gradyandrew wrote:blkexec- why are you ****ting on Burks for playing out of position? Who's choice and why is he the starting PG? Both of our PGs got injured and that and the general improvement of the East is why our record is worse. Don't blame Burks for stepping up- I'm sure he preferred his roll last season as well.

Ewingsglass- one thing I noticed- Fournier has made 200 3s this season- good for top 8 in the league on a scorching .395%. Only Patty Mills has made more at a higher rate. Fournier has upped his 3pAR from 52%-62%. He's been a better 3 pt marksman than Duncan Robinson. He's been pretty much as advertised.

If the Knicks start a second round rookie PG we might as well just wave the white flag. The team has played better as the season continued. We just need a 6x all NBA PG to play in front of former MVP Derrick Rose and we will have that 4 seed locked up.

I give Fournier a lot of grief, admittedly. His 3 point shooting is very good. His ability to find his shot is good. The pump-sidestep is familiar now. His eFG is relatively high. He takes his shots from the right places. He has good synergy with Randle and maybe Burks, but not really much with Barrett or Robinson. Doesn't really put any pressure on the defense. Doesn't really swing the ball much. If we could sub in a defense for the offense on each play, he'd be good. He is an example of the flaws of 'money stats'.

My issue with him is his defense. At signing, my comment was whether the improvement in offense is worth the decrease in defense. Its still the issue, though it seems clear the answer is "no". Might not be a complete analysis since we haven't had a lot of sample set without Kemba. Let me explain.

If you look at Fournier's Defense Dashboard on NBA.com, https://www.nba.com/stats/player/203095/defense-dash his DFG is 46%. That's not a perfect metric at all. It ignores volume. It ignores eFG. But its a simplification of the problem. Barrett's DFG is 43%. Randle's is 42%. Only Kemba was worse than Fournier in the SL at 48%. Mitch Robinson's is 44%. Now, you also have to keep in mind that Barrett always takes the harder defensive assignment. So, Fournier is getting the easier assignment and doing worse with it. Not perfect, but a simplistic proof that opposing players shoot better when defended by Fournier even though he is taking on the weakest offensive wing on the opposing team.

This is why I say he is the best player on a bad team. His offense 'money' stats will make him look good but he is still a liability on the floor. I think of defense like an umbrella. It only takes one hole to get wet. Limited proof of fact is that these DFGs tend to correlate to the lineup - Boston, Milwaukee, Memphis - their entire starting lineups are well correlated to lower DFGs - much like our entire 2nd unit led by Derrick Rose.

You move him to the 2nd unit. He might thrive and not be such a liability. For reference, Rose has a 37% DFG, McBride has a 37% DFG, Quickley has a 41% DFG. Toppin has a 39% DFG. Across the board that defensive unit has better defended field goal percentage -- might be that opposing 2nd units are just not as good. Might be easier to bury Fournier there - not as much of a liability while giving him the same number (or more) shots on offense.

My point remains that he is the weakest link and I don't think his offensive stats really make up for that weakness. Fournier is the best of a bad situation, but I don't see him as a long term solution unless he improves his defense. He's kind of bringing down Barrett, Randle and Robinson who are each pretty damn good at defense. Have to plug up that hole.

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:blkexec- why are you ****ting on Burks for playing out of position? Who's choice and why is he the starting PG? Both of our PGs got injured and that and the general improvement of the East is why our record is worse. Don't blame Burks for stepping up- I'm sure he preferred his roll last season as well.

Ewingsglass- one thing I noticed- Fournier has made 200 3s this season- good for top 8 in the league on a scorching .395%. Only Patty Mills has made more at a higher rate. Fournier has upped his 3pAR from 52%-62%. He's been a better 3 pt marksman than Duncan Robinson. He's been pretty much as advertised.

If the Knicks start a second round rookie PG we might as well just wave the white flag. The team has played better as the season continued. We just need a 6x all NBA PG to play in front of former MVP Derrick Rose and we will have that 4 seed locked up.

I give Fournier a lot of grief, admittedly. His 3 point shooting is very good. His ability to find his shot is good. The pump-sidestep is familiar now. His eFG is relatively high. He takes his shots from the right places. He has good synergy with Randle and maybe Burks, but not really much with Barrett or Robinson. Doesn't really put any pressure on the defense. Doesn't really swing the ball much. If we could sub in a defense for the offense on each play, he'd be good. He is an example of the flaws of 'money stats'.

My issue with him is his defense. At signing, my comment was whether the improvement in offense is worth the decrease in defense. Its still the issue, though it seems clear the answer is "no". Might not be a complete analysis since we haven't had a lot of sample set without Kemba. Let me explain.

If you look at Fournier's Defense Dashboard on NBA.com, http://nba.com/stats/player/203095 his DFG is 46%. That's not a perfect metric at all. It ignores volume. It ignores eFG. But its a simplification of the problem. Barrett's DFG is 43%. Randle's is 42%. Only Kemba was worse than Fournier in the SL at 48%. Mitch Robinson's is 44%. Now, you also have to keep in mind that Barrett always takes the harder defensive assignment. So, Fournier is getting the easier assignment and doing worse with it. Not perfect, but a simplistic proof that opposing players shoot better when defended by Fournier even though he is taking on the weakest offensive wing on the opposing team.

This is why I say he is the best player on a bad team. His offense 'money' stats will make him look good but he is still a liability on the floor. I think of defense like an umbrella. It only takes one hole to get wet. Limited proof of fact is that these DFGs tend to correlate to the lineup - Boston, Milwaukee, Memphis - their entire starting lineups are well correlated to lower DFGs - much like our entire 2nd unit led by Derrick Rose.

You move him to the 2nd unit. He might thrive and not be such a liability. For reference, Rose has a 37% DFG, McBride has a 37% DFG, Quickley has a 41% DFG. Toppin has a 39% DFG. Across the board that defensive unit has better defended field goal percentage -- might be that opposing 2nd units are just not as good. Might be easier to bury Fournier there - not as much of a liability while giving him the same number (or more) shots on offense.

My point remains that he is the weakest link and I don't think his offensive stats really make up for that weakness. Fournier is the best of a bad situation, but I don't see him as a long term solution unless he improves his defense. He's kind of bringing down Barrett, Randle and Robinson who are each pretty damn good at defense. Have to plug up that hole.

Man, if Fournier isn't coming off the bench some time next year, Knicks in trouble. I think that's his best role ala Tyler Herro

Hate saying it, but Boston giving up a 1st rd draft pick to get get rid of Kemba without the cap hit and giving up a 2nd rounder to get a trade exception instead of Fournier has moved them from a play-in bubble team to top 5 in the league. Meanwhile, we got both virtually for free and have suffered the consequences.