Vmart wrote:

Clean wrote:The FO was stuck between a rock and a hard place. We needed offense badly. We got locked up by the Hawks and they are terrible on D. SO if we brought the same team back this year we had no chance of going through the Heat, Celtics or Bucks. We need offensive players because our coaches offense is not good enough to carry the players we have and we ISO Randle WAY too much for how inefficient he is. Also the Kemba part of the equation is a little overblown. Our roster was set when we added him. We did not go out of our way to sign him at the start of the offseason. We added him into the left over cap space we had when he came free and we still had room. The problem is we kept playing him when it was obvious things were never going to work out. It was the theme of the last season. Heavy minutes to the players who are not playing well and hope they can figure it out.

That’s what I’m getting at, they don’t trust the process of development. You have to think RJB will improve, Quickly, Obi will improve. They don’t trust the process enough and they succumb to try and hit home runs. When no home run hitters are available. One bad series should not affect a teams forward progression. When the team is young you’re building towards goals. You mentioned Heat, Bucks and Celtics they had to do their time. Just look at Brown and Tatum they had to do their time and develop. Even they took their shots with FA and it didn’t work for them. Bucks another team that did their time. Heat lucked into a finals but you see today that they develop players as well. Front office took a young and rising team and made them old and suppressed. Thibs just plays into it because he doesn’t trust young players. If front office doesn’t add Fournier and Kemba I guarantee that Thibs would have been forced to play the young players sooner rather than later.

I don't see it that way at all. Not sure how you can say they have not applied the principles & process of development to younger players like RJ, Mitch, IQ and Grimes. While the moves impacted defensive efficiency - adding Kemba & Fournier to replace Elf and Bullock did not suddenly make the entire roster old & suppressed.

Also - I don't really understand your point regarding Thibs "keep playing" Kemba:

- Kemba was DNP'd for 10 games after the first 19 games of the season.
- He then played 6 games and was again inactivated for the next 9 games.
- After that he played a total of 13 games and was inactivated for the remainder of the season.

foosballnick wrote:

Vmart wrote:

Clean wrote:The FO was stuck between a rock and a hard place. We needed offense badly. We got locked up by the Hawks and they are terrible on D. SO if we brought the same team back this year we had no chance of going through the Heat, Celtics or Bucks. We need offensive players because our coaches offense is not good enough to carry the players we have and we ISO Randle WAY too much for how inefficient he is. Also the Kemba part of the equation is a little overblown. Our roster was set when we added him. We did not go out of our way to sign him at the start of the offseason. We added him into the left over cap space we had when he came free and we still had room. The problem is we kept playing him when it was obvious things were never going to work out. It was the theme of the last season. Heavy minutes to the players who are not playing well and hope they can figure it out.

That’s what I’m getting at, they don’t trust the process of development. You have to think RJB will improve, Quickly, Obi will improve. They don’t trust the process enough and they succumb to try and hit home runs. When no home run hitters are available. One bad series should not affect a teams forward progression. When the team is young you’re building towards goals. You mentioned Heat, Bucks and Celtics they had to do their time. Just look at Brown and Tatum they had to do their time and develop. Even they took their shots with FA and it didn’t work for them. Bucks another team that did their time. Heat lucked into a finals but you see today that they develop players as well. Front office took a young and rising team and made them old and suppressed. Thibs just plays into it because he doesn’t trust young players. If front office doesn’t add Fournier and Kemba I guarantee that Thibs would have been forced to play the young players sooner rather than later.

I don't see it that way at all. Not sure how you can say they have not applied the principles & process of development to younger players like RJ, Mitch, IQ and Grimes. While the moves impacted defensive efficiency - adding Kemba & Fournier to replace Elf and Bullock did not suddenly make the entire roster old & suppressed.

Also - I don't really understand your point regarding Thibs "keep playing" Kemba:

- Kemba was DNP'd for 10 games after the first 19 games of the season.
- He then played 6 games and was again inactivated for the next 9 games.
- After that he played a total of 13 games and was inactivated for the remainder of the season.

Kemba is shot he is a defensive liability. My point being why even add a Kemba to the team or Fournier these were unnecessary moves. Moves that had no bearing on improvement. If anything the Knicks had everything they needed already on the team. Thibs sucked the youth movement right out of the team he didn’t build on last years development and basically stagnated the process with poor rotations. Playing Burks at PG was absolutely a stupid move. There was poor scheme development and the lack of accountability by both the coach and Randle did this team in. The defense suffered and offense was not as good as last years. Playing through Burks and Randle was a disaster as Burks was not a point guard, Randle just couldn’t handle the pressure of being point PF as his turnovers increase he reverted to the year before the last year.
I do stand by that Thibs and FO were the culprits of youth not playing. Players need minutes and they didn’t get the necessary big minutes they deserved. Once Rose and Kemba were done. The PG should have been turned over to Quickly and McBride ASAP. Obi should have been the first off the bench not Thaj Gibson. Everyone is Grimes do you guys realize Grimes played because of COVID protocols and played well in that time. Otherwise no protocol you wouldn’t even be talking about him. A protocol forced Thibs hand or he was going to practice as JVG said insanity doing the same over and over again.
When management has to step in to tell coach to play the young and JVG calls Thibs out for insanity. I wonder sometimes what season you guys watched. Everyone seems to be painting some rosy picture of this past season.

wargames wrote:I just want the Warriors to beat Boston

Please to god yes. I don't understand how any Knick fan can root for Boston regardless of who they are playing against. They could play the devil for our souls and I would still root against Boston.

foosballnick wrote:

Vmart wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Vmart wrote:

Clean wrote:The FO was stuck between a rock and a hard place. We needed offense badly. We got locked up by the Hawks and they are terrible on D. SO if we brought the same team back this year we had no chance of going through the Heat, Celtics or Bucks. We need offensive players because our coaches offense is not good enough to carry the players we have and we ISO Randle WAY too much for how inefficient he is. Also the Kemba part of the equation is a little overblown. Our roster was set when we added him. We did not go out of our way to sign him at the start of the offseason. We added him into the left over cap space we had when he came free and we still had room. The problem is we kept playing him when it was obvious things were never going to work out. It was the theme of the last season. Heavy minutes to the players who are not playing well and hope they can figure it out.

That’s what I’m getting at, they don’t trust the process of development. You have to think RJB will improve, Quickly, Obi will improve. They don’t trust the process enough and they succumb to try and hit home runs. When no home run hitters are available. One bad series should not affect a teams forward progression. When the team is young you’re building towards goals. You mentioned Heat, Bucks and Celtics they had to do their time. Just look at Brown and Tatum they had to do their time and develop. Even they took their shots with FA and it didn’t work for them. Bucks another team that did their time. Heat lucked into a finals but you see today that they develop players as well. Front office took a young and rising team and made them old and suppressed. Thibs just plays into it because he doesn’t trust young players. If front office doesn’t add Fournier and Kemba I guarantee that Thibs would have been forced to play the young players sooner rather than later.

I don't see it that way at all. Not sure how you can say they have not applied the principles & process of development to younger players like RJ, Mitch, IQ and Grimes. While the moves impacted defensive efficiency - adding Kemba & Fournier to replace Elf and Bullock did not suddenly make the entire roster old & suppressed.

Also - I don't really understand your point regarding Thibs "keep playing" Kemba:

- Kemba was DNP'd for 10 games after the first 19 games of the season.
- He then played 6 games and was again inactivated for the next 9 games.
- After that he played a total of 13 games and was inactivated for the remainder of the season.

Kemba is shot he is a defensive liability. My point being why even add a Kemba to the team or Fournier these were unnecessary moves. Moves that had no bearing on improvement. If anything the Knicks had everything they needed already on the team. Thibs sucked the youth movement right out of the team he didn’t build on last years development and basically stagnated the process with poor rotations. Playing Burks at PG was absolutely a stupid move. There was poor scheme development and the lack of accountability by both the coach and Randle did this team in. The defense suffered and offense was not as good as last years. Playing through Burks and Randle was a disaster as Burks was not a point guard, Randle just couldn’t handle the pressure of being point PF as his turnovers increase he reverted to the year before the last year.
I do stand by that Thibs and FO were the culprits of youth not playing. Players need minutes and they didn’t get the necessary big minutes they deserved. Once Rose and Kemba were done. The PG should have been turned over to Quickly and McBride ASAP. Obi should have been the first off the bench not Thaj Gibson. Everyone is Grimes do you guys realize Grimes played because of COVID protocols and played well in that time. Otherwise no protocol you wouldn’t even be talking about him. A protocol forced Thibs hand or he was going to practice as JVG said insanity doing the same over and over again.
When management has to step in to tell coach to play the young and JVG calls Thibs out for insanity. I wonder sometimes what season you guys watched. Everyone seems to be painting some rosy picture of this past season.

No one is painting a rosy picture of last season. The issue is that you are playing Monday morning QB as well as expressing revisionist history.

Which youth are you specifically talking about not playing nor being developed?

- RJ has been a starter with near top minutes on the team
- Mitch was a starter coming off injury
- IQ was giving significant minutes to develop both as a starter and reserve and as Lead/PG
- Grimes was given a chance due to COVID and became a starter before injury forced him out for the year
- Cam was acquired for Knox and was offered limited minutes for a short stint before he was injured/out for the year
- Sims was inserted for the last 23 games with more significant minutes and even started 5 games

So that leaves Obi and McBride.....and lets face it, if you distill it down, they are who you really are talking about since 5 out of the 8 yoots were given roles of significance during the season.

So lets get some facts straight:

The team has essentially played mainly through Randle on offense for the past 3 seasons which invalidates your point on Randle not being able to handle the pressure of being a point forward in 2021-22.

Kemba was a roster addition that failed. If Kemba had not been added, that would likely have meant the FO would have retained Elf, which would have meant even less playing time for IQ at point guard - hence less development opportunity.

Fournier was added to replace Bullock and add offensive punch for a Knicks team that was offensively challenged in 2020-21. Ultimately it hurt the defense, however EF played well on offense for much of the season and if Bullock had been re-signed, it would not have created any further development opportunities for Grimes or Cam.

Obi was stuck behind Randle. As a fan, I would have liked to see an average of +7 minutes with a similar reduction by Randle. Not sure why you are bringing Taj into the equation as he played center and was really only back-up PF when there was lineup problems due to fouls & injury. You are also totally discounting the locker room factor in all of this. Being an NBA Head Coach is not like playing a video game where you can plug and play different guys on a whim. There are egos to work with within the locker room. Unfortunately Thibs has to work with Randle's ego coming off a career year and signing an extension. Randle obviously has talent, but perhaps he has a fragile ego that Thibs has to manage and this came at the expense of giving Obi extra minutes. Or perhaps Obi is just slower in his development. For instance he shot poorly for the first half of the season before coming on strong in the 2nd half.

McBride was really an unknown factor. While it's true that when Kemba was benched and Rose was injured, Thibs could have turned to McBride instead of Burks at the point. I would think however that a coach's job is to try and win and perhaps Thibs felt McBride was not ready to lead the team and was better served with significant playing time in the G-League. Also worth noting that the team played .500 (21-21) with Burks as a starter. It's likely that Thibs felt Burks/IQ gave the team the best chances with Rose/Kemba out of the lineup.

This FO hasnt been perfect but we finally are showing a commitment to the draft and bringing in 2 way athletic guys and developing them and in 2 years they have done a good job with every pick and the coach has them ready to play.

Nalod wrote:From POst article today about Kemba:

The Post previously reported the Knicks analytics staff pushed the Walker signing when the franchise passed on free agents such as Lonzo Ball, Kyle Lowry, Spencer Dinwiddie, Dennis Schroeder, Reggie Jackson and Cam Payne.

Reggie had a good return year but was always rooted to return to LA. Ball has knee issue that ruined his season. Schoroeder and Payne fizzled, and Lowrey at 28mil per year looks like retired Paul pierce. Dinwiddie in DC vs Dallas is two different takes. Which one would have been a knick?

At 9mil per Kemba was a cost effective high risk. We lost. but 9mil makes him trade Fodder MAYBE.
Kemba is. A good dude, respected and well liked. Sometimes you win, sometomes you don’t. Im ok with this one. I don’t look for reasons to hate on Thibs so I don’t see his banashment as that. Why? Kemba never complained and until otherwise Im thinking it was mutual. Maybe IM wrong?

Lots of good stuff here. A lot of teams crapped out on their PG upgrades. Schroeder is still available this off season.

DJMUSIC wrote:

NYKMentality wrote:WTF are both of Kemba Walker and Evan freaking Fournier doing on the KNICKS?

They need to be removed and removed asap.

I swear.

If Kemba Walker and especially Evan Fournier start again?

I won't watch.

Kemba Walker and especially Evan Fournier completely ruined and destroyed coach Thibs Defensive Identify (I said it from day 1).

and it's no coincidence how Boston gets rid of both atrocious scrubs and immediately makes the NBA finals the following season.

I'd rather go 0-82 than have to watch Kemba/Fournier play another single second.

(rant over).

WELL said ! by author of topic.
Is reason why Celts in finals and going to pay $$$ J.Tatum and J.Brown all the contract they want.
Knicks would NEVER be in this position at MSG.

I'm curious to know why Thibs, Perry, and Rose did not put the importance of D.Rose & Bullocks names as the first two Knicks FA players to be resign ASAP last offseason (No Bullocks = No team-Defense and No D.Rose = No team-Offense)?
Those two Knicks players were the foundation in a successful rotation making them our best FA players inwhich D.Rose & Bullocks performance each night improve their teammates performance to have a successful 41 win season.

I'm also curious to know who decision it was (Rose? Perry) to sign Fournier and Kemba?
When the Knicks 1-4 postseason presence vs Atlanta Hawks told & showed each and every weakness in the Knicks rotation in just 5 games .. and Kemba & Fournier type of performance was not the answer to any of the Knicks problems.
The Knicks biggest weakness was letting a non-defensive player Randle call all the shots on offense for 40 minutes a game as the Knicks PG.
The Knicks never experimented in putting Payton & Frank defense in the back-court as tandems to expose opponents top-scoring guards.
The Mavs coach Kidd had PG Brunson, PG Dinwiddie, PG Frank, and PG Doncic in games rotation, sometime having 3 PG in the lineup throughout the entire quarter of postseason games to get to the WCF.
The Knicks 2nd biggest problem are/were RJ Barretts talent/skills are not a NBA guard, nor a NBA starter, nor an above 29 minute player the past 3 seasons.

NYKMentality wrote:Getting rid of Kemba Walker was a dream come true for me due to his atrocious Defense.

Now it's time for Evan Fournier to get the boot (or become glued to the bench) due to absolute atrocious Defense.

(I'd much rather see Grimes start @ SG before Fournier).

C; Mitchell Robinson.
PF: Julius Randle.
SF: R.J. Barrett.
SG: Quentin Grimes.
PG: Jalen Brunson.

I'm not as high on Brunson as most and no, I won't be a. idiot predicting 60+ wins again etc but that's at least a starting 5 with kids like Immanuel Quickley and Obi Toppin that I can at least be excited for to see play every night.

Would prefer a bigger, more athletic guy who's more a 2 way player but Brunson plays super hard and is the right kind of guy you want to get beat out. What I am saying is he's a good player but we are also paying for his culture (work ethic etc)

martin wrote:

NYKMentality wrote:Getting rid of Kemba Walker was a dream come true for me due to his atrocious Defense.

Now it's time for Evan Fournier to get the boot (or become glued to the bench) due to absolute atrocious Defense.

(I'd much rather see Grimes start @ SG before Fournier).

C; Mitchell Robinson.
PF: Julius Randle.
SF: R.J. Barrett.
SG: Quentin Grimes.
PG: Jalen Brunson.

I'm not as high on Brunson as most and no, I won't be a. idiot predicting 60+ wins again etc but that's at least a starting 5 with kids like Immanuel Quickley and Obi Toppin that I can at least be excited for to see play every night.

Let's be honest, by the time opening night comes and Knicks win it in a blowout with Brunson leading the way by making it easier for every other player, you will be the first to predict a 65 win season

Even Vegas thinks it's even odds

F that I’m predicting a “DYNASTY”.

Get rid of and/or don't play Kemba Walker and especially Evan Fournier (who completely ruined and destroyed our Tom Thibs identity) and GOOD THINGS ARE BOUND TO HAPPEN.

NYKMentality wrote:Getting rid of Kemba Walker was a dream come true for me due to his atrocious Defense.

Now it's time for Evan Fournier to get the boot (or become glued to the bench) due to absolute atrocious Defense.

(I'd much rather see Grimes start @ SG before Fournier).

C; Mitchell Robinson.
PF: Julius Randle.
SF: R.J. Barrett.
SG: Quentin Grimes.
PG: Jalen Brunson.

I'm not as high on Brunson as most and no, I won't be a. idiot predicting 60+ wins again etc but that's at least a starting 5 with kids like Immanuel Quickley and Obi Toppin that I can at least be excited for to see play every night.

Its good to get high!

MaTT4281 wrote:

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=63219&page=13

NYKMentality wrote:

NYKMentality wrote:Omg I hope this is true I absolutely LOVE Kemba Walker and want him more than I did Lonzo Ball!

He's a dual threat PG who has a career average of 19.9 Points per game and 5.4 assists per game as an attacking PG.

Also a 4x All-Star 2016, 2017, 2018 and 2019!

And last year averaged 19.3 points and 4.9 assists per game!

I hope this is true because I'll freaking CELEBRATE over KEMBA WALKER!

Bump!!!!