TPercy wrote:I don’t like this. I’d rather keep Randle. Keon Johnson is a big red flag to me. He’s got project written all over him and there isn’t a single thing he can contribute besides D. Hard pass.

Trade isn't hinged on Keon, he is just my pick @7.

Lots of other guys for you to make a selection from

It's the value of Wiseman, picks #7, #14 and a talent upgrade will getting much younger.

The thing I don’t like is Wiggins. I’ve never been a fan and he’s super expensive. He’s not a leader. Not alpha. Not sure about him at all. Meaningless stats. I also like Mitch a lot so that biases my opinion

EwingsGlass wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

TheGame wrote:This is a bold strategy for the team, but the problem I see is timing IMO. Both Randle and Mitch are in the last year of their deals. GS would be giving up a lot for two guys they have to try and resign next summer to big contracts. Plus, Randle was only so so in the playoffs and Mitch has not proven he can stay healthy. I don’t think we could do a sign and trade until after FA starts, so the salary situation would be unknown until after the draft. I am not sure GS does that trade unless we added one or two more picks, but I agree they would at least consider it. From our perspective, Wiseman is solid but also unproven. I am not sure I even want Wiggins. We definitely want that pick from GS, and I believe in Toppin enough that I would like to see him get starters minutes. But this trade could set us back 2 years (as Wiseman and Toppin both need at least two more years of development), and I don’t see management making that type of move for a #7 pick, especially when the best two pgs are projected to already be off the board. I think our FO would be more interested in turning the 19 and 21 picks into something high enough to draft Davion Mitchell, who I think could be a longterm solution at PG.

the problem with this deal is we net 1 first round pick. if this is the course of action the Knicks take, they flip Mitch at the deadline for a first. Randle would probably get a better return than Morris at the deadline. So we flip the two best players in the deal to get Andrew 'I have a career PER of under 15 and I'll be making over $30 million next year' Wiggins and be awful next year. Yeah, let's tear it down and wait another 20 years to see a decent team ... 'Trust the proces', martin Hinkie

You are giving virtually no value to the 7th pick and Wiseman. I think it would take a stroke of luck for the Knicks to get GS to agree to a trade like this. I think if you look at this one piece at a time, GSW doesn’t make this trade.

1) I don’t believe the Warriors would trade the 7 straight up for Randle. Especially with only 1 year left on Randle’s contract.

2) I don’t believe the Warriors would trade Mitch Robinson for Wiseman straight up. They get a player that has a low priced option left but give up the higher upside player in the trade.

3) I don’t think the Warriors trade Wiggins for “nothing”, he has asset value even at 30mm. It’s just that positionally, they are better off getting a little bigger for that salary.

4) The Warriors would not swap 14 for 19 in a vacuum.

Here are reasons why they might do this as a whole:

1) They net 10mm on the Wiggins/Randle swap.
2) They net 4.55mm by giving up the 7 pick.
3) They net 8mm in the Robinson/Wiseman swap
4) They net 1mm in the 14/19 swap.

Some of these result in TPEs for them. They could use those to pick up guys like Montrezl Harrell, pulling assets from their conference competition.

They remove a strong competitor for Kelly Oubre from discussion. This increases their likelihood of keeping him using an exception.

The Knicks do this if they believe 2023 is really the next opportunity to sign Top 10 talent. They increase their chance of “developing” top 10 talent while making the most of Randle and Robinson’s contract. They remove the risk that Playoff Randle is actual Randle when the fans are back.

I loved Randle but don’t believe he will be the leader of a championship squad. There are too many forced shots from 18 feet. Almost the same criticism I had of Porzingis. If I knew we would add Kawhi Leonard to Julius Randle this offseason, I would not consider this move, but I’ve come to the conclusion that the talent level of this squad is still middle tier at best. I think the Hawks played really well, but a reinforced Nets team, an upgraded Milwaukee team, a reinvented Sixers squad, Miami, Chicago — a lot of these teams are ahead of the Knicks talent wise.

I think they need to strike while the iron is hot. I don’t believe Randle will have as high an asset value next year. I’m not sure it is reasonable to project further growth from Randle.

What did I say that didn't place value on Wiseman and pick #7? My point is we can do better. We also have a boatload of cap space and frankly I think NOW is the time to buy, not take a flyer on the #7 pick. I know Leon did a great job last year but what if we end up with another Kevin Knox? Everyone is talking like we are getting a surefire player with the #7 pick and I am saying that is insane, especially coming off of Covid season. This year is going to be one of the most challenging to evaluate players so NO THANK YOU

also, Thibs made it really clear that he doesn't want to lean on a lot of rookies.. what are we gonna fire the COY to hire someone to develop a bunch of rookies? really?

SupremeCommander wrote:

TheGame wrote:This is a bold strategy for the team, but the problem I see is timing IMO. Both Randle and Mitch are in the last year of their deals. GS would be giving up a lot for two guys they have to try and resign next summer to big contracts. Plus, Randle was only so so in the playoffs and Mitch has not proven he can stay healthy. I don’t think we could do a sign and trade until after FA starts, so the salary situation would be unknown until after the draft. I am not sure GS does that trade unless we added one or two more picks, but I agree they would at least consider it. From our perspective, Wiseman is solid but also unproven. I am not sure I even want Wiggins. We definitely want that pick from GS, and I believe in Toppin enough that I would like to see him get starters minutes. But this trade could set us back 2 years (as Wiseman and Toppin both need at least two more years of development), and I don’t see management making that type of move for a #7 pick, especially when the best two pgs are projected to already be off the board. I think our FO would be more interested in turning the 19 and 21 picks into something high enough to draft Davion Mitchell, who I think could be a longterm solution at PG.

the problem with this deal is we net 1 first round pick. if this is the course of action the Knicks take, they flip Mitch at the deadline for a first. Randle would probably get a better return than Morris at the deadline. So we flip the two best players in the deal to get Andrew 'I have a career PER of under 15 and I'll be making over $30 million next year' Wiggins and be awful next year. Yeah, let's tear it down and wait another 20 years to see a decent team ... 'Trust the proces', martin Hinkie

Then step up to the plate and offer up a variation on what you think both teams would want considering the outline I suggested.

I already indicated that the pick swaps were key and changeable. Make your change instead of just sitting on the sidelines.

martin wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

TheGame wrote:This is a bold strategy for the team, but the problem I see is timing IMO. Both Randle and Mitch are in the last year of their deals. GS would be giving up a lot for two guys they have to try and resign next summer to big contracts. Plus, Randle was only so so in the playoffs and Mitch has not proven he can stay healthy. I don’t think we could do a sign and trade until after FA starts, so the salary situation would be unknown until after the draft. I am not sure GS does that trade unless we added one or two more picks, but I agree they would at least consider it. From our perspective, Wiseman is solid but also unproven. I am not sure I even want Wiggins. We definitely want that pick from GS, and I believe in Toppin enough that I would like to see him get starters minutes. But this trade could set us back 2 years (as Wiseman and Toppin both need at least two more years of development), and I don’t see management making that type of move for a #7 pick, especially when the best two pgs are projected to already be off the board. I think our FO would be more interested in turning the 19 and 21 picks into something high enough to draft Davion Mitchell, who I think could be a longterm solution at PG.

the problem with this deal is we net 1 first round pick. if this is the course of action the Knicks take, they flip Mitch at the deadline for a first. Randle would probably get a better return than Morris at the deadline. So we flip the two best players in the deal to get Andrew 'I have a career PER of under 15 and I'll be making over $30 million next year' Wiggins and be awful next year. Yeah, let's tear it down and wait another 20 years to see a decent team ... 'Trust the proces', martin Hinkie

Then step up to the plate and offer up a variation on what you think both teams would want considering the outline I suggested.

I already indicated that the pick swaps were key and changeable. Make your change instead of just sitting on the sidelines.

it's up to me to figure out how to make your proposal work?

your entire trade idea is contingent on the Knicks identifying who would be worthy to be drafted at #7 or #14... maybe you should practice what you preach. We know who will be drafted 1-5. So, who would be available at #7 to make this deal worthwhile? or is that also up to me to me to figure out?

martin wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

martin wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

TheGame wrote:This is a bold strategy for the team, but the problem I see is timing IMO. Both Randle and Mitch are in the last year of their deals. GS would be giving up a lot for two guys they have to try and resign next summer to big contracts. Plus, Randle was only so so in the playoffs and Mitch has not proven he can stay healthy. I don’t think we could do a sign and trade until after FA starts, so the salary situation would be unknown until after the draft. I am not sure GS does that trade unless we added one or two more picks, but I agree they would at least consider it. From our perspective, Wiseman is solid but also unproven. I am not sure I even want Wiggins. We definitely want that pick from GS, and I believe in Toppin enough that I would like to see him get starters minutes. But this trade could set us back 2 years (as Wiseman and Toppin both need at least two more years of development), and I don’t see management making that type of move for a #7 pick, especially when the best two pgs are projected to already be off the board. I think our FO would be more interested in turning the 19 and 21 picks into something high enough to draft Davion Mitchell, who I think could be a longterm solution at PG.

the problem with this deal is we net 1 first round pick. if this is the course of action the Knicks take, they flip Mitch at the deadline for a first. Randle would probably get a better return than Morris at the deadline. So we flip the two best players in the deal to get Andrew 'I have a career PER of under 15 and I'll be making over $30 million next year' Wiggins and be awful next year. Yeah, let's tear it down and wait another 20 years to see a decent team ... 'Trust the proces', martin Hinkie

Then step up to the plate and offer up a variation on what you think both teams would want considering the outline I suggested.

I already indicated that the pick swaps were key and changeable. Make your change instead of just sitting on the sidelines.

it's up to me to figure out how to make your proposal work?

your entire trade idea is contingent on the Knicks identifying who would be worthy to be drafted at #7 or #14... maybe you should practice what you preach. We know who will be drafted 1-5. So, who would be available at #7 to make this deal worthwhile? or is that also up to me to me to figure out?

I already put up my thoughts on that and why.

preface with an absolute hedge:

martin wrote:Knicks scouting staff would have to convince me that there are 2 guys in the #7 and #14 who are consensus picks by the staff that will fulfill upside.

martin wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

martin wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

martin wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

TheGame wrote:This is a bold strategy for the team, but the problem I see is timing IMO. Both Randle and Mitch are in the last year of their deals. GS would be giving up a lot for two guys they have to try and resign next summer to big contracts. Plus, Randle was only so so in the playoffs and Mitch has not proven he can stay healthy. I don’t think we could do a sign and trade until after FA starts, so the salary situation would be unknown until after the draft. I am not sure GS does that trade unless we added one or two more picks, but I agree they would at least consider it. From our perspective, Wiseman is solid but also unproven. I am not sure I even want Wiggins. We definitely want that pick from GS, and I believe in Toppin enough that I would like to see him get starters minutes. But this trade could set us back 2 years (as Wiseman and Toppin both need at least two more years of development), and I don’t see management making that type of move for a #7 pick, especially when the best two pgs are projected to already be off the board. I think our FO would be more interested in turning the 19 and 21 picks into something high enough to draft Davion Mitchell, who I think could be a longterm solution at PG.

the problem with this deal is we net 1 first round pick. if this is the course of action the Knicks take, they flip Mitch at the deadline for a first. Randle would probably get a better return than Morris at the deadline. So we flip the two best players in the deal to get Andrew 'I have a career PER of under 15 and I'll be making over $30 million next year' Wiggins and be awful next year. Yeah, let's tear it down and wait another 20 years to see a decent team ... 'Trust the proces', martin Hinkie

Then step up to the plate and offer up a variation on what you think both teams would want considering the outline I suggested.

I already indicated that the pick swaps were key and changeable. Make your change instead of just sitting on the sidelines.

it's up to me to figure out how to make your proposal work?

your entire trade idea is contingent on the Knicks identifying who would be worthy to be drafted at #7 or #14... maybe you should practice what you preach. We know who will be drafted 1-5. So, who would be available at #7 to make this deal worthwhile? or is that also up to me to me to figure out?

I already put up my thoughts on that and why.

preface with an absolute hedge:

martin wrote:Knicks scouting staff would have to convince me that there are 2 guys in the #7 and #14 who are consensus picks by the staff that will fulfill upside.

it is and purposely so to show my line of thinking for myself and how I would engage. I absolutely staked my ground with Keon and Garuba and why for both. I'm not hiding any of my thoughts and put them all out there. The why's of both teams, the salary structure for why GS may want to, my lack of knowing anything about Wiseman.

So far I'm getting that you are limited to responses that are about this engaging

SupremeCommander wrote:ewwwwwwwwwwww I hate this trade

SupremeCommander wrote:'Trust the proces', martin Hinkie

I actually like Keon as a prospect but I think this deal is awful. You basically want to deal the first 20/10/5 player in franchise history for a wing who averaged 11ppg and and shot 27% from deep and a scratch off lotto ticket

SupremeCommander wrote:

martin wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

martin wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

martin wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

TheGame wrote:This is a bold strategy for the team, but the problem I see is timing IMO. Both Randle and Mitch are in the last year of their deals. GS would be giving up a lot for two guys they have to try and resign next summer to big contracts. Plus, Randle was only so so in the playoffs and Mitch has not proven he can stay healthy. I don’t think we could do a sign and trade until after FA starts, so the salary situation would be unknown until after the draft. I am not sure GS does that trade unless we added one or two more picks, but I agree they would at least consider it. From our perspective, Wiseman is solid but also unproven. I am not sure I even want Wiggins. We definitely want that pick from GS, and I believe in Toppin enough that I would like to see him get starters minutes. But this trade could set us back 2 years (as Wiseman and Toppin both need at least two more years of development), and I don’t see management making that type of move for a #7 pick, especially when the best two pgs are projected to already be off the board. I think our FO would be more interested in turning the 19 and 21 picks into something high enough to draft Davion Mitchell, who I think could be a longterm solution at PG.

the problem with this deal is we net 1 first round pick. if this is the course of action the Knicks take, they flip Mitch at the deadline for a first. Randle would probably get a better return than Morris at the deadline. So we flip the two best players in the deal to get Andrew 'I have a career PER of under 15 and I'll be making over $30 million next year' Wiggins and be awful next year. Yeah, let's tear it down and wait another 20 years to see a decent team ... 'Trust the proces', martin Hinkie

Then step up to the plate and offer up a variation on what you think both teams would want considering the outline I suggested.

I already indicated that the pick swaps were key and changeable. Make your change instead of just sitting on the sidelines.

it's up to me to figure out how to make your proposal work?

your entire trade idea is contingent on the Knicks identifying who would be worthy to be drafted at #7 or #14... maybe you should practice what you preach. We know who will be drafted 1-5. So, who would be available at #7 to make this deal worthwhile? or is that also up to me to me to figure out?

I already put up my thoughts on that and why.

preface with an absolute hedge:

martin wrote:Knicks scouting staff would have to convince me that there are 2 guys in the #7 and #14 who are consensus picks by the staff that will fulfill upside.

it is and purposely so to show my line of thinking for myself and how I would engage. I absolutely staked my ground with Keon and Garuba and why for both. I'm not hiding any of my thoughts and put them all out there. The why's of both teams, the salary structure for why GS may want to, my lack of knowing anything about Wiseman.

So far I'm getting that you are limited to responses that are about this engaging

SupremeCommander wrote:ewwwwwwwwwwww I hate this trade

SupremeCommander wrote:'Trust the proces', martin Hinkie

I actually like Keon as a prospect but I think this deal is awful. You basically want to deal the first 20/10/5 player in franchise history for a wing who averaged 11ppg and and shot 27% from deep and a scratch off lotto ticket

No.

I want to reset the foundation and talent level for the Knicks around guys that are 19-23 and 2 guys at #7, #14 as well as Wiseman (#2 last year) who the organization thinks fit the modern game and who fit with an all-out defensive style of play that matches Thib's intensity. Keon's 3point shooting numbers were about as good as Donovan Mitchell's in his freshman year and I'm projecting that Keon's athleticism, breakdown ability, and shooting stroke are good enough to build upon (IMO he is different, skinnier type of DWade). I'm also drafting a 6'8" behemoth who is fast enough to guard 1-5 and has been playing in a man's league since 15 years old and succeeding. His deep shooting is also not there yet at 19 years old but he has just started to take and make more 3's; I think his shooting form is good enough and workable. Both buys are absolute DEMONS on D and all out hustle players and that to me kinds/sorta translates to guys who are workers. I feel like both are enough of ball movers.

Moving Randle also has a side effect of giving Obi more opportunities. I'm not Obi's biggest fan but I want to give him more space to succeed and see what he has got.

I think the team can use cap space to buy a PF and PG to solidify a rotation that can complete but who will absolutely struggle initially. I think the coaching staff will have their work cut out for them but have enough clay to really stay engaged.

Barrett becomes more prominent; let's see what he has to give the franchise with more focus.

In 2 years you have super flexibility to do anything - you are literally OKC level cap space (minus Kemba) - enough draft capital for 2022, 2023 to build out further.