martin wrote:We been tanking quite nicely for weeks man, it's working!

Have we? I think you have to play the young guys to find out if they can be worth keeping? That is more than losing, what ‘tanking’ should be for an organization. Because I agree:

losmeister wrote:losing on purpose is for ****ing losers

Now the scary thing might be they already tried guys and have given up on them, in someone’s mind, be that Leon or Thibs or whomever.

Simmons and Embiid…
They just took Okafur over Booker and Fultz over Tatum, Fox, Lonzo, etc and didn’t resign Jimmy Butler.

Tanking is fine if you have people that can draft. We’ve just been really bad at it for a very long time. Just bad enough never to get an impact player.

Vmart wrote:

MS wrote:I would say the process actually worked perfectly in Philly till the NBA stepped in.

Simmons and Embiid…
They just took Okafur over Booker and Fultz over Tatum, Fox, Lonzo, etc and didn’t resign Jimmy Butler.

Tanking is fine if you have people that can draft. We’ve just been really bad at it for a very long time. Just bad enough never to get an impact player.

Impact players are everywhere. They just don’t know how to develop anyone they draft. This is the only team that can draft a player who has Star potential and make them into role players for other teams.

I think folks probably have different definitions of an impact player.

I suspect you might list players that I wouldn’t consider impact players.

Last players we drafted that have made it to an all star game (probably a good definition of an impact player) are KP and David Lee.

What other players have we drafted that you think could have been all stars?

SkyWalker wrote:

Clean wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:I’m not sure the Knicks ever tanked in their history( which might be worse)
We play to win— we just happen not to be successful at it!

Tommy had an interesting factoid about this.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/TommyBeer/status/1494375710793871366

That's really insane. How can you have the most losses over a 20 year period and NEVER have a top 2 pick in the draft!!! That's unheard of. They should have a rule change for that to allow a team that has been so awful over a period of time that has never had a top 2 pick then be guaranteed to have a top 2 pick one year.

I've said many times, I don't think the draft pick should be determined by only one year's record. That's how bull**** things happen like SA drafting Robinson, and GS coming off a run of 3 championships in 5 years in the finals and getting the second pick in the draft. I think it should be a three year average. Now THAT will prevent tanking. A few games at the end of the year are not going to much affect your 3 year average.

smackeddog wrote:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://www.twitter.com/Dattfranco/status/1494774219871297536

Rose is coming back soon so we can say goodbye to the tanking. The push for the play-in is going to be on. We will move back like 5 spots in the draft, you can pretty much count on that

SkyWalker wrote:

Clean wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:I’m not sure the Knicks ever tanked in their history( which might be worse)
We play to win— we just happen not to be successful at it!

Tommy had an interesting factoid about this.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/TommyBeer/status/1494375710793871366

That's really insane. How can you have the most losses over a 20 year period and NEVER have a top 2 pick in the draft!!! That's unheard of. They should have a rule change for that to allow a team that has been so awful over a period of time that has never had a top 2 pick then be guaranteed to have a top 2 pick one year.

Didn't we essentially get the number two pick the year we'd traded it unprotected to the Bulls? Ridiculous 'luck'!

Why would stern/silver “hate”the knicks? This what we do, if we don’t understand the math, we tilt to “its a conspiracy” then?

ESOMKnicks wrote:The lottery is not rigged, the Knicks have just been plain stupid. People gotta get their tin foil hats off.

That’s so cute

nyvector16 wrote:
I think my concern is we win meaningless games when Derrick Rose gets back and miss out on maximizing our opportunity to add a top talent in the draft.

That boat sailed and went when the team went out and signed a bunch of "more than fringe" veterans to free agent contracts.

https://dailyknicks.com/2020/11/20/knicks-free-agency-live-updates-news-rumors/

SIGNING: Knicks sign Austin Rivers

New York is adding Austin Rivers to the roster on a three-year deal worth $10 million, per ESPN. A solid addition on its own, but even better after learning from Ian Begley of SNY that the final two years are non-guaranteed, giving the Knicks added cap flexibility.

SIGNING: Knicks sign Nerlens Noel

The Knicks added Nerlens Noel on a one-year, $5 million deal, per ESPN...

SIGNING: Knicks bring back Elfrid Payton

Well, not exactly the veteran point guard Knicks fans were hoping for, but Elfrid Payton will return to the Knicks on a one-year, $5 million deal, as first reported by ESPN.

SIGNING: Knicks sign Alec Burks

The New York Knicks are finally on the board. They have signed 29-year-old wing Alec Burks to a one-year, $6 million deal, as first reported by ESPN.

"Captain Beyblade" Randle: Four years, $117.09 million... Includes $15,966,720 in incentives, a fourth-year player option, and a 15% trade kicker. Starts in 2022/23....

Evan Fournier: Four years, $73MM. ...
Derrick Rose: Three years, $43.56MM. ...
Alec Burks: Three years, $30.04MM. ...
Nerlens Noel: Three years, $27.72MM. ...
Kemba Walker: Two years, $17.89MM. ...
Taj Gibson: Two years, $10.07MM. ...

The difference between Leon Rose's first offseason and his 2nd are pretty dramatic. They also had RJ Barrett and Quickley still on their rookie deals who were key in helping the team last year. Quickley's rookie slotting is a pittance for his level of production. Taj Gibson was on a veteran's minimum level contract. Derrick Rose was not making the money last year than he is making with his extension. The team was not weighted down by the threat of a long term Randle contract that looked like it would blow up in the team's faces ( it does now)

If you want to "tank" then you want to "organically tank", which means you trade off all the inexpensive but hopefully useful veterans on short contracts or one year deals who might edge you towards more wins. The the roster has NOTHING LEFT but rookies and developmental types and that's all the coach has left to put on the floor. There is no more conflict that way. The coach can't argue about wanting to play his veterans if there are no veterans on the roster. The front office isn't in conflict about demanding a coach eat up losses by playing a roster less likely to win, which helps the entire team long term but not the coach in the short term ( i.e. he'll eventually get fired and those losses will still be held against them)

I said last offseason that the Knicks should trade for one huge big bad contract that another team wants off of their roster so badly they'll give picks and maybe a few young players to do it. Then sign fringe guys again in FA. To hopefully churn in trade deadline deals. ( Expecting to get first round picks like for Morris is not realistic to happen consistently, but the Ed Davis type trades applied to the deadline, where the team got some 2nds, that's not so bad)

If the Knicks had done that, Toppin and McBride and Grimes and Sims and Quickley would all be getting some extended burn. And if Reddish walked into the team as such, so would he as well.

While I wish Thibs was more flexible, because this is clear a dick measuring contest at this point with Leon Rose, I can't blame him for trying to win as many games as he can. That's his job. It's not his job to be complicit in a tanking. Some coaches do that, but it will tend to always work against them long term. While there might be a few outlier situations with that, it doesn't negate the rule in general.

Leon Rose put himself and the franchise into this position. He signed a bunch of guys to deal that can't be moved and are road blocking younger players who need developmental type minutes on the court. And he's making an "organic" tank job to be impossible.

Team would have been better of hiring a Rich Cho or a Troy Weaver type to be the true decision maker for the personnel side of the franchise. But they aren't "brand names" and Dolan apparently loves brand names more than he loves common sense.