martin wrote:

Chandler wrote:I agree with certain points Triple makes

But I also think it was imperative that the team prioritize winning and forming a real identity (not just talk). Thibs is about defense, selflessness, passing. Players got better under Thibs (they also got burned out too, but they were better players).

It's a real puzzle why this year's team is playing so poorly -- especially at home.

and to be fair, if we were winning there would be a lot less whining about whether young guys are getting enough action. a lot of us would be saying it's part of the process, guys need to earn minutes, there day will come etc. Because we're losing so much, second guessing everything is in full force.

There are a lot of good coaches on that list -- bona fide chops.

Zero PG play. Zero breakdown ability. Ups and downs of Mitch/Noel.

After that the Knicks are easy to gameplan against IMHO. Force the ball into Randle's hands, which is the oddest sounding strategy but it's almost full proof. He is an easy double team. Play tough enough defense against the rest.

all good points but last year's pg play stunk too. I really thought EF and Kemba would give sufficient shooting to benefit from doubling JR. And then Grimes comes in shooting so well too.

Uptown wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

fishmike wrote:Thibs your turn to die

Our best player is Julius Randle... lets fire the coach. He's not putting guys in the right rolls, making the right subs or calling the right plays.

You can't fire him. That just screams dysfunction. Most of the fault is on the front office for failing to improve the team this off-season

Too late; the dysfunction "slip" is already showing. From Randle battling with the fans, the refs, himself, the media, and quitting in a few games, to multiple blown 20 pt leads over the last few weeks, the many voices in the front office, RJ getting injured....etc. With that said, you don't hold back from making a move because of conceived perception in the media. You make a move for the betterment of your team, regardless. If the front office thinks firing Thibs or not firing Thibs will help this team today and moving forward then you do it.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/TommyBeer/status/1494375710793871366

Clean wrote:

Uptown wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

fishmike wrote:Thibs your turn to die

Our best player is Julius Randle... lets fire the coach. He's not putting guys in the right rolls, making the right subs or calling the right plays.

You can't fire him. That just screams dysfunction. Most of the fault is on the front office for failing to improve the team this off-season

Too late; the dysfunction "slip" is already showing. From Randle battling with the fans, the refs, himself, the media, and quitting in a few games, to multiple blown 20 pt leads over the last few weeks, the many voices in the front office, RJ getting injured....etc. With that said, you don't hold back from making a move because of conceived perception in the media. You make a move for the betterment of your team, regardless. If the front office thinks firing Thibs or not firing Thibs will help this team today and moving forward then you do it.

Yea, why would you change what you think is best fore the team because of what others think? Only way you will change it is with wins and you win by doing what is best for your team. The wins might not come this year but if you do it right like the Cavs the wins will come. Staying in this place were we are too good for good draft picks and too bad to make a plays in does us no good. We will be here forever. Actually we have been here forever. It is why we have the most losses in the last 2 decades and only picked top 3 once.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/TommyBeer/status/1494375710793871366

Speaking of dysfunction, we were actually trying to win while losing the most games in the NBA over 2 decades. That's why I don't buy the idea that you can't rebuild in NY. We have been an absolute **** show, and we are still selling out games, etc. Had were torn this down years ago, and tried to build it back up with a competent front office, we would be in a much better place today, and I guarantee we wouldn't have the 2nd most losses over the last two decades. As long as the front office lays out the plan, sticks to the plan and communicates the plan with the fan base (they don't need to give us every intricate detail), I think we can get behind it.

BTW, good call on Cleveland...Was talking to a couple of friends through social media about how the Cavs tore it down and ran passed us already....About to give the Woj pod a listen. Thanks for posting...

Uptown wrote:Thibs was brought here to establish a culture, an identity, and accountability. I think we can all agree that he has failed in all 3 areas this year. We lack an identity. We are not a very good defensive team and we get outworked by most of our opponents. The accountability this year has been a joke, especially when it comes to Randle. There were reports that some of the players are not happy with the way Thibs has handled certain players.

The culture from the court to the office reeks of dysfunction. It’s clear as day that there is a disconnect between the two which we were told wouldn’t be the case considering the previous relationship between the coach and front office. Despite Thibs track record, in my opinion, it was a mistake to hire a win-now coach for a roster that wasn’t ready to win now. Speaking of win-now, the front office seems caught between trying to compete/win now and rebuild at the same time. That is a difficult task to achieve. To make matters worse, not only does it appear to be a disconnect between the coach and front office, but it might also be a differing of philosophies within the front office. It already seems as though we have too many voices in the front office, and yet, we add another voice a couple of weeks ago in Rosas.

But back to Thibs…a coach like Thibs ain’t supposed to blow 20 plus point leads at home to teams that are missing their best players and are rebuilding. Thibs teams are not supposed to have losing records to Orlando and OKC. Thibs teams ain't supposed to get outworked and out-hustled. A detail-oriented coach like Thibs ain't supposed to have teams that look unprepared. Not saying he needs to be fired yesterday, but the circus-like atmosphere that we thought left the building last year, is back in town.

If we could only go back in time we would have hired Kenny Atkinson and let him groom the youths for two years. Then when Kenny got fired - we could have hired Thibs to take over after the developing part was mostly done.

Chandler wrote:

martin wrote:

Chandler wrote:I agree with certain points Triple makes

But I also think it was imperative that the team prioritize winning and forming a real identity (not just talk). Thibs is about defense, selflessness, passing. Players got better under Thibs (they also got burned out too, but they were better players).

It's a real puzzle why this year's team is playing so poorly -- especially at home.

and to be fair, if we were winning there would be a lot less whining about whether young guys are getting enough action. a lot of us would be saying it's part of the process, guys need to earn minutes, there day will come etc. Because we're losing so much, second guessing everything is in full force.

There are a lot of good coaches on that list -- bona fide chops.

Zero PG play. Zero breakdown ability. Ups and downs of Mitch/Noel.

After that the Knicks are easy to gameplan against IMHO. Force the ball into Randle's hands, which is the oddest sounding strategy but it's almost full proof. He is an easy double team. Play tough enough defense against the rest.

all good points but last year's pg play stunk too. I really thought EF and Kemba would give sufficient shooting to benefit from doubling JR. And then Grimes comes in shooting so well too.

Randle was off the charts last year. Elf was garbage. The idea that nba players can’t play well without a pg is nonsense. Is the reason Michael Jordan won 6 rings Steve Kerr and BJ Armstrong?

jskinny35 wrote:
If we could only go back in time we would have hired Kenny Atkinson and let him groom the youths for two years. Then when Kenny got fired - we could have hired Thibs to take over after the developing part was mostly done.

Yes, we have been a couple of years early in trying to become relevant in the league again. We should have tanked last year and aimed to get a high pick in a stacked draft, while keeping our cap flexible and developing the youth. Kenny fit that objective better, I was surprised the Knicks did not pick him. But something about him scares off other teams too, I wonder why he has not gotten a chance at a head coaching gig despite his success with Brooklyn.

But you cannot turn back time. As much as I think that we have chosen the thornier path, going back and starting over again would be even worse.

Panos wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:

If we could only go back in time we would have hired Kenny Atkinson and let him groom the youths for two years. Then when Kenny got fired - we could have hired Thibs to take over after the developing part was mostly done.

Yes, we have been a couple of years early in trying to become relevant in the league again. We should have tanked last year and aimed to get a high pick in a stacked draft, while keeping our cap flexible and developing the youth. Kenny fit that objective better, I was surprised the Knicks did not pick him. But something about him scares off other teams too, I wonder why he has not gotten a chance at a head coaching gig despite his success with Brooklyn.

But you cannot turn back time. As much as I think that we have chosen the thornier path, going back and starting over again would be even worse.

Is it not possible to add Atkinson to the coaching staff?

Anything is possible. He has a job with warriors. I’d say unless you promote him to Head Coach he under contract.

Is it really Bryant and Payne not doing well with this team? It the problem Thibs? One year COY, next we move him out?

Larry Brown, HOF wins a title, then trip to finals two years preceding his one year here. It was a disaster but he took the money and Isiah hired the wrong guy for that team. Bad fit. As was MDA.

fishmike wrote:Thibs your turn to die

Our best player is Julius Randle... lets fire the coach. He's not putting guys in the right rolls, making the right subs or calling the right plays.

Clean wrote:Someone on another forum found this article on Thibs from his time on the Wolves. Since he never changes this still applies to today. Even to his teams playing really bad in the 4th because the starters are tired while the opponents actually got rest.

https://deadspin.com/tom-thibodeau-is-destruction-1821265024/amp

“But Thibodeau, now the head coach and team president of the Minnesota Timberwolves, has another trick up his sleeve, one he developed during his time with the Bulls. It isn’t really an X’s-and-O’s thing; in fact, the Timberwolves don’t really do anything innovative or even particularly sharp, basketball-wise. It’s just: When the other team takes its starters out of the game to get some rest... Thibodeau, uh, doesn’t.”

"For all that, Thibodeau’s over-reliance on his starters isn’t even good basketball. The talent-overloaded Timberwolves have performed terribly in fourth quarters this season, when their best players are tired and their opponents’ aren’t. They scored a mere 39 points in the second half of the second game of that back-to-back on Dec. 3 and 4, and lost to a cratering Grizzlies team that had just fired its coach."

"According to the NBA’s stats site, Minnesota’s starting five—Jeff Teague, Jimmy Butler, Andrew Wiggins, Taj Gibson, Karl-Anthony Towns—is the NBA’s most used five-man lineup, by miles. Through 28 games, that lineup has logged 167 more minutes—nearly three and a half more games—than any other lineup. And that’s only when they’re all five playing together: At a point in the season when other teams are using deep rotations and all-bench second units to develop their reserves and prevent wear and tear on their starters, the Timberwolves virtually never go any significant stretch of time without at least one starter on the floor."

"As you might expect, treating his players like they are not human beings has tended not to work out super duper well for those players. Luol Deng and Joakim Noah, two of the most important players on Thibodeau’s Bulls teams, aged like bananas under his care; both eroded from All-Stars to shambling old zombies by the time they turned 30."

We need to cut bait before he does major damage to our team and our young players.

Interesting take. Is this true on knicks? I know RJ and Randle get big minutes but so do many others.
That article chronicled 28 games on the wolves like how many years ago? I get it, Thibs plays his main guys but how was it last year vs. this?
How has Butlers minutes changed in the years he left Minny? Has injuries and being over 30 mattered? Noah was not known to take care of his body. Does that factor? What about Deng?
Its a good blanket statement but there are Variables to consider. Many of them.

Thibs plays his guys that are doing well and stays with it. Is that different than his previous stints?