fishmike wrote:

Nalod wrote:Why can’t we play both?
randle seems leaner the last two years. Either he bulks back up and is the PF doing that bully ball or up the pace and pay SF.

Im hoping randle can fix himself and they can solve some chemistry issues. not sure that can be but I can’t rule it out. If “jWe Here” randle is still relevant, and we have an OBI that has range, is this common theory still true? RJ at the 2?

Start IQ? OR do a deal for Brunson.
I think Evan has played back to his contract and was durable. he has trade value. As does one of Grimes/Cam, and we have plethora of 2nd picks and the Mavs pick also.
There is a world of possibilities. One is Randle and OBI co-existing.

phuck no to Brunson. Lets pass on paying high for midgets. I agree with you on chemistry which is why you start IQ next year and pair him with Burks. Those two brings size/shooting/ball handling/can run plays... neither are great full time PGs, but together they look fantastic.
Move Fournier to the bench where Thibs can ride his hot nights and sit his cold ones.
Rose is IQ's back up. Then you have McBride and someone you draft or a vet that fits well.

Dumping Randle is an emotional move, not a tactical one. He's still much better than Obi, but its also obvious Obi needs time and minutes to grow. Something like Bledsoe and pick sets us WAAAAY back unless you get some really wild contributions from other guys.

I agree that Randle is better than Obi because Randle has more experience. And Obi is not an ISO player. Randle thinks he's an ISO player. Advantage Randle. But what about team chemistry? Seems like Obi's game injects energy into the offense from a different perspective than Randle. So it's really not fair to compare them since their impact on the team is totally different.

And the only thing emotional with a Randle trade is Randle. The home fans (if Randle comes back) will let him have it all year. Unless Randle can play through it, he will be mentally drained even more next season. Seems like a logical move to me. This FO has done a great job adding young players. They have not done a good job adding vets. If we keep Randle, we are now asking the FO to do what they haven't done, which is build vets around Randle.

IQ
Burks
RJ
Randle
Robinson

Rose
Fournier
Grimes
Toppin
Noel

Reddish, 2022 1st
Very strong bench. Lots of wildcards in starting lineup. Thibs also needs to man up and sit Randle when he’s on bull****. Hold his ass accountable.

Find a way to sign Rubio as insurance or if desperate trade Burks and Reddish and Kemba to Indiana for Brogdon.

franco12 wrote:

blkexec wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Nalod wrote:Why can’t we play both?
randle seems leaner the last two years. Either he bulks back up and is the PF doing that bully ball or up the pace and pay SF.

Im hoping randle can fix himself and they can solve some chemistry issues. not sure that can be but I can’t rule it out. If “jWe Here” randle is still relevant, and we have an OBI that has range, is this common theory still true? RJ at the 2?

Start IQ? OR do a deal for Brunson.
I think Evan has played back to his contract and was durable. he has trade value. As does one of Grimes/Cam, and we have plethora of 2nd picks and the Mavs pick also.
There is a world of possibilities. One is Randle and OBI co-existing.

phuck no to Brunson. Lets pass on paying high for midgets. I agree with you on chemistry which is why you start IQ next year and pair him with Burks. Those two brings size/shooting/ball handling/can run plays... neither are great full time PGs, but together they look fantastic.
Move Fournier to the bench where Thibs can ride his hot nights and sit his cold ones.
Rose is IQ's back up. Then you have McBride and someone you draft or a vet that fits well.

Dumping Randle is an emotional move, not a tactical one. He's still much better than Obi, but its also obvious Obi needs time and minutes to grow. Something like Bledsoe and pick sets us WAAAAY back unless you get some really wild contributions from other guys.

I agree that Randle is better than Obi because Randle has more experience. And Obi is not an ISO player. Randle thinks he's an ISO player. Advantage Randle. But what about team chemistry? Seems like Obi's game injects energy into the offense from a different perspective than Randle. So it's really not fair to compare them since their impact on the team is totally different.

And the only thing emotional with a Randle trade is Randle. The home fans (if Randle comes back) will let him have it all year. Unless Randle can play through it, he will be mentally drained even more next season. Seems like a logical move to me. This FO has done a great job adding young players. They have not done a good job adding vets. If we keep Randle, we are now asking the FO to do what they haven't done, which is build vets around Randle.

you think fans are going to boo Randle next year? Fans are fickle, but they have short attention spans.

However, if we see the moping and poor body language, which I don't expect, then yes, there will be problems.

It's weird how much more fluid the team play has been without Randle. I know it's end of year and a lot of teams we were playing were out of it or resting players. But it's like Randle can't operate in the system Thibs is trying to create.

Randle's work out should be passing drills all summer long! Like - move the ball up and down the court without dribble.

Same with Obi - somehow he was just kind of a guy on the court waiting for corner 3’s - and missing a lot of them.

Both of them came around late and started showing some all around games that they displayed during summer league.

I attribute part of their late success as the defenders/opposing cosches not being prepared for them. But being fair, both Quickley/Obi had their full complement of moves/counters on display

I expect Quickley to play more summer league to get more PG reps. Particularly after the emergence of RJ (he averaged close to 4apg after the new year) as a more complete player and Randle being the Point forward he is, a dominant PG isn’t really super critical.

There’s still some mystery over what happens with Obi/Randle. It’s not an ideal fit - but on offense they’re quite complementary - Obi brings a lot of speed and energy on offense, is more versatile than Mitch, and simply brings more to the table.

Has something like this ever worked out before? Hmm. Maybe the Pistons with Prince/Rasheed/Ben Wallace working out some magic with 3 tweeners. The Knicks had Lee and ZBo, but I’d hardly call that a success.

Maybe Thibs needs to have a chat with Steve Kerr about Draymond Green playing center and casting Randle in that role. He has the muscle to do anything Green can. And besides, there are like maybe 4-5 center types in the league you really need to worry about defensively - and they’re all MVP candidates that you can’t really stop anyway. (That’s when we throw in Mitch/Noel/Taj)

You do run into issues of making sure there’s enough ball to go around. I can’t imagine a Knicks team where Obi/Randle/RJ/Quickley all average 17+ppg being successful. That’s sort of where a CP3 type PG would come in and not worry about getting points night and setting the tone.

I think if you look at it as a unit
Quickley
RJ
DEFENSIVE STOPPER
Obi
Randle

the needs become obvious

I know Thibs doesn't want to run but I think the roster really does cry for a type of philosophy. I actually think that we'd be good as a running team because the other side would be so freaking gassed. Every know and again pairing Houston and Spreewell in the same lineup works

The Knicks head coach shook up all the players in the Knicks 10-Man rotation the day he booted the starter PG Kemba out of the rotation, reducing the Knicks game rotation to 9 players, increasing Randle's minutes to 40, and increasing Barretts minutes to 40, and decreasing Obi Toppin minutes to 8, and Quickley's minutes to 16 to 18.

Quickley and Obi Toppin performance as a rookie earned them 20 or more minutes of playing-time in the Knicks 2021-22 season, being able to play the 6 sec or less plan on offense well, plus score on every fast break basket.
D.Rose & Taj Gibson did a great job at mentoring Quickley & Toppin's tandem performance as a rookie.

Knixkik wrote:We know they play well together and took advantage of an opportunity late in the year more than anyone could ever realistically expect. The question is how much of it is real, and how much is just a perfect storm of the circumstances of playing a lot against teams that weren’t playing as hard as they would earlier in the season? Is the Toppin shooting for real? Is the quickley playmaking for real? Does their confidence carry over to games that matter more? I don’t believe this is a Mardy Collins situation but we see this all the time and I want to know how confident everyone is in these guys being at the level they showed recently.

Question: If Obi had somehow won Most Improved Player, All NBA, aled the Knicks to the playoffs, and signed a reasonable extension, would you wait for the extension to kick in before demanding a trade?

This is kind if ridiculous. Obi and Quick played well in Summer League and they played well in a roughly similar situation at the end of the season. Thibodeau has done a great job developing them and they both still have two seasons left on their rookie deals before the Knicks have to make another commitment. It's a sign of organizational success that the young players are developing; not failure.

jskinny35 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:Obi's shooting is real. He has great strength and the motion on his 3pter is fluid. Is he ever going to be a lethal shooter like a Steve Novak? Probably not. But if he develops an ability to control his dribble, watch out because if you fly out you could be letting a team mate get posterized

he played two years of college ball and most of that came in his 2nd season. He shot 43-103 (.417) from 3 at college. He hasnt shown anything like that in the NBA until post all star break where he's shooting .408 (18 games, 31-76 from 3)

Lets be honest... his shot isnt pretty. Seems like he just kinda flings it and we have seen some really bad Antoine Walker caliber misses. That being said his ability to get hot is undeniable. He showed it in college and with more minutes and comfort he's letting it fly in the 2nd half with great accuracy.

That could be the real x-factor here. What if Obi becomes a 40% shooter from downtown?

Dude... think about that. You end up with Randle playing a lot of center where he gets the post and Obi gets to release every time Jules gets a defensive board.

Thibs loves Obi. He loves IQ.

It comes down to the exit interviews. If Jules is positive about making sacrifices in his role (like playing more small ball center) then this could work. If Obi/Jules can play together you keep Mitch and you have 3 bigs who can really do great things and you can play any combo of 2 of them together.

I am in no way stuck on keeping Randle, I just hate selling low and I think he's better than he played this year. I also think the "bad teammate" is a narrative spun by fans tired of watching his BS (understandable). Obi has already said he's talking with Randle about how they can play together...

The best scenario for Knick fans is a rehabbed and happier Randle next year. If you get anything close to it and this kind of growth from RJ/Obi/IQ and guys like Sims/Reddish/McBride chomping to get in, Rose coming back, hopefully Mitch also, it could be a real bounce back year

A couple of things....Obi and Randle can fantasize about playing together all they want, but they play for a coach who stresses 48 minutes of rim protection which neither provide. In the end, there is a chance that Obi can be slotted between 12-18 mins a night for the 3rd year in a row. If this happens, that will be asinine! There is also a chance we enter the summer of 2023 with the same un-answered questions about Obi that we had last summer and this one. That just can't happen!

Earlier you mentioned that moving-on from Randle is an emotional one and not tactical. Totally disagree with that statement. Tactically, its difficult to win consistently in the league when your highest usage/number one option is an inefficient high volume shooter. To add to that, RJ, our number 2 option and second highest usage player, is also a high volume shooter who struggles with efficiency. On top of being inefficient, Randle is also a ball-stopper, and his style of play can make him an awkward fit in certain styles of play or with certain players. Obi, for the most part is a plug and play type player that can fit most styles and along-side most players because he is a efficient, low usage, a ball mover that is a better fit with the current core of young players that we have. With Obi in the starting lineup, our team assists jump from 21 to 25 per. Ciaches are always searching for ways to steal points or get easy buckets before the defense can set up. Its one of the reasons some coaches press or trap to create steals, or push the tempo and run secondary fastbreaks. On a team that can struggle to find offense at times, Obi's ability to sprint ahead of the defense for easy buckets is a coaches dream.

This is well stated and correct. Can't imagine the FO ignoring this, along with lineup stats/metrics to conclude this is 2022 and we can't have anyone playing 2014 pace basketball. Obi will likely never compare to Randle individually, but he's a guy that helps the team play, chemistry, pace, ball movement, etc. Randle is almost the exact opposite of this. While a huge RJ fan - his inefficiency will need to change or he will merely slot into Randle's old role.

Agreed, and I don't think I want them on the court together either! *I* want some rim protection!

BRIGGS wrote:Julius Randle alienated fans and at times looked like a very poor teammate( also noticed by favs)

Knicks use obi last 5 games abs he puts up insane numbers looking good doing it playing team ball

How do u sell the fans back into Randle? It’s a no win situation now for Randle abs the Knicks. The fate has already been set. Knicks fans will live and die with obi now and Randle is either traded or moved to sixth man type. Sounds crazy coming off two years ago but no one can think otherwise? Obi s the guy

which fans are you talking about?

I don't think it's permanent with the fans. But if he comes back next year and struggles like he did this year, and doesn't fit in to the team flow, then of course the FO better fix things - and that is to either trade Randle or find a coach that can get through to him (if one exists.)