martin wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:I find some fault with Thibs because he hasn't adjusted. I get the love/priority for Randle and RJ (they are 2 best players) but watching Randle (and to a lesser extent RJ) make the same mistakes over and over and not hold them accountable or switch things up - that's on him IMO. Yes there are limited options, but any forum member here could have laid out this type of offense with a limited roster. Thibs's bread and butter is preparation and obtaining defensive effort from his teams. Thibs is also really lacking in offensive creativity and too stubborn. I do admire his loyalty to players (and understand the value) but at some point he needs to step back and not keep riding our best player simply because he's our best player. Our best player has average court vision and struggles when pressured with the ball. So the offense needs to be spread out more so Randle doesn't have such a heavy load. Problem is Randle just stands around when he doesn't have the ball in his hands much of the time. In fairness, most of the Knick starters do that. Only 2nd unit cuts, runs hard and moves the ball well.

I agree with most of what you are saying but I cannot get over the Offensive Creativity statement that I keep hearing repeated.

His best 2 players are RJ and Randle and they are not good passers. Rose has been out. Kemba we all knew his background. IQ is learning.

Mitch is still learning basic basketball fundamentals.

What creativity do you think ANY coach could put into that circumstance from an offensive perspective?

The Knicks run the same types of sets that 75% of the NBA runs.

Yes, part of this is Thibs being labeled for so many years. So now we get an up and close look, and Randle / RJ was(lets start with last year, haven't checked this year, sorry) was top 3 in minutes played? I hear you that most coaches do this, but I don't remember Randle playing that much in NO or in LA before he came to the knicks. Maybe he did and Thigs "run to the ground" label allowed the media to highlight this when he came to the knicks. But I think Rose injury may have placed that label on Thibs, how he played Rose until he blew a tire. I remember MDA had that same label, and guess what? Kobe blew a tire when MDA was the coach. So it may be just a label, but top 3 in minutes? How the hell your minutes are equal or more than lebron? Talking about last year. So this to me confirmed the "run into the ground" label for me. Yes Randle and RJ was the best, for arguement sake. Doesn't mean you put Lebron James load on RJ.

Lack of creativity on offense was another label of Thibs I've heard before he came here. Well, guess what? Now that I get a close look, our offense isn't the most creative. MDA had a more creative offense. Is it the players or system. I clearly remember players like Rose saying, "As long as you play defense, Thibs gives you freedom on offense". So maybe it's not a lack of creativity on offense. Maybe it's a lack of a system period on offense. Again, haven't don't any fact checking on our current system, just listening to former players and watching an offense that looks stagnant.

Or maybe like someone said, we have players that aren't used to passing and cutting. In todays basketball (I'm the old man that still plays), these kids just simply take turns with the ball, while the other 4 players stand and watch. I kind of see that same thing in todays NBA, and this could be a cultural shift and less about Thibs. But Thibs is the coach and he should still be held accountable when players stand around and don't cut. It's gives off a lack of energy and allows the other 4 to just pout and forget to guard their man. Which is why any team we play go on these long runs.

Now I have seen improvement, like the 1st half of yesterdays game. Randle was leading this pass and cut system, and it was working. So I can tell Thibs is doing or changing something. But like every new system, when players stop scoring and jumpshots aren't going in, you abandon the system and go back to what you are accustom to doing. Which in todays culture, it's ISO ball. Maybe we need ISO Trier back. He was my favorite AND 1 type of player. He's a walking bucket. Regardless, thibs most definitely need to take some of this blame on offense. Because come 3rd quarter, and shots not falling, you better believe they going back to ISO ball and turnovers, which leads to blow out loses. Sorry for the rant. But thats todays basketball.

And NEWS FLASH, this team is lacking skilled ISO players, eventhough most fall back to ISO ball (cough...cough...Randle). When he has it going, we accept it. When he doesn't, it leads to a huge lose and ugly basketball and bad defense, because the other 4 are just waiting their turn to do the same as Randle. Meanwhile the other team is running and gunning. Players are leaking out like Obi does on every play. But every team has a bunch of Obi's ready to run at all positions.

blkexec wrote:

martin wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:I find some fault with Thibs because he hasn't adjusted. I get the love/priority for Randle and RJ (they are 2 best players) but watching Randle (and to a lesser extent RJ) make the same mistakes over and over and not hold them accountable or switch things up - that's on him IMO. Yes there are limited options, but any forum member here could have laid out this type of offense with a limited roster. Thibs's bread and butter is preparation and obtaining defensive effort from his teams. Thibs is also really lacking in offensive creativity and too stubborn. I do admire his loyalty to players (and understand the value) but at some point he needs to step back and not keep riding our best player simply because he's our best player. Our best player has average court vision and struggles when pressured with the ball. So the offense needs to be spread out more so Randle doesn't have such a heavy load. Problem is Randle just stands around when he doesn't have the ball in his hands much of the time. In fairness, most of the Knick starters do that. Only 2nd unit cuts, runs hard and moves the ball well.

I agree with most of what you are saying but I cannot get over the Offensive Creativity statement that I keep hearing repeated.

His best 2 players are RJ and Randle and they are not good passers. Rose has been out. Kemba we all knew his background. IQ is learning.

Mitch is still learning basic basketball fundamentals.

What creativity do you think ANY coach could put into that circumstance from an offensive perspective?

The Knicks run the same types of sets that 75% of the NBA runs.

Yes, part of this is Thibs being labeled for so many years. So now we get an up and close look, and Randle / RJ was(lets start with last year, haven't checked this year, sorry) was top 3 in minutes played? I hear you that most coaches do this, but I don't remember Randle playing that much in NO or in LA before he came to the knicks. Maybe he did and Thigs "run to the ground" label allowed the media to highlight this when he came to the knicks. But I think Rose injury may have placed that label on Thibs, how he played Rose until he blew a tire. I remember MDA had that same label, and guess what? Kobe blew a tire when MDA was the coach. So it may be just a label, but top 3 in minutes? How the hell your minutes are equal or more than lebron? Talking about last year. So this to me confirmed the "run into the ground" label for me. Yes Randle and RJ was the best, for arguement sake. Doesn't mean you put Lebron James load on RJ.

Lack of creativity on offense was another label of Thibs I've heard before he came here. Well, guess what? Now that I get a close look, our offense isn't the most creative. MDA had a more creative offense. Is it the players or system. I clearly remember players like Rose saying, "As long as you play defense, Thibs gives you freedom on offense". So maybe it's not a lack of creativity on offense. Maybe it's a lack of a system period on offense. Again, haven't don't any fact checking on our current system, just listening to former players and watching an offense that looks stagnant.

Or maybe like someone said, we have players that aren't used to passing and cutting. In todays basketball (I'm the old man that still plays), these kids just simply take turns with the ball, while the other 4 players stand and watch. I kind of see that same thing in todays NBA, and this could be a cultural shift and less about Thibs. But Thibs is the coach and he should still be held accountable when players stand around and don't cut. It's gives off a lack of energy and allows the other 4 to just pout and forget to guard their man. Which is why any team we play go on these long runs.

Now I have seen improvement, like the 1st half of yesterdays game. Randle was leading this pass and cut system, and it was working. So I can tell Thibs is doing or changing something. But like every new system, when players stop scoring and jumpshots aren't going in, you abandon the system and go back to what you are accustom to doing. Which in todays culture, it's ISO ball. Maybe we need ISO Trier back. He was my favorite AND 1 type of player. He's a walking bucket. Regardless, thibs most definitely need to take some of this blame on offense. Because come 3rd quarter, and shots not falling, you better believe they going back to ISO ball and turnovers, which leads to blow out loses. Sorry for the rant. But thats todays basketball.

And NEWS FLASH, this team is lacking skilled ISO players, eventhough most fall back to ISO ball (cough...cough...Randle). When he has it going, we accept it. When he doesn't, it leads to a huge lose and ugly basketball and bad defense, because the other 4 are just waiting their turn to do the same as Randle. Meanwhile the other team is running and gunning. Players are leaking out like Obi does on every play. But every team has a bunch of Obi's ready to run at all positions.

You don't recall him playing those minutes? Look it up. He was not the focal point player. He was bought in to play PF as a 25 year old to fill in for KP. He impressed the **** out of us year two. WE got to the 4th seed on his back. The blame on him for the ouster by ATL was over the top. Like he was this max player for years then disappointed us was silly. We love him last year and we take all the frustrations out of disppointment on him.
Fact is only the media "haters" had us pegged at .500 and many said Randle would not repeat his season. He took a very less than max deal BTW. Everyone but the Bing Bongers was inline. He is being treated like he has failed us.
Is his season disappointing? of course it is. But we close to .500 so not sure what is so crushing that Briggs want to go nuclear.
"Free OBI"?
"Free Duece"? As if Thibs is all stubborn and closed minded about yoot? Really? IQ, Grimes and RJ all in the rotation. OBI also. He has to beat out Taj for minutes at the C. He doesn't.
He can't hit a shot. He can't play big minutes at the 4.

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:

martin wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:I find some fault with Thibs because he hasn't adjusted. I get the love/priority for Randle and RJ (they are 2 best players) but watching Randle (and to a lesser extent RJ) make the same mistakes over and over and not hold them accountable or switch things up - that's on him IMO. Yes there are limited options, but any forum member here could have laid out this type of offense with a limited roster. Thibs's bread and butter is preparation and obtaining defensive effort from his teams. Thibs is also really lacking in offensive creativity and too stubborn. I do admire his loyalty to players (and understand the value) but at some point he needs to step back and not keep riding our best player simply because he's our best player. Our best player has average court vision and struggles when pressured with the ball. So the offense needs to be spread out more so Randle doesn't have such a heavy load. Problem is Randle just stands around when he doesn't have the ball in his hands much of the time. In fairness, most of the Knick starters do that. Only 2nd unit cuts, runs hard and moves the ball well.

I agree with most of what you are saying but I cannot get over the Offensive Creativity statement that I keep hearing repeated.

His best 2 players are RJ and Randle and they are not good passers. Rose has been out. Kemba we all knew his background. IQ is learning.

Mitch is still learning basic basketball fundamentals.

What creativity do you think ANY coach could put into that circumstance from an offensive perspective?

The Knicks run the same types of sets that 75% of the NBA runs.

Yes, part of this is Thibs being labeled for so many years. So now we get an up and close look, and Randle / RJ was(lets start with last year, haven't checked this year, sorry) was top 3 in minutes played? I hear you that most coaches do this, but I don't remember Randle playing that much in NO or in LA before he came to the knicks. Maybe he did and Thigs "run to the ground" label allowed the media to highlight this when he came to the knicks. But I think Rose injury may have placed that label on Thibs, how he played Rose until he blew a tire. I remember MDA had that same label, and guess what? Kobe blew a tire when MDA was the coach. So it may be just a label, but top 3 in minutes? How the hell your minutes are equal or more than lebron? Talking about last year. So this to me confirmed the "run into the ground" label for me. Yes Randle and RJ was the best, for arguement sake. Doesn't mean you put Lebron James load on RJ.

Lack of creativity on offense was another label of Thibs I've heard before he came here. Well, guess what? Now that I get a close look, our offense isn't the most creative. MDA had a more creative offense. Is it the players or system. I clearly remember players like Rose saying, "As long as you play defense, Thibs gives you freedom on offense". So maybe it's not a lack of creativity on offense. Maybe it's a lack of a system period on offense. Again, haven't don't any fact checking on our current system, just listening to former players and watching an offense that looks stagnant.

Or maybe like someone said, we have players that aren't used to passing and cutting. In todays basketball (I'm the old man that still plays), these kids just simply take turns with the ball, while the other 4 players stand and watch. I kind of see that same thing in todays NBA, and this could be a cultural shift and less about Thibs. But Thibs is the coach and he should still be held accountable when players stand around and don't cut. It's gives off a lack of energy and allows the other 4 to just pout and forget to guard their man. Which is why any team we play go on these long runs.

Now I have seen improvement, like the 1st half of yesterdays game. Randle was leading this pass and cut system, and it was working. So I can tell Thibs is doing or changing something. But like every new system, when players stop scoring and jumpshots aren't going in, you abandon the system and go back to what you are accustom to doing. Which in todays culture, it's ISO ball. Maybe we need ISO Trier back. He was my favorite AND 1 type of player. He's a walking bucket. Regardless, thibs most definitely need to take some of this blame on offense. Because come 3rd quarter, and shots not falling, you better believe they going back to ISO ball and turnovers, which leads to blow out loses. Sorry for the rant. But thats todays basketball.

And NEWS FLASH, this team is lacking skilled ISO players, eventhough most fall back to ISO ball (cough...cough...Randle). When he has it going, we accept it. When he doesn't, it leads to a huge lose and ugly basketball and bad defense, because the other 4 are just waiting their turn to do the same as Randle. Meanwhile the other team is running and gunning. Players are leaking out like Obi does on every play. But every team has a bunch of Obi's ready to run at all positions.

I have to tell you, little of what you are saying makes sense to me or based off of much of anything that is built on a well thought out argument. I don't know if you are rushed to respond but it doesn't look like you have time to put a full thought process together.

Maybe you are on your phone and can't look stuff up first? Stuff that you are clearly guessing at and getting wrong? Like, RJ didn't play "LeBron minutes" last year mostly cause LeBron played the least amount of minutes in his career because he got hurt 33MPG, typically he has averaged around 38 minutes for his career. LeBron played 40 minutes in his first year and then followed it up with 42, 42, 40, 40 MPG over his first 5 years. RJ played 35 minutes last year, top 20 in the league.

And on and on.

Yes everything you said is all true.
Just a quick response to Nalod. And he already responded. I forgot I wrote this. Lol

I have to tell you, little of what you are saying makes sense to me or based off of much of anything that is built on a well thought out argument. I don't know if you are rushed to respond but it doesn't look like you have time to put a full thought process together.
Maybe you are on your phone and can't look stuff up first? Stuff that you are clearly guessing at and getting wrong? Like, RJ didn't play "LeBron minutes" last year mostly cause LeBron played the least amount of minutes in his career because he got hurt 33MPG, typically he has averaged around 38 minutes for his career. LeBron played 40 minutes in his first year and then followed it up with 42, 42, 40, 40 MPG over his first 5 years. RJ played 35 minutes last year, top 20 in the league.

Ok wait….just read your reply. As far as RJ playing Lebron mins. I do remember RJ and Randle was top 5 in minutes played per game at one point during the season. Maybe that tapered off and people stopped talking about it towards the end of the season. when I said Lebron, I was going off memory back when I did check, and all the players at top mins played was top tier nba talent. Basically a group of nba players clearly better than RJ and Randle. It was a big deal then and all over knick social media. So I didn’t make that up or have to dig that up because every knick news outlet talked about it. But I’m not trying to argue the exact mins anyway. The only point I was making was thibs plays his players a ton of mins. That’s all. I was just in a wordy mood this morning. Nothing more nothing less. Thank u for letting me vent.

blkexec wrote:

I have to tell you, little of what you are saying makes sense to me or based off of much of anything that is built on a well thought out argument. I don't know if you are rushed to respond but it doesn't look like you have time to put a full thought process together.
Maybe you are on your phone and can't look stuff up first? Stuff that you are clearly guessing at and getting wrong? Like, RJ didn't play "LeBron minutes" last year mostly cause LeBron played the least amount of minutes in his career because he got hurt 33MPG, typically he has averaged around 38 minutes for his career. LeBron played 40 minutes in his first year and then followed it up with 42, 42, 40, 40 MPG over his first 5 years. RJ played 35 minutes last year, top 20 in the league.

Ok wait….just read your reply. As far as RJ playing Lebron mins. I do remember RJ and Randle was top 5 in minutes played per game at one point during the season. Maybe that tapered off and people stopped talking about it towards the end of the season. when I said Lebron, I was going off memory back when I did check, and all the players at top mins played was top tier nba talent. Basically a group of nba players clearly better than RJ and Randle. It was a big deal then and all over knick social media. So I didn’t make that up or have to dig that up because every knick news outlet talked about it. But I’m not trying to argue the exact mins anyway. The only point I was making was thibs plays his players a ton of mins. That’s all. I was just in a wordy mood this morning. Nothing more nothing less. Thank u for letting me vent.

I mean, Thibs does play his main guys a lot. Just like most EVERY OTHER COACH does. That was my follow up point.

So it's pointless really.

jaydh wrote:

blkexec wrote:

SergioNYK wrote:I think the only way we can salvage Randle and live with him for the remainder of his contract is by somehow acquiring an attacking penetrating scoring PG. Pretty much a younger version of Rose. This team has played their best ball the last two seasons when Rose was playing well consistently. But those guys are almost impossible to acquire unless you want to take a risk and trade for Westbrook (I don't!). But I think we need a guard with the respect to his name who will take the ball out of Randle's hands and consistently attack and score. We need to limit Randle's responsibilities and have him play Robin to a Batman at PG.

Kemba's toast. He can't give you good consistent production with those knees. And Brunson is not it either. Hate to be greedy but we honestly need an All-Star level player at the position if we are ever going to reach this teams max potential with Randle on the roster.

Not sure why everybody is against adding the ultimate rim attacking guard in westbrick, during his expiring contract year. Now I’m against giving up much and maybe that’s the issue. But if this FO can work it’s magic without giving up the farm or youths you do it. If that’s nearly impossible then move on.

I'm with you, I would trade for Westbrook to clear out long term salary and/or to try and grab a 1st or 2 from a desperate Lakers.

To be clear, Westbrook makes $44M this year and has a player option next year for $47M next year and I don't know ANYONE who would be declining that money unless it is to extend and there is no way Knicks are trading FOR Westbrook just to be in the position to S&T him next year.

So, play it out. Who are you trading from the Knicks that makes sense? Just no way Knicks trading Randle. So, go for it. Which salary are you clearing out?

Randle  $20M
Founier $18M
DRose   $13M
Alex    $9.5M
Noel    $9M
Walker  $8.7M

https://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/NYK.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/LAL.html

Philc1 wrote:If we keep losing games with Kemba and his noodle knee and Burks self destructing at PG I can see Westbrook coming here

Why though? It’s not worth the headache. Once you accept this season isn’t going to go well trading for Westbrook to make next season bad makes no sense. It’s only making things worse for a longer period.

In FA we could look to make a move on a PG two targets is Brunson or Sexton through S&T. Sexton especially might be gettable because the Cavs really don’t have a SG and Garland and Okoro make Sexton pointless. Another move would be to offer Fournier and the Mavs 2023 pick for Brunson in a S&T this summer. I hate to give that pick up, but those are both two scenarios only possible in the summer through S&T.

Westbrook is playing like trash now that he isn’t a Uber athlete and I love seeing him mess us the smug Lebron and Lakers plans. The Knicks need to stay the heck away from that situation. We’re not gifting Lebron Shumpert and JR Smith for two seconds again.

Philc1 wrote:

wargames wrote:

Philc1 wrote:If we keep losing games with Kemba and his noodle knee and Burks self destructing at PG I can see Westbrook coming here

Why though? It’s not worth the headache. Once you accept this season isn’t going to go well trading for Westbrook to make next season bad makes no sense. It’s only making things worse for a longer period.

In FA we could look to make a move on a PG two targets is Brunson or Sexton through S&T. Sexton especially might be gettable because the Cavs really don’t have a SG and Garland and Okoro make Sexton pointless. Another move would be to offer Fournier and the Mavs 2023 pick for Brunson in a S&T this summer. I hate to give that pick up, but those are both two scenarios only possible in the summer through S&T.

Westbrook is playing like trash now that he isn’t a Uber athlete and I love seeing him mess us the smug Lebron and Lakers plans. The Knicks need to stay the heck away from that situation. We’re not gifting Lebron Shumpert and JR Smith for two seconds again.

We aren’t under cap what are we signing these guys with Monopoly money?

It’s a Sign and Trade I call it S&T for short. Basically their teams sign them for say 20 Million and then trade them immediately to the Knicks for Fournier’s $17 Million contract.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sign-and-trade_deal

The last time I think the Knicks did one was David Lee, but we was sending the newly signed guy out
https://www.espn.com/new-york/nba/news/story?id=5364903

We can send multiple guys out but only could get Sexton or Brunson back in return. I think Sexton would be very gettable from the Cavs. They don’t really want him and could use Fournier. The Mavs for Brunson to a lesser degree, but you know they want that 2023 pick back.