HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

fishmike wrote:

smackeddog wrote:I'm not even entertaining this as it's just going to disappoint me more on draft day when we draft a role player and/or trade down to do so. Rose in danger of becoming Danny Ainge-esq with the 'almost trades' that never seem to happen!

Would love it if it happened though- I always think of that quote that GM's/teams are either selling results or hope- we have neither at the moment, so a trade like this gives us clear direction (hope) rather than the 'tread water and hope a star becomes available' (while being a limbo fringe playoff team with late lottery to mid first round picks)

hard to argue with the bold... they are a very conservative FO.

Not for me. Last 2 years the FO hasn't had the right opportunity to strike, that's very different than being conservative. They are plodding to an extent but I think it's more calculated than conservative as well.

When you don't have bullets, you can shoot the gun. The Knicks now have some bullets. We shall see where it goes.

You may be right. One thing to keep in mind is that, so far, the FO seems to like going for value in the draft. Which seems to be by trading down and getting multiple picks then filling a need with a player they felt has fallen to them and represented good value.
However, as you mentioned, perhaps they have not seen a true difference maker within grasp who they felt was worth trading up for. Ivey may be one. Or maybe it was because it proved too costly to do so. Which may be the case with Ivey.

Not for nothing but the Knicks have been the opposite of conservative, but it has been on the trade down track to gather assets. They have been aggressively doing that. They just haven't made the high profiles upward splash.

I think they are going to go hard after Ivey but need to do it in a way to not outbid themselves.

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

fishmike wrote:

smackeddog wrote:I'm not even entertaining this as it's just going to disappoint me more on draft day when we draft a role player and/or trade down to do so. Rose in danger of becoming Danny Ainge-esq with the 'almost trades' that never seem to happen!

Would love it if it happened though- I always think of that quote that GM's/teams are either selling results or hope- we have neither at the moment, so a trade like this gives us clear direction (hope) rather than the 'tread water and hope a star becomes available' (while being a limbo fringe playoff team with late lottery to mid first round picks)

hard to argue with the bold... they are a very conservative FO.

Not for me. Last 2 years the FO hasn't had the right opportunity to strike, that's very different than being conservative. They are plodding to an extent but I think it's more calculated than conservative as well.

When you don't have bullets, you can shoot the gun. The Knicks now have some bullets. We shall see where it goes.

You may be right. One thing to keep in mind is that, so far, the FO seems to like going for value in the draft. Which seems to be by trading down and getting multiple picks then filling a need with a player they felt has fallen to them and represented good value.
However, as you mentioned, perhaps they have not seen a true difference maker within grasp who they felt was worth trading up for. Ivey may be one. Or maybe it was because it proved too costly to do so. Which may be the case with Ivey.

I think this FO is very calculated with their moves. Usually our FO (of the past) tries to make a big splash by any means necessary. Trading down is easier to find value that way. Usually you get more picks while the other team is simply trying to move up. But when we try to move up, we have to remove the word value, and think potential (Ivey). I don't think this FO will pull the trigger on an upward trade. But I think Ivey might be the one player I would trade up for. I think he has a potential to impact the game like a water downed version of JA. All depends on his work ethic after drafted. But his base is solid and star potential is high.

franco12 wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:The more I learn about Ivey I think we are best served to not trade up and take one of the available at #11 (J.Davis, Branham, Griffin, Eason) as it would cost too much if we are able to move up. Randle is not long for this team (eg I believe will be gone by deadline next season) so we should try to keep Obi. Not interested in parting with IQ unless it's for a veteran PG.

Also if you watched video when J. Davis matched up with Ivey - he pretty much handled him overall. Not saying Ivey isn't going to be a really good player - but not sure we should lose picks and young players when we are already needing talent at most every position. And J. Davis/Mathurin could also be a really good player. We def need talent in bulk and don't think we should consolidate with parting with the younger players who are still developing.

The top 3 of Chet, Jabari and Pablo look like can't miss prospects.

It's pretty much a crapshoot after top 3 so will trust our FO and hope someone falls... almost always happens.

I am all for combining and upgrading talent, but I'm not sure Ivey is a sure fire better talent than many of the players available to us at 11.

I personally am really liking Agbaji and hope we get him to drop and we can pick him.

I've seen enough of Ivey to know he can be shut down by better defenders and good scheming. While that may not be problematic, what is for me is that when frustrated he has shown to get wild and make bad decisions.

martin wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

fishmike wrote:

smackeddog wrote:I'm not even entertaining this as it's just going to disappoint me more on draft day when we draft a role player and/or trade down to do so. Rose in danger of becoming Danny Ainge-esq with the 'almost trades' that never seem to happen!

Would love it if it happened though- I always think of that quote that GM's/teams are either selling results or hope- we have neither at the moment, so a trade like this gives us clear direction (hope) rather than the 'tread water and hope a star becomes available' (while being a limbo fringe playoff team with late lottery to mid first round picks)

hard to argue with the bold... they are a very conservative FO.

Not for me. Last 2 years the FO hasn't had the right opportunity to strike, that's very different than being conservative. They are plodding to an extent but I think it's more calculated than conservative as well.

When you don't have bullets, you can shoot the gun. The Knicks now have some bullets. We shall see where it goes.

You may be right. One thing to keep in mind is that, so far, the FO seems to like going for value in the draft. Which seems to be by trading down and getting multiple picks then filling a need with a player they felt has fallen to them and represented good value.
However, as you mentioned, perhaps they have not seen a true difference maker within grasp who they felt was worth trading up for. Ivey may be one. Or maybe it was because it proved too costly to do so. Which may be the case with Ivey.

Not for nothing but the Knicks have been the opposite of conservative, but it has been on the trade down track to gather assets. They have been aggressively doing that. They just haven't made the high profiles upward splash.

I think they are going to go hard after Ivey but need to do it in a way to not outbid themselves.

Wait, you don't think EF was a big splash?! Lol

Trying to figure out what other teams may be able to offer. Think the Knicks would have to include IQ or Grimes.

EwingsGlass wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

franco12 wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:The more I learn about Ivey I think we are best served to not trade up and take one of the available at #11 (J.Davis, Branham, Griffin, Eason) as it would cost too much if we are able to move up. Randle is not long for this team (eg I believe will be gone by deadline next season) so we should try to keep Obi. Not interested in parting with IQ unless it's for a veteran PG.

Also if you watched video when J. Davis matched up with Ivey - he pretty much handled him overall. Not saying Ivey isn't going to be a really good player - but not sure we should lose picks and young players when we are already needing talent at most every position. And J. Davis/Mathurin could also be a really good player. We def need talent in bulk and don't think we should consolidate with parting with the younger players who are still developing.

The top 3 of Chet, Jabari and Pablo look like can't miss prospects.

It's pretty much a crapshoot after top 3 so will trust our FO and hope someone falls... almost always happens.

I am all for combining and upgrading talent, but I'm not sure Ivey is a sure fire better talent than many of the players available to us at 11.

I personally am really liking Agbaji and hope we get him to drop and we can pick him.

I've seen enough of Ivey to know he can be shut down by better defenders and good scheming. While that may not be problematic, what is for me is that when frustrated he has shown to get wild and make bad decisions.

With Ivey, I think people see Ja Morant and believe Ivey is Morant. There are similarities, but the things I liked about Morant the most was his court vision. Despite similar body types, Morant averaged 24 points and 10 assist per game at Murray State. Ivey averaged 17 points and 3 assists at Purdue. I think that Ivey is a scorer and will continue to score effectively in the NBA, but I see more of a Jerry Bayless than Ja Morant. That passing acumen is what makes Ja what he is, not just his athleticism.

Agree. Simply put both have superior athleticism and can get to the rim, however Ja is a PG and Ivey is a SG. Those who think you'll be able to plug Ivey into a lead guard role as a rookie and he'll be some type of savior will likely be disappointed. His Assist to TO ratio was 2.6 / 2.1 and his decision making is sometimes very questionable. He also shot only .322 from 3. IMO Ivey will be a significant weapon if he continues to develop his outside efficiency and on a team that already has a solid player at the point.

franco12 wrote:

martin wrote:

foosballnick wrote:Agree. Simply put both have superior athleticism and can get to the rim, however Ja is a PG and Ivey is a SG. Those who think you'll be able to plug Ivey into a lead guard role as a rookie and he'll be some type of savior will likely be disappointed. His Assist to TO ratio was 2.6 / 2.1 and his decision making is sometimes very questionable. He also shot only .322 from 3. IMO Ivey will be a significant weapon if he continues to develop his outside efficiency and on a team that already has a solid player at the point.

Just to be clear, that was his average for 2 years in college. Shot a respectable 36% on significantly higher volume while being the best player on Purdue in his second season?

And if we are focused on shooting %, and that should weigh heavily on our decision, Agbaji should be the pick. His 3pt% increased every year and was .407% this year with an EFG% .570%.

And his measurables were very nice at the combine. I want to stand pat unless it's to move up for Agbaji.

My pick. Don't think he will be there at 11 though. Hoping.

HofstraBBall wrote:

franco12 wrote:

martin wrote:

foosballnick wrote:Agree. Simply put both have superior athleticism and can get to the rim, however Ja is a PG and Ivey is a SG. Those who think you'll be able to plug Ivey into a lead guard role as a rookie and he'll be some type of savior will likely be disappointed. His Assist to TO ratio was 2.6 / 2.1 and his decision making is sometimes very questionable. He also shot only .322 from 3. IMO Ivey will be a significant weapon if he continues to develop his outside efficiency and on a team that already has a solid player at the point.

Just to be clear, that was his average for 2 years in college. Shot a respectable 36% on significantly higher volume while being the best player on Purdue in his second season?

And if we are focused on shooting %, and that should weigh heavily on our decision, Agbaji should be the pick. His 3pt% increased every year and was .407% this year with an EFG% .570%.

And his measurables were very nice at the combine. I want to stand pat unless it's to move up for Agbaji.

My pick. Don't think he will be there at 11 though. Hoping.

I'd be happy with Ochai Agbaji. He's got a lot of "it". This year's combine stats are weirder than usual. Seems like more and more players are not participating in the Agility testing each year.

BigDaddyG wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

franco12 wrote:

martin wrote:

foosballnick wrote:Agree. Simply put both have superior athleticism and can get to the rim, however Ja is a PG and Ivey is a SG. Those who think you'll be able to plug Ivey into a lead guard role as a rookie and he'll be some type of savior will likely be disappointed. His Assist to TO ratio was 2.6 / 2.1 and his decision making is sometimes very questionable. He also shot only .322 from 3. IMO Ivey will be a significant weapon if he continues to develop his outside efficiency and on a team that already has a solid player at the point.

Just to be clear, that was his average for 2 years in college. Shot a respectable 36% on significantly higher volume while being the best player on Purdue in his second season?

And if we are focused on shooting %, and that should weigh heavily on our decision, Agbaji should be the pick. His 3pt% increased every year and was .407% this year with an EFG% .570%.

And his measurables were very nice at the combine. I want to stand pat unless it's to move up for Agbaji.

My pick. Don't think he will be there at 11 though. Hoping.

I'd be happy with Ochai Agbaji. He's got a lot of "it". This year's combine stats are weirder than usual. Seems like more and more players are not participating in the Agility testing each year.

I'd be lukewarm on Agbaji. Impressive athleticism, but he projects as a Grimes type 3&D. I don't buy the shot creation or the upside.

Disagree. Think he is a pick that some will overthink.
Kid was the best player on the best team in the country.
He will contribute right away in the NBA.
Has years of college experience.
High IQ.
His handle can improve but he can absolutely create through movement and pull ups.
Agree about "Three and D". Exactly what solid NBA players need today.

But hey, we will see. Think he is a safe pick that will make us better right away.
Who you leaning to?

BigDaddyG wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

franco12 wrote:

martin wrote:

foosballnick wrote:Agree. Simply put both have superior athleticism and can get to the rim, however Ja is a PG and Ivey is a SG. Those who think you'll be able to plug Ivey into a lead guard role as a rookie and he'll be some type of savior will likely be disappointed. His Assist to TO ratio was 2.6 / 2.1 and his decision making is sometimes very questionable. He also shot only .322 from 3. IMO Ivey will be a significant weapon if he continues to develop his outside efficiency and on a team that already has a solid player at the point.

Just to be clear, that was his average for 2 years in college. Shot a respectable 36% on significantly higher volume while being the best player on Purdue in his second season?

And if we are focused on shooting %, and that should weigh heavily on our decision, Agbaji should be the pick. His 3pt% increased every year and was .407% this year with an EFG% .570%.

And his measurables were very nice at the combine. I want to stand pat unless it's to move up for Agbaji.

My pick. Don't think he will be there at 11 though. Hoping.

I'd be happy with Ochai Agbaji. He's got a lot of "it". This year's combine stats are weirder than usual. Seems like more and more players are not participating in the Agility testing each year.

I'd be lukewarm on Agbaji. Impressive athleticism, but he projects as a Grimes type 3&D. I don't buy the shot creation or the upside.

Disagree. Think he is a pick that some will overthink.
Kid was the best player on the best team in the country.
He will contribute right away in the NBA.
Has years of college experience.
High IQ.
His handle can improve but he can absolutely create through movement and pull ups.
Agree about "Three and D". Exactly what solid NBA players need today.

But hey, we will see. Think he is a safe pick that will make us better right away.
Who you leaning to?

I'm leaning Branham or Sochan out of the guys likely to be there when we pick. I'm just impressed with Branham's skill in the PnR, his ability to create shots at all three levels and his potential as a playmaker. I understand the defensive concerns, but he is young and has a reputation as a hard worker. As for Sochan, he has the defensive utility that would allow Thibs to run out smaller lineup if he were inclined too. While RJ did a commendable job, he's not a guy I necessarily want guarding opposing team's best wing. Sochan has also flashed good passing and ball movement skills. I think he can become an average/ above average shooter from the corners as well.

Think Branham is solid. Although I prefer a slightly taller SF (which would help him on defense), I feel he too would have immediate impact. Picked him as one of the guys we could get lower though. If we traded down with Charlotte.

Not a fan of Sochan for us at 11. Feels like a Frank type pick. Meaning, solid role player but not worth a first round pick. Also, Knicks have two PF's. Can't see him as a SF due to lack of shooting.

BRIGGS wrote:

martin wrote:

franco12 wrote:

martin wrote:

foosballnick wrote:Agree. Simply put both have superior athleticism and can get to the rim, however Ja is a PG and Ivey is a SG. Those who think you'll be able to plug Ivey into a lead guard role as a rookie and he'll be some type of savior will likely be disappointed. His Assist to TO ratio was 2.6 / 2.1 and his decision making is sometimes very questionable. He also shot only .322 from 3. IMO Ivey will be a significant weapon if he continues to develop his outside efficiency and on a team that already has a solid player at the point.

Just to be clear, that was his average for 2 years in college. Shot a respectable 36% on significantly higher volume while being the best player on Purdue in his second season?

And if we are focused on shooting %, and that should weigh heavily on our decision, Agbaji should be the pick. His 3pt% increased every year and was .407% this year with an EFG% .570%.

And his measurables were very nice at the combine. I want to stand pat unless it's to move up for Agbaji.

But you also should project out too. At the same time in their college careers, Agbaji shot 34% from distance.

Knicks already have Grimes. What is Agbaji getting you at #11 that you don't already have?

Martin dead on
We have grimes abs Fournier. Do we need another catch and shoot sg?
We have an athletic f who barely plays. Do we need dieng sochan aj griffin

We do need a playmaker. We lack playmakers. Guys who make others better

I agree we need a play maker. I just think with Thibs, he had Burks playing PG- and Agbaji, as a 4 year player, can step in right away, and possibly develop into that kind of orchestrator for Thibs.

If we trade up, I just hope whoever we nab justifies it.