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Nalod
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11/24/2021  1:34 PM
Philc1 wrote:
Nalod wrote:
Philc1 wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:The team is much younger than the one year wonder melo team. This team has much more realistic sustainability. Our biggest problems
A.accept 3/4 games when Barrett started looking like an all star he’s been awful
B. Fournier and kemba have not upgraded this team
C. Noel has been hurt too much Robinson is not there

Thibs gets accolades for changing “some” culture. But Derrick Rose is The ONLY reason he was coach of year. I would’ve liked to see an energy injection. Something like giving Grimes a chance or letting obi play 32 min. The only young player he’s been loyal to other than barrett is iq. Whatever it is- something. So I think he’s not a great adjuster— maybe loyal to a fault.

As far as Julius — we can win with him.there is absolutely no doubt in my mind. I think they 10 three point shot game woke him up. While he hasn’t been as good as last year— he’s not the biggest problem

I’m just going to keep repeating it because it’s true. Kemba and EF cannot be on the floor at the same time. Neither guy is much of a defender now. Our starting lineup is a Swiss cheese D because of that

Between the 2 of them I like Kemba starting because of his shooting ability and the fact that we don’t have a better option for starting PG. Rose is a 6th man now and IQ is really a 2

So if EF is not starting, do you have any reality based thinking as to what they should do? Is Burks a better defender? Or we on the Grimes bandwagon now? Cuz if so, EF is not on the second team is he?
I don't have any better ideas other than trying to understand the real issues at hand. Change is not always improvement.

What is the “real issue?” Should we try to trade draft picks to the suns for Elf to save the season?


NO. There is a blueprint to evolve the team. Sometimes regression is a path. 2 steps bacck to take 10 forward. Forget Elf, thats the past.
AUTOADVERT
Uptown
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12/8/2021  6:52 PM
I detest Randle-Ball, I don't necessarily detest the player. Last night vs. the Spurs was one of Randle's best games the season and is the way he needs to play the rest of the year. With the exception of 2 Kobe-like fall-away's from the baseline, he didn't force anything and picked his spots, nicely.

RJ actually led the team in usage last night, and the team, smartly and unselfishly, fed him while he was hot. There was even a moment when we were inbounding the ball and Burks, who is supposed to be the lead guard, pointed at Randle (urging the in-bounder to pass it to Randle for some reason) and Randle gave the ball back to Burks and trotted up court. I hope we get to a point where guys stop deferring to Randle. Not saying its Randle's fault, but just something that's noticeable and annoying with some of our players...
ramtour420
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12/8/2021  6:59 PM
Uptown wrote:I detest Randle-Ball, I don't necessarily detest the player. Last night vs. the Spurs was one of Randle's best games the season and is the way he needs to play the rest of the year. With the exception of 2 Kobe-like fall-away's from the baseline, he didn't force anything and picked his spots, nicely.

RJ actually led the team in usage last night, and the team, smartly and unselfishly, fed him while he was hot. There was even a moment when we were inbounding the ball and Burks, who is supposed to be the lead guard, pointed at Randle (urging the in-bounder to pass it to Randle for some reason) and Randle gave the ball back to Burks and trotted up court. I hope we get to a point where guys stop deferring to Randle. Not saying its Randle's fault, but just something that's noticeable and annoying with some of our players...

I like when Randle gets into the paint and dishes to a 3 point shooter. To me that's Randle ball at its finest and I like it. I don't like Randle forcing things from midrange while being defended. That's also Randle ball and I detest it as well. I am still waiting for Randle-RJ PnR or PnPop. Why are we not running it? I don't know. They are both good finishers at the rim. That should be our counter to Randle ball. That way we can give the opponent some different looks..

Everything you have ever wanted is on the other side of fear- George Adair
fwk00
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12/8/2021  9:46 PM
Randle is a good trade chip but sometimes there just are no trades that can straighten out this mess.
jskinny35
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12/8/2021  10:02 PM
fwk00 wrote:Randle is a good trade chip but sometimes there just are no trades that can straighten out this mess.

I agree there is probably no one trade that will straighten out everything - but there are trade options (some involving Randle) that could change the trajectory of this team if we are willing to accept some regression/growing pains in the process. Key is to not sacrifice RJ or any of the under 25 year old players for a quick fix - still developing.

For me, Randle, Mitch or Noel, Knox, Kemba, Burks, Fournier are all available. I realize only Randle and Mitch/Noel possess real value, but Burks and Fournier could be helpers on the right team (bench role).

We also have a ton of picks that could be used.

Let's just hope management isn't dead set on trading for a Lillard or Wall in hopes of trying to surround Randle with a better fit.
knicks1248
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12/8/2021  10:24 PM
Randle is not the problem by any stretch of your imagination..
ES
fwk00
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12/8/2021  10:27 PM
jskinny35 wrote:
fwk00 wrote:Randle is a good trade chip but sometimes there just are no trades that can straighten out this mess.

I agree there is probably no one trade that will straighten out everything - but there are trade options (some involving Randle) that could change the trajectory of this team if we are willing to accept some regression/growing pains in the process. Key is to not sacrifice RJ or any of the under 25 year old players for a quick fix - still developing.

For me, Randle, Mitch or Noel, Knox, Kemba, Burks, Fournier are all available. I realize only Randle and Mitch/Noel possess real value, but Burks and Fournier could be helpers on the right team (bench role).

We also have a ton of picks that could be used.

Let's just hope management isn't dead set on trading for a Lillard or Wall in hopes of trying to surround Randle with a better fit.

Please god, no to John Wall.
fwk00
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12/8/2021  10:30 PM
knicks1248 wrote:Randle is not the problem by any stretch of your imagination..

Randle is not a solution by any stretch of *your* imagination.

Look we just lost by 20 to a team that's blowing it up. Let that sink in.

With Obi playing great ball you have to shop Randle. Crazy not to.
Allanfan20
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12/8/2021  11:38 PM
knicks1248 wrote:Randle is not the problem by any stretch of your imagination..

You’re right. He’s not the sole and only problem. He’s a problem though and he’s a big problem. Where would you like me to start with him?

“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Clean
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12/9/2021  3:14 AM

Why can't we have a team that plays beautiful basketball like this? Why must we go from really bad ISO Melo to complete trash ISO Randle. I was looking at a highlight that I saw on my social media timeline and got disgusted that I am a fan of this dumpster fire of a team. I am getting close to totally ignoring this team until its lottery time to see if for once in my life we will have good luck with a draft pick.
Uptown
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12/9/2021  8:45 AM
After playing one of his best games of the year, it looked like Randle had his mind made-up that he was going to get up shots last night, regardless. He took just as many shots (maybe 1 less) as the starters combined in the 1st half.

I was completely "out" on Randle during and after the 2019-2020 season. I wanted him gone!! I gave him his props last year for the improvement but was still skeptical that it might have been an aberration. I was in wait and see mode this year (wouldn't have committed to him this past summer). Based on what I am seeing this year; the way he is playing, his body language, the low motor on defense, I am starting to feel the same way about Randle as I did during the 2019-2020 season. Unfortunately, it feels as though Randle, Thibs and the FO are all in bed together. I don't think this FO has any plans of moving Randle...If anything, it feels as if they will double-down and trade for pieces to play with Randle.

martin
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12/9/2021  9:24 AM
Uptown wrote:After playing one of his best games of the year, it looked like Randle had his mind made-up that he was going to get up shots last night, regardless. He took just as many shots (maybe 1 less) as the starters combined in the 1st half.

I was completely "out" on Randle during and after the 2019-2020 season. I wanted him gone!! I gave him his props last year for the improvement but was still skeptical that it might have been an aberration. I was in wait and see mode this year (wouldn't have committed to him this past summer). Based on what I am seeing this year; the way he is playing, his body language, the low motor on defense, I am starting to feel the same way about Randle as I did during the 2019-2020 season. Unfortunately, it feels as though Randle, Thibs and the FO are all in bed together. I don't think this FO has any plans of moving Randle...If anything, it feels as if they will double-down and trade for pieces to play with Randle.

You had me right up until the end. That last bit feels more like frustration but I just dont think it is happening. Thib, FO see the same things we do, and more.

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Philc1
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12/9/2021  10:36 AM
Randle is becoming a serious black hole on offense. Our offense is so much better when Obi is on the floor at PF
Philc1
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12/9/2021  10:39 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/9/2021  10:41 AM
fwk00 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Randle is not the problem by any stretch of your imagination..

Randle is not a solution by any stretch of *your* imagination.

Look we just lost by 20 to a team that's blowing it up. Let that sink in.

With Obi playing great ball you have to shop Randle. Crazy not to.

I didn’t want to extend Randle. I even advocated trading him last summer and got called a retard for saying so.


His ISO stuff is infuriating. Not saying we’d be 20-4 with him not on the roster but our ball movement is so much better when he’s not playing. And it’s not like we don’t have another high draft pick PF on the roster who has shown a ton of potential just waiting behind him


Trade Randle Goddammit. I don’t care if the media roasts us they roasted us for trading Porzingis and that move looks like genius now — and we didn’t even have an Obi Toppin back then
Uptown
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12/9/2021  12:05 PM
martin wrote:
Uptown wrote:After playing one of his best games of the year, it looked like Randle had his mind made-up that he was going to get up shots last night, regardless. He took just as many shots (maybe 1 less) as the starters combined in the 1st half.

I was completely "out" on Randle during and after the 2019-2020 season. I wanted him gone!! I gave him his props last year for the improvement but was still skeptical that it might have been an aberration. I was in wait and see mode this year (wouldn't have committed to him this past summer). Based on what I am seeing this year; the way he is playing, his body language, the low motor on defense, I am starting to feel the same way about Randle as I did during the 2019-2020 season. Unfortunately, it feels as though Randle, Thibs and the FO are all in bed together. I don't think this FO has any plans of moving Randle...If anything, it feels as if they will double-down and trade for pieces to play with Randle.

You had me right up until the end. That last bit feels more like frustration but I just dont think it is happening. Thib, FO see the same things we do, and more.

I hope you're right....
franco12
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12/9/2021  12:32 PM
Philc1 wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Randle is not the problem by any stretch of your imagination..

Randle is not a solution by any stretch of *your* imagination.

Look we just lost by 20 to a team that's blowing it up. Let that sink in.

With Obi playing great ball you have to shop Randle. Crazy not to.

I didn’t want to extend Randle. I even advocated trading him last summer and got called a retard for saying so.


His ISO stuff is infuriating. Not saying we’d be 20-4 with him not on the roster but our ball movement is so much better when he’s not playing. And it’s not like we don’t have another high draft pick PF on the roster who has shown a ton of potential just waiting behind him


Trade Randle Goddammit. I don’t care if the media roasts us they roasted us for trading Porzingis and that move looks like genius now — and we didn’t even have an Obi Toppin back then

I love that Randle is a gamer- grind it out kinda guy. Reminds me of our Riley Knicks with guys that hustled to make up for a lack of talent.

I do think he can get back to last years form. Your right, this year, it's hold the ball, turn overs, not making smart quick decisions. Flashes I thought in SA.

Every time he takes the ball on offense, he should assume the double is coming, because it does. He should look for the pass out that can start the offense.

But- trading him might make sense- if there is a three way where maybe we can get Simmons, I'd look at it.
jskinny35
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12/9/2021  12:54 PM
To be fair and realistic - we have to take into account that Randle commands a double team and the other players (RJ, Toppin, etc) would need to learn how to play with more pressure on them (at least initially). I am the opposite of a Randle supporter and have been calling for the Knicks to move on from him since the beginning of last year. That said, moving on from Randle will mostly likely result in a regression for awhile at least. I'm cool with that because I believe Randle is not "the guy" and doesn't possess the ability or court vision to have an offense designed around him. The quicker we acknowledge that and move on - the faster we have a chance to move in a direction that doesn't automatically dead end IMO.

Question for me is that a comparable player (even at a different position but a starter) that can offer similar production, moves the ball and tries harder than Randle on the defensive end. I was almost thinking a player like Sabonis would offer much of these above qualities - but think his defense may be worse than Randles. If Indy would take Randle for M.Turner that could be something - but don't believe they would want Randle and Sabonis playing together.

Is there an obtainable wing player that could help?

-Last season I was hoping for Lavine but that ship has sailed (cost would be crazy now). Jerami Grant decent but not better.

A Center we could obtain by packaging Mitch and Randle?

-Ayton would be of interest but Phx is playing terrific so no deal there. Don't like Towns at all. Embiid not available and injury prone

A PG that could take the ball out of Randle's hands and make him play better?

-CP3 not available. Lillard too costly and old. Wall not a good enough shooter, expensive and had a major injury.

I can't think of any older/vets that would be a significant upgrade so would look toward keeping our young core and trying to add more young talent by trading Randle (and either Mitch or Noel if helps land better quality talent). Knox, Kemba, Burks also available always
fishmike
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12/9/2021  5:43 PM
Uptown wrote:
martin wrote:
Uptown wrote:After playing one of his best games of the year, it looked like Randle had his mind made-up that he was going to get up shots last night, regardless. He took just as many shots (maybe 1 less) as the starters combined in the 1st half.

I was completely "out" on Randle during and after the 2019-2020 season. I wanted him gone!! I gave him his props last year for the improvement but was still skeptical that it might have been an aberration. I was in wait and see mode this year (wouldn't have committed to him this past summer). Based on what I am seeing this year; the way he is playing, his body language, the low motor on defense, I am starting to feel the same way about Randle as I did during the 2019-2020 season. Unfortunately, it feels as though Randle, Thibs and the FO are all in bed together. I don't think this FO has any plans of moving Randle...If anything, it feels as if they will double-down and trade for pieces to play with Randle.

You had me right up until the end. That last bit feels more like frustration but I just dont think it is happening. Thib, FO see the same things we do, and more.

I hope you're right....

I both agree with Martin AND hope he's right.

Bottom line is regardless of HOW they play Randle is having a terrible year. This is his worst EFG% since he was a rookie, and he's putting up more shots than anyone else but a large margin. Thats a combo for losing BB

This truth cant be unseen. 20 games in we are seeing Obi's minutes creeping up. Lets see. Thibs is loyal to his guys, but that criteria is the part that make it OK. Jules earned a long leash and I hope above all else we get him right.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Uptown
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12/9/2021  9:02 PM
fishmike wrote:
Uptown wrote:
martin wrote:
Uptown wrote:After playing one of his best games of the year, it looked like Randle had his mind made-up that he was going to get up shots last night, regardless. He took just as many shots (maybe 1 less) as the starters combined in the 1st half.

I was completely "out" on Randle during and after the 2019-2020 season. I wanted him gone!! I gave him his props last year for the improvement but was still skeptical that it might have been an aberration. I was in wait and see mode this year (wouldn't have committed to him this past summer). Based on what I am seeing this year; the way he is playing, his body language, the low motor on defense, I am starting to feel the same way about Randle as I did during the 2019-2020 season. Unfortunately, it feels as though Randle, Thibs and the FO are all in bed together. I don't think this FO has any plans of moving Randle...If anything, it feels as if they will double-down and trade for pieces to play with Randle.

You had me right up until the end. That last bit feels more like frustration but I just dont think it is happening. Thib, FO see the same things we do, and more.

I hope you're right....

I both agree with Martin AND hope he's right.

Bottom line is regardless of HOW they play Randle is having a terrible year. This is his worst EFG% since he was a rookie, and he's putting up more shots than anyone else but a large margin. Thats a combo for losing BB

This truth cant be unseen. 20 games in we are seeing Obi's minutes creeping up. Lets see. Thibs is loyal to his guys, but that criteria is the part that make it OK. Jules earned a long leash and I hope above all else we get him right.

Its gonna be tough to get him right...It was reported that during the season opener vs Boston, after every basket, Randle was yelling out "Gimme my respect!" Randle won MIP was 2nd team all NBA and was a first time allstar. How much more respect do you need? Looks like Randles personal agenda and goals superceded the team goals. He got the money, allstar game under his belt and is the face of NY basketball, now its time to be a superstar.

Like I said, I hope Martin is right. but I do have some concerns about the FO and Randles relationship. One of the first things Wes did when Leon brought him on board was call Randle and ask what he needed to be an allstar. We hired his former coach at UK. We give Randle an extension with a year left on his deal rather than waiting and seeing if last year was an outlier. Not to mention. the Knicks organization loves a good narrative...Maybe I am reading too much into it but I hope dont hesitate to move him if the opportunity presents itself.
Philc1
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12/9/2021  9:55 PM
fishmike wrote:
Uptown wrote:
martin wrote:
Uptown wrote:After playing one of his best games of the year, it looked like Randle had his mind made-up that he was going to get up shots last night, regardless. He took just as many shots (maybe 1 less) as the starters combined in the 1st half.

I was completely "out" on Randle during and after the 2019-2020 season. I wanted him gone!! I gave him his props last year for the improvement but was still skeptical that it might have been an aberration. I was in wait and see mode this year (wouldn't have committed to him this past summer). Based on what I am seeing this year; the way he is playing, his body language, the low motor on defense, I am starting to feel the same way about Randle as I did during the 2019-2020 season. Unfortunately, it feels as though Randle, Thibs and the FO are all in bed together. I don't think this FO has any plans of moving Randle...If anything, it feels as if they will double-down and trade for pieces to play with Randle.

You had me right up until the end. That last bit feels more like frustration but I just dont think it is happening. Thib, FO see the same things we do, and more.

I hope you're right....

I both agree with Martin AND hope he's right.

Bottom line is regardless of HOW they play Randle is having a terrible year. This is his worst EFG% since he was a rookie, and he's putting up more shots than anyone else but a large margin. Thats a combo for losing BB

This truth cant be unseen. 20 games in we are seeing Obi's minutes creeping up. Lets see. Thibs is loyal to his guys, but that criteria is the part that make it OK. Jules earned a long leash and I hope above all else we get him right.

Bingo we have a winner here


Randle’s season last year was an aberration
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