Vmart wrote:It seems to me Payton and Randle are a package deal. Randle plays poorly without Payton and Payton is awful with out randle.

It's not about Elf. It's about most PF needing a strong PG and unfortunately Kemba Walker is atrocious and Rose is hurt.

Give us an elite PG and watch Julius Randle return to All-Star form I was so disappointed when we missed out on Ball.

Knixkik wrote:I get the body language and effort issues. We had the same qualms about Melo. But in the midst of last season’s success, we all sort of forgot about what Randle does best. He was never supposed to be viewed as a perimeter oriented big man like he thrived in last year. He is ultimately a bully ball big who’s added outside shooting and playmaking provides more versatility for him on offense. Bottom line is, this starting lineup is poorly assembled for Randle (and Barrett) to be at their best.

Knicks badly need to fix the center and PG positions to get the best out of both of them. Knicks need an outside shooting threat at center that can still anchor a defense. Randle should be making plays more in the post, but he can’t because mitch and Noels defender is always hedging, and willing to give up the occasional offensive rebound or putback to prevent Randle from attacking the basket. Same goes for Barrett, who gets his shot blocked more often than not due to a big man always hanging out in the lane. If we land Myles Turner or Mo Bamba, suddenly a defending center has a tough decision to make. Hang out in the lane and give up an open three, or allow Randle the space to go one on one.

As for the PG position, sure Kemba gives more spacing than most. But what good is that when teams no longer respect his ability to drive to the basket, and he’s not particularly comfortable as a catch and shoot player. Knicks need a PG who can get into the teeth of the defense but also provide just enough of an outside shooting threat. Brunson, Schroder and Dinwiddie are probably the closest to fits there that are realistic. Drose definitely is when healthy. But we simply can’t rely on that, or the Knicks other options to fill that gap when he’s out. At shooting guard we are fine with Fournier or Grimes sharing the floor in a Randle/ Barrett, as they are high efficiency catch and shoot players

So really what this comes down to is putting our best players in the best possible position to succeed. Randle in particular is really forced into playing a role he simply isn’t at his best other than some sort stretches or the ideal environmental circumstances last last year. Get a real stretch 5 and a real PG who can take on some playmaking duties and see what Randle can really do.

Jmpasq wrote:

Knixkik wrote:I get the body language and effort issues. We had the same qualms about Melo. But in the midst of last season’s success, we all sort of forgot about what Randle does best. He was never supposed to be viewed as a perimeter oriented big man like he thrived in last year. He is ultimately a bully ball big who’s added outside shooting and playmaking provides more versatility for him on offense. Bottom line is, this starting lineup is poorly assembled for Randle (and Barrett) to be at their best.

Knicks badly need to fix the center and PG positions to get the best out of both of them. Knicks need an outside shooting threat at center that can still anchor a defense. Randle should be making plays more in the post, but he can’t because mitch and Noels defender is always hedging, and willing to give up the occasional offensive rebound or putback to prevent Randle from attacking the basket. Same goes for Barrett, who gets his shot blocked more often than not due to a big man always hanging out in the lane. If we land Myles Turner or Mo Bamba, suddenly a defending center has a tough decision to make. Hang out in the lane and give up an open three, or allow Randle the space to go one on one.

As for the PG position, sure Kemba gives more spacing than most. But what good is that when teams no longer respect his ability to drive to the basket, and he’s not particularly comfortable as a catch and shoot player. Knicks need a PG who can get into the teeth of the defense but also provide just enough of an outside shooting threat. Brunson, Schroder and Dinwiddie are probably the closest to fits there that are realistic. Drose definitely is when healthy. But we simply can’t rely on that, or the Knicks other options to fill that gap when he’s out. At shooting guard we are fine with Fournier or Grimes sharing the floor in a Randle/ Barrett, as they are high efficiency catch and shoot players

So really what this comes down to is putting our best players in the best possible position to succeed. Randle in particular is really forced into playing a role he simply isn’t at his best other than some sort stretches or the ideal environmental circumstances last last year. Get a real stretch 5 and a real PG who can take on some playmaking duties and see what Randle can really do.

I agree, thats why Turner is such an intriguing trade option. The problem is he can't stay healthy

Or rebound!

Not saying Randle is an Embiid-level talent, but the Sixers had to wait 4 years for Doc to show up and get this kid to use his size and strength to consistently get to the basket. Which now has Embiid in the MVP conversation this season. If it wasn't for the comic relief of Bent Simmons, I would hate the Sixers more than I hate Flopper LeQ.

It's funny, almost everyone on this board will pee blood for developing yoots, most of whom haven't achieved sheehit in the league, but we got an almost 2020-2021 MVP candidate signed on for way less than max money and now some decreased performance (which everyone and Randle's Mom knew was forthcoming after last season) and a newly increased bad attitude has everyone going all Melo trade rape every minute of every day. I'm now waiting patiently for the "Randle forced his way here" thread to pop up.

I humbly recognize that we've all got to post something or martin's broken heart will suffer even more, but it's sure getting tiresome.

wargames wrote:

Allanfan20 wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

Uptown wrote:Not really interested in re-setting the roster or moving the chairs around for a 3rd time to accommodate Randle. He was the face of a team that was 21-45. Randle was so bad, he wrote an apology to the fans. We moved a few pieces, acquired new ones as well as a added a new coach next year. We played well last year, give him credit for helping us reach the 4th seed, but we played more like an 8th seed in the playoffs as the Randle from the year before showed up in the 1st round. We moved some more pieces, brought in some new ones and we currently stand at 24-27, outside of the play-in.

Almost 2 out of the 3 years he has been here, he has been inefficient, low energy, and bad body language. His actions brought circus like tendencies back to MSG. The franchise is extending more energy coddling him, covering for him (the second apology), than the energy he is extending on the court. I hear people saying he should be a 2nd or 3rd option but he hasn't shown a consistent willingness to want to do it. In fact, he struggles off the ball. I don't think he is worth the trouble....I'm not saying move him for scraps, I want a fair deal, but I'm on board for moving him off of this roster...

I'm starting to feel the same way. I don't even know how to begin building around him. He needs ball handling betas that will allow him to run the offense? The playoffs showed that's not good enough. What happens if the Knicks somehow get Brunson? Is he going to have the same issues with usage that he has with Kemba? I don't want to hear about last year. Right now Julius is playing like a sixth man and that's not good enough.

To this day, I never understood why NBA coaches began allowing him to bring the ball up the court. He seems so entitled because of it. It actually bothers me a little.

Has he ever played with a good PG?

LOL! He played with Elf in NOLA?

I hope this contract ages well. No issues with Randle at 18M per but this will turn into an overpay and his attitude already sucks. Last years production looks like a mirage. Next season the media and fans are going to be on his ass from game 1.

Rookie wrote:117,000,000 divided by 4 years = 29,250,000 average per year

I hope this contract ages well. No issues with Randle at 18M per but this will turn into an overpay and his attitude already sucks. Last years production looks like a mirage. Next season the media and fans are going to be on his ass from game 1.

I mentioned this in other threads/posts. $29M+ is about right even at current production. It's in the mid-40s NBA Salary player ranking range and will likely drop lower (perhaps 50s or lower) in the future. He definitely has the physical skillset. I don't buy the "bad attitude" story. To me it is more about his controlling his emotions and focus.

jskinny35 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

jrodmc wrote:Yeah, give up on Randle! Thanks to the OP for this thread, by the way. A ray of sunshine in the gathering gloom.

Not saying Randle is an Embiid-level talent, but the Sixers had to wait 4 years for Doc to show up and get this kid to use his size and strength to consistently get to the basket. Which now has Embiid in the MVP conversation this season. If it wasn't for the comic relief of Bent Simmons, I would hate the Sixers more than I hate Flopper LeQ.

It's funny, almost everyone on this board will pee blood for developing yoots, most of whom haven't achieved sheehit in the league, but we got an almost 2020-2021 MVP candidate signed on for way less than max money and now some decreased performance (which everyone and Randle's Mom knew was forthcoming after last season) and a newly increased bad attitude has everyone going all Melo trade rape every minute of every day. I'm now waiting patiently for the "Randle forced his way here" thread to pop up.

I humbly recognize that we've all got to post something or martin's broken heart will suffer even more, but it's sure getting tiresome.

Yeah the youth obsession is real. Toppin is the new Frank around here. He hasn’t shown the ability to shoot, rebound, defend, score in the post, exploit mismatches, or score in the midrange, yet everyone wants to move Randle to give him the keys. Randle struggles mainly because the paint is clogged so he can’t attack without meeting a double team, and we have no PG (with drose hurt) that can break down a defense and force the defense to react and shift. Randle shooting lights out was the savior, but clearly he’s not able to replicate that. Doesn’t mean it’s all his fault.

Toppin isn't meant to compare to Randle statistically as it's a no contest at this time... but one player is constantly moving, promotes ball movement, has a much higher PER and stays in team huddles even after he is pulled after 1 blooper/5 minutes. The other is slightly overpaid, slow as molasses, moody/hypersensitive and has an entire offense built around him. Yet his defenders/lovers are still making posts about how "if we only had a stretch 5, if only the SG and SF could shoot better so he we would have more space to operate, if we only had a PG that was like Elf Payton but could shoot, etc"

Yes indeedy. Randle's been overpaid, moody and slow as molasses for 1/2 a season so far. But statistically he's better than Obi. Not that that matters, apparently.

And who else right now on this team should have the offense built around them? Seriously just asking. RJ's shooting has regressed this season as well, but nobody's giving up on RJ. Oh that's right, RJ's not slightly overpaid, slow, and moody. Good thing Randle's not wearing hats during post games.

foosballnick wrote:

jrodmc wrote:Yeah, give up on Randle! Thanks to the OP for this thread, by the way. A ray of sunshine in the gathering gloom.

Not saying Randle is an Embiid-level talent, but the Sixers had to wait 4 years for Doc to show up and get this kid to use his size and strength to consistently get to the basket. Which now has Embiid in the MVP conversation this season. If it wasn't for the comic relief of Bent Simmons, I would hate the Sixers more than I hate Flopper LeQ.

It's funny, almost everyone on this board will pee blood for developing yoots, most of whom haven't achieved sheehit in the league, but we got an almost 2020-2021 MVP candidate signed on for way less than max money and now some decreased performance (which everyone and Randle's Mom knew was forthcoming after last season) and a newly increased bad attitude has everyone going all Melo trade rape every minute of every day. I'm now waiting patiently for the "Randle forced his way here" thread to pop up.

I humbly recognize that we've all got to post something or martin's broken heart will suffer even more, but it's sure getting tiresome.

I don't mind keeping Randle and agree that his salary (currently ranked 47th in the NBA) will probably end up as in range or better when you factor in other players future contract escalation/inflation. I'm also not into all that "bad egg" hubris. Conversely, I wouldn't be upset if the Knicks moved him for a real / healthy / fairly young PG. But I'm not sure how you get better as a team without either A) drafting & developing yoots or B) trading to upgrade the talent level. I think its fair to say that the Knicks are somewhere between a 7-12 positioned team in the East Final Standings this year. Question is, if you keep the exact same roster with the exact same rotations for the remainder of the year (accounting for adding Rose back to the mix in March) - where does that leave you next year in terms of current roster improvement? When Rose comes back should Grimes get significantly less minutes because guys like Burks & EF are more proven vets? If the team keeps pace to stay in the 11-12 spot do you keep rolling Taj out there instead of seeing some of Sims? Do you keep rolling limited D Kemba out there even through rough shooting nights and not look at Deuce at all? Is Cam pretty much Knox 2.0 with zero playing time? I can respect Thibs doing everything in his power to find the mix of players to win every night. But there's also the long term to consider if this year continues with current trending.

Which brings me to my main issue with Randle - his usage. If you examine the game logs - on most nights he is getting 37-38+ minutes (in games where there is no extended garbage time) regardless of performance level. Essentially this means he is the only player on the team who is not subject to playing time adjustment - even RJ takes a seat for up to 10 minutes of reduced time in games he is "off". So the question becomes is Randle good enough to warrant the superstar treatment he is getting from he staff in terms of usage......or......would you as a fan rather see 5-10 more minutes of Obi on the floor during Randle's rough nights?
For me its the latter - but I'm looking at this from a selfish entertainment standpoint since IMO in games where shot selection and shooting percentage are off and TOs are higher with D effort lower......ISO ball is just not enjoyable.

It wasn't that long ago on this board that Obi was the sideways-immobile orange traffic cone/ski rack/runs like Shaggy from Scooby-Doo.

His extension with incentives avg 29mil as said. Thats the cap hit.
Look at his base.
Look at the incetives.
if he makes it he is worth it. If not, incentives drop it down.
Its a fan prerogative to exptroplate the present into the future. Seems more commeon place actually.

His contract: https://www.spotrac.com/nba/new-york-knicks/julius-randle-15359/ Its really not hard to understand.

One can hate him if we are building around him. Tolerate if building WITH him. Expectations might define how you look at him.
HE is not a cornerstone. He is a foundational piece. So is RJ, so is OBI. If mitch stays, thats obvvious.
don’t mea they here forever either.

Rookie wrote:Serious question. When the Knicks review game film do they edit Randle out or do they call out his defensive lapses and show his lack of effort and movement on offense? Are they like ‘here’s how to set a good screen’? Or is it all attaboys

Maybe they only show the positive things he does?

I dunno because the film doesn’t lie. And yet, Randle has been consistently disengaged all season. Is he just pissed off that RJ is being allowed to feature more. Gone are the days of Elf and Randle freezing RJ out.

It's the same for EVERY player in the league though I'd guess. They review each and every mistake, especially the really poor or fixable ones.

Getting a player to change is quite another thing or we would have all of these flawless players.