".

I might be taking Barrett and Randle at their worst, but I don't think either is the lead player on a championship team and I don't think they can even defer to each other let alone another star player.

I'm not sure I fully understand your point. Are you saying Barrett who just turned 22 is extremely durable and almost always available, seems like a type who is a willing learner and hard worker, does not make waves and seems like a leader type is not working out?

Maybe the "something has got to change" is not Barrett but rather it's the lack of a dynamic player at the point.

Philc1 wrote:

MS wrote:Why are we in a rush to trade a guy that would be a senior in college and has proven he can play in NY and is committed to getting better.

RJ needs to be in the Julius spot where he is creating and has shooters around him.

He will work himself into a star.

And we have already had positive results with RJ, made the playoffs and while last year sucked we still won 37 games without a functioning point guard on the roster

Also remember though RJ struggled with few injuries, Barrett had to deal with Julius Randle crap' ..which can affect any 2nd star player on team
Randle put lots of pressure on teammates off & on the season, He's leader and needed to put a cap on his poor attitude's toward fans & team.
Too late now, however unless its blockbuster deals RJ deserves chance to remain a Knick !

martin wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:So, we are trading a guy who has proven to be able to score 20 ppg in the league, despite a low EFG%, for a guy who could end up being a total bust for all we know. How can one be so sure that Ivey is the next Wade and not the next Fultz?

Yes, that is what I am proposing. I am trying to project out what each player could be and how that player may be. Completely understand the bird in hand situation.

You can play the "Ivey may turn into Fultz" with every player in the draft. You can also predict that perhaps that player will turn out to be more like Mitchell.

That's what the scouting team is all about. I'm theoretically depending on what Walt Perrin is telling me and suggesting a scenario from there.

I am talking about a player who also may have a much higher ceiling than RJ.

Let's be clear: If there is a way to keep RJ and move Randle, etc. to get Ivey, I'm all for that.

I think there is no way we get Ivey, even if we are ready to move RJ.

Having said that, Ivey looks awesome, but you just never know. There are so many factors that go into how a player's ultimate career develops, many of which video does not pick up. DSJr's scouting videos also looked great, but something hit a snag along the way.

It's not really a bird in hand situation, it is more like giving up a stable high-paying job to go launch a tech startup.

I never got the sense this was heading for divorce and if it is it would be a well kept secret! That he did not hold out for a bigger deal said he wanted to be here. If he felt he should have then his play dictated his value was not all that and he needs to dial that **** back. I said IF. I am guessing like the rest of you.

IM not aware of Sac’s cap space to simply trade in Randle for the 4 cap hold. If so Barnes comes back on a one year left on his deal. I like Jules enough but not so to not do that deal. But its all low probability chit chat.