If the chips fall the right way, I see the Knicks, as presently constructed, as a finals contender coming out of the east.

We don’t have the absolute best top end talent (the Nets have that) - but they didn’t even make it to the conference finals. What we do have going for us:

* unparalleled quality depth. We can go 2 or 3 deep in NBA rotation players at every position. Randle is the only player without a backup who can’t mirror his skill set.
* quality coaching. Maybe I should say defensive coaching first…
* quality youth - Gibson is a nice player and all, but if the starters come out flat, you want hungry young players who are excited to be out there that can shift the momentum. You only get that from younger players.

Last season, Randle was by and far the team’s best player, and as good as RJ was, Burks was debatably the guy that looked like the #2 option in the playoffs with his all-around game. And yes, we suffered for that after Randle was shut down.

To really improve, Randle and RJ in particular need to level up again. Sure the likes of Kemba and Fournier will enhance the team, as will the return of Mitch. But those two guys have proven so far they have the ability to grow and expand their games.

This year’s Knicks have a lot of guys that deserve the ball and the most straight forward blueprint is the 2004 championship Pistons, perhaps the last team to win it with an all out team effort.
That type of balance is very rare. Even the balanced KG/Allen/Pierce/Rondo Celtics still used some hero ball from Pierce, who basically traded basket for basket with Kobe. So much the better if Randle and RJ have what it takes to step it up a notch.

The Knicks won’t be the sexy pick to rule the east, but I think should finish in the upper half of playoff spot and be a tough match up night in and night out.

Marv wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:Randle is top 10 on our team - but not close to top 10 in the NBA. Top 10 players match or exceed their regular season performance against average defensive teams - they don't struggle mightily even when they're the lone star on a so so team. Dame is a good example of this when they played the Nuggets. Name any top 10 player that shrunk in the playoffs (like Randle did) and you'll realize he's not in the top 10. Maybe top 30?

U’re 2nd team all-nba u’re top 10. by definition

Marv, great to know you also have a dictionary!

Yes， that's why I said objectively.'

Instead of everyone arguing their own opinion，we can just have the top NBA experts vote on who they think are the best，and assume that panel of experts know more collectively than we do individually.

The Knicks signed a 2nd team all NBA player，former MVP，and a an All Star in 4 of the past 5 seasons and people are still talking about when will we trade for a "star." I think we got at least 3.

jskinny35 wrote:We can agree to disagree - I could name 20 players we would offer Randle to trade for and the other team would pass. You think we could get Randle for any of these 10-11 players in a trade? Lebron, Durant, Luka, AD, Giannis, S.Curry, Kawhi, Jokic, Embiid, Booker, (Harden), even Dame would net more...

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=randlju01&p1yrfrom=2021&player_id2=davisan02&p2yrfrom=2021

If you just go by the stats it's pretty hard to argue that Anthony Davis is the better player.

jskinny35 wrote:Randle is top 10 on our team - but not close to top 10 in the NBA. Top 10 players match or exceed their regular season performance against average defensive teams - they don't struggle mightily even when they're the lone star on a so so team. Dame is a good example of this when they played the Nuggets. Name any top 10 player that shrunk in the playoffs (like Randle did) and you'll realize he's not in the top 10. Maybe top 30?

Those playoffs were one of, if not the worst performance i've seen from an All-NBA player

Jmpasq wrote:

Marv wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:Randle is top 10 on our team - but not close to top 10 in the NBA. Top 10 players match or exceed their regular season performance against average defensive teams - they don't struggle mightily even when they're the lone star on a so so team. Dame is a good example of this when they played the Nuggets. Name any top 10 player that shrunk in the playoffs (like Randle did) and you'll realize he's not in the top 10. Maybe top 30?

U’re 2nd team all-nba u’re top 10. by definition

If you go by position. There are at least 15 players better, maybe 20. He is a Tier 3 Star player

Yeah i'd say he's firmly a top 25 player without controversy but it would be hard to put him into the top 20 without some argument. He's probably somewhere around the 20th best player right now.

Marv wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

Marv wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:Randle is top 10 on our team - but not close to top 10 in the NBA. Top 10 players match or exceed their regular season performance against average defensive teams - they don't struggle mightily even when they're the lone star on a so so team. Dame is a good example of this when they played the Nuggets. Name any top 10 player that shrunk in the playoffs (like Randle did) and you'll realize he's not in the top 10. Maybe top 30?

U’re 2nd team all-nba u’re top 10. by definition

If you go by position. There are at least 15 players better, maybe 20. He is a Tier 3 Star player

you might have conceptions of who's better, but if you look at 2020-2021 he was top ten.
2nd team all-nba
#8 vote-getter for mvp
2nd player ever beside larry bird to go 20/10/5/40% 3's
leading player on turning around a lottery team to a #4-seed
leadership
clutch

that's a top-10 season my friend

Question remains whether he can do this again.

EwingsGlass wrote:

Marv wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

Marv wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:Randle is top 10 on our team - but not close to top 10 in the NBA. Top 10 players match or exceed their regular season performance against average defensive teams - they don't struggle mightily even when they're the lone star on a so so team. Dame is a good example of this when they played the Nuggets. Name any top 10 player that shrunk in the playoffs (like Randle did) and you'll realize he's not in the top 10. Maybe top 30?

U’re 2nd team all-nba u’re top 10. by definition

If you go by position. There are at least 15 players better, maybe 20. He is a Tier 3 Star player

you might have conceptions of who's better, but if you look at 2020-2021 he was top ten.
2nd team all-nba
#8 vote-getter for mvp
2nd player ever beside larry bird to go 20/10/5/40% 3's
leading player on turning around a lottery team to a #4-seed
leadership
clutch

that's a top-10 season my friend

Question remains whether he can do this again.

sure, i understand that, but given:

-he's 26
-has been healthy and able to play a high percentage of games
-has an apparently great relationship with his coach and thrives in his system
-is known for an incredible off-season regimen
-will have better players around him this year

then I’d guess he has a better chance of replicating his season than the majority of the 25 players that some think are better than him

Randle is not who you build around - we will because he's the best we have (that is the reason I am open to moving him at any point for a deal that makes sense). If we are somehow able to acquire a top 10 player and Randle is kosher with becoming the support star - then that could realistically work. So look at that list of top 10/15 players and eliminate the over 32 crowd, the players that will never leave their respective teams and see what's left.

We're banking on either taking a Dame (31 years old - lotta miles, no defense), hoping AD wants to leave in a season or two when Lebron maybe slows down more, Luka deciding Jkidd is really a jerk and decides to bail, Suns regressing so Booker changes tune and wants out... Maybe Embiid is our best hope for a franchise-type talent but he's a bit of a headcase and has injury history.

I really believe the play was to sell high and package Randle for one of those top 4/5 picks (during this draft) and hope the young pick emerges into a homegrown talent (like Donovan Mitchell). I guess RJ's development this coming season will tell us who we should be prioritizing and building around going forward.

jskinny35 wrote:C'mon guys - this wasn't meant to take away from Randle being the best we got. He deserves a lot of credit for turning it around (after 2019) and improving a lot. That said, he is not top 10 or maybe not top 20. He is a very good Robin to a Batman type of player. The most important thing we as fans (and management) can do is be realistic with our player evaluation and understanding of how players fit on a team. We overvalued Melo when we had him and didn't seem to understand team fit when we paired him with Amare (two defenseless forwards that like the ball). At least you could say Melo (at that time) was clearly Top 10 offensively without a doubt. His defensive deficiencies dropped him but when surrounded by enough veterans/sold defensive players - you could build around him and hide his weaknesses. Randle is adequate defensively but defenses can shut him down offensively. He's not athletic enough to impose his will like all those players I mentioned previously. Swap out Giannis, Luka, etc and they are still scoring, making plays vs a team like the Hawks - it's not the same level. Btw - Not a top 20 player but not sure Sac would take D.Fox for Randle? B.Ingram for Randle? Zion? Trae Young, Middleton? Paul George? Donovan Mitchell? We prob couldn't get Ben Simmons and a shooting machine for Randle straight up and they seem desperate to trade Simmons?

Randle is not who you build around - we will because he's the best we have (that is the reason I am open to moving him at any point for a deal that makes sense). If we are somehow able to acquire a top 10 player and Randle is kosher with becoming the support star - then that could realistically work. So look at that list of top 10/15 players and eliminate the over 32 crowd, the players that will never leave their respective teams and see what's left.

We're banking on either taking a Dame (31 years old - lotta miles, no defense), hoping AD wants to leave in a season or two when Lebron maybe slows down more, Luka deciding Jkidd is really a jerk and decides to bail, Suns regressing so Booker changes tune and wants out... Maybe Embiid is our best hope for a franchise-type talent but he's a bit of a headcase and has injury history.

I really believe the play was to sell high and package Randle for one of those top 4/5 picks (during this draft) and hope the young pick emerges into a homegrown talent (like Donovan Mitchell). I guess RJ's development this coming season will tell us who we should be prioritizing and building around going forward.

my hope is RJ is the guy that becomes the lead dog, the batman. He's shown signs - and he is young. He reminds me, and I get grief from others here, of a D Wade- not the best shooter, but a guy that can get the clutch basket, hit the big 3 pointer and get to the line because he's able to get into the lane and to the basket for shots.

The criticism is we are locked in to mediocrity - not bad enough to land a franchise talent in the draft, not good enough to get to the finals.

I'm ok with that, to an extent, because for so long, we have been so bad. You really do need to crawl, then walk, then run - we're still at the crawl stage.

And tanking? Might have been nice to add a top pick this year - but look at Philly - they tanked forever and what do they have to show for it? Not much.