martin wrote:And what impact would those changes have had on the last weeks or month of the games? Are you suggesting that during a historic game winning run the coach should have out smarted himself and thought about what *MAY* happen during the playoffs?

All of this while forgetting we were projected to only win 20 something games this season.

blkexec wrote:

Nalod wrote:

blkexec wrote:As much as I talked bad about Payton....I appreciate how professional he was with his demotion without being a locker room cancer. This has nothing to do with Payton. But more to do with fit. Payton is an old dog not willing to learn new tricks. He is who we thought he was. I dont think he was a good fit on this team. Hope he finds success elsewhere. Great slasher and finisher overall. Better at attacking the rim than I thought. Personally I didn't know his shooting was that bad, and I thought his defense was better. But he was still a professional on and off the court.

How was he a bad fit with our success? To have bought in another guard might have cost us in another area. Its easy to say the team would be better with an upgrade. Its obvious. But to do that comes at not having Burkes, bullock or Rose? They contributed also to what was a great season.
Of course he is flawed. He is paid like a scrub and what ever he did he helped and never detracted from the over all result.

For that I have appreciation. Not a long term contract and a big raise. Just a “thumbs up”.

Point taken....Hes a bad fit as a starter for this team...Due to the lack of consistent shooters around him and terrible floor spacing in the paint. Hes not a bad fit in general. Now if we had a center that shoots 3s and a SF who's a shooter and not just a slasher, we probably wouldn't even have this thread. Payton, RJ and Randle need space to operate. RJ and Randle are cornerstone pieces, so Payton takes the blame. In reality you can point the finger at the FO or Thibs who put this starting 5 together. It's not Paytons fault. He did what he was supposed to do and what he's done his entire career. I believe the starting 5 lineup exposed Paytons weakness. A good coach knows how to hide weaknesses and increase strengths. Glad coach got COY, but he's at fault for putting this starting 5 together, without making adjustments sooner. Vs waiting until the playoffs.

Elf just sucks. He’s a bad fit anywhere. Literally the only thing he does well is dribble.

If he and Rose are both back next season we probably don’t even make the playoffs. This is Raymond Felton all over again we must move on

blkexec wrote:

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Nalod wrote:

blkexec wrote:As much as I talked bad about Payton....I appreciate how professional he was with his demotion without being a locker room cancer. This has nothing to do with Payton. But more to do with fit. Payton is an old dog not willing to learn new tricks. He is who we thought he was. I dont think he was a good fit on this team. Hope he finds success elsewhere. Great slasher and finisher overall. Better at attacking the rim than I thought. Personally I didn't know his shooting was that bad, and I thought his defense was better. But he was still a professional on and off the court.

How was he a bad fit with our success? To have bought in another guard might have cost us in another area. Its easy to say the team would be better with an upgrade. Its obvious. But to do that comes at not having Burkes, bullock or Rose? They contributed also to what was a great season.
Of course he is flawed. He is paid like a scrub and what ever he did he helped and never detracted from the over all result.

For that I have appreciation. Not a long term contract and a big raise. Just a “thumbs up”.

Point taken....Hes a bad fit as a starter for this team...Due to the lack of consistent shooters around him and terrible floor spacing in the paint. Hes not a bad fit in general. Now if we had a center that shoots 3s and a SF who's a shooter and not just a slasher, we probably wouldn't even have this thread. Payton, RJ and Randle need space to operate. RJ and Randle are cornerstone pieces, so Payton takes the blame. In reality you can point the finger at the FO or Thibs who put this starting 5 together. It's not Paytons fault. He did what he was supposed to do and what he's done his entire career. I believe the starting 5 lineup exposed Paytons weakness. A good coach knows how to hide weaknesses and increase strengths. Glad coach got COY, but he's at fault for putting this starting 5 together, without making adjustments sooner. Vs waiting until the playoffs.

I literally don't understand any of the bolded statements.

"lack of consistent shooters around him and terrible floor spacing in the paint." Are you talking first half of year versus second? Cause the Knicks surely had plenty of consistent shooters. In fact they had enough of them to be considered one of the best spacing shooting teams in the league near the end. You have three 40% 3 point shooters, a center who is hidden in the dunking position and then Payton for starting lineup.

"Now if we had a center that shoots 3s and a SF who's a shooter and not just a slasher, we probably wouldn't even have this thread." And I don't get the qualification that you ALSO need either 4 or 5 shooters just to have enough paint room. No team has that. And there are only a few C's in the league that can space the 5. And I don't know who you consider the SF who is just a slasher and not a shooter? Bullock started at SF and the Knicks used a 3 guard rotation of Burks, IQ, Rose off bench.

"I believe the starting 5 lineup exposed Paytons weakness." How do you qualify this? Payton just stopped making shots he previously hit and was lackadaisical on D. Payton exposed Payton.

"Glad coach got COY, but he's at fault for putting this starting 5 together, without making adjustments sooner. Vs waiting until the playoffs." On one hand Thibs over performed and needed until the VERY LAST GAME OF THE YEAR to get the 4th seed but you wanted him to perhaps change the lineup much sooner WHEN THEY WERE WINNING THE MOST GAMES IN THE LEAGUE during a 3 week stretch? That takes a lot to swallow. Thibs (and all of us) could already SEE the adjustment as Elf's minutes declined and Rose's increased. Otherwise, what are the viable options? And what impact would those changes have had on the last weeks or month of the games? Are you suggesting that during a historic game winning run the coach should have out smarted himself and thought about what *MAY* happen during the playoffs?

If I was on a computer I would enjoy replying to each phrase you eloquently broke down. It's hard to understand if you are suggesting we should keep Payton at PG next season or not. Do you agree he should be replaced this summer? My reply will only go down 1 of my 2 assumptions.

So let's assume you are against Payton returning as our starting pg. Then we agree there. If not, I'm curious 🤔 why?

Where we disagree maybe is when I thought Payton should've been replaced, if he's going to get replaced at all.....vs what thibs did is replace him in the playoffs. If u disagree with this, I would love to hear your reply.

If we agree on that too...then you grossly misunderstood my post. 😃

Literally no one on the planet thinks Payton should return next year. Seems as if you are talking about this past season but perhaps it was the perspective of what should for next year? I just don't understand any of what you are saying quite frankly.

To your second point, I question the hindsight (and maybe it's not from you) look at saying Payton should have been replaced earlier in the season. When? And what would have been the realities of changing the dynamic of the team and rotations and offense/defense that would have made the change worthwhile?

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Nalod wrote:

blkexec wrote:As much as I talked bad about Payton....I appreciate how professional he was with his demotion without being a locker room cancer. This has nothing to do with Payton. But more to do with fit. Payton is an old dog not willing to learn new tricks. He is who we thought he was. I dont think he was a good fit on this team. Hope he finds success elsewhere. Great slasher and finisher overall. Better at attacking the rim than I thought. Personally I didn't know his shooting was that bad, and I thought his defense was better. But he was still a professional on and off the court.

How was he a bad fit with our success? To have bought in another guard might have cost us in another area. Its easy to say the team would be better with an upgrade. Its obvious. But to do that comes at not having Burkes, bullock or Rose? They contributed also to what was a great season.
Of course he is flawed. He is paid like a scrub and what ever he did he helped and never detracted from the over all result.

For that I have appreciation. Not a long term contract and a big raise. Just a “thumbs up”.

Point taken....Hes a bad fit as a starter for this team...Due to the lack of consistent shooters around him and terrible floor spacing in the paint. Hes not a bad fit in general. Now if we had a center that shoots 3s and a SF who's a shooter and not just a slasher, we probably wouldn't even have this thread. Payton, RJ and Randle need space to operate. RJ and Randle are cornerstone pieces, so Payton takes the blame. In reality you can point the finger at the FO or Thibs who put this starting 5 together. It's not Paytons fault. He did what he was supposed to do and what he's done his entire career. I believe the starting 5 lineup exposed Paytons weakness. A good coach knows how to hide weaknesses and increase strengths. Glad coach got COY, but he's at fault for putting this starting 5 together, without making adjustments sooner. Vs waiting until the playoffs.

I literally don't understand any of the bolded statements.

"lack of consistent shooters around him and terrible floor spacing in the paint." Are you talking first half of year versus second? Cause the Knicks surely had plenty of consistent shooters. In fact they had enough of them to be considered one of the best spacing shooting teams in the league near the end. You have three 40% 3 point shooters, a center who is hidden in the dunking position and then Payton for starting lineup.

"Now if we had a center that shoots 3s and a SF who's a shooter and not just a slasher, we probably wouldn't even have this thread." And I don't get the qualification that you ALSO need either 4 or 5 shooters just to have enough paint room. No team has that. And there are only a few C's in the league that can space the 5. And I don't know who you consider the SF who is just a slasher and not a shooter? Bullock started at SF and the Knicks used a 3 guard rotation of Burks, IQ, Rose off bench.

"I believe the starting 5 lineup exposed Paytons weakness." How do you qualify this? Payton just stopped making shots he previously hit and was lackadaisical on D. Payton exposed Payton.

"Glad coach got COY, but he's at fault for putting this starting 5 together, without making adjustments sooner. Vs waiting until the playoffs." On one hand Thibs over performed and needed until the VERY LAST GAME OF THE YEAR to get the 4th seed but you wanted him to perhaps change the lineup much sooner WHEN THEY WERE WINNING THE MOST GAMES IN THE LEAGUE during a 3 week stretch? That takes a lot to swallow. Thibs (and all of us) could already SEE the adjustment as Elf's minutes declined and Rose's increased. Otherwise, what are the viable options? And what impact would those changes have had on the last weeks or month of the games? Are you suggesting that during a historic game winning run the coach should have out smarted himself and thought about what *MAY* happen during the playoffs?

If I was on a computer I would enjoy replying to each phrase you eloquently broke down. It's hard to understand if you are suggesting we should keep Payton at PG next season or not. Do you agree he should be replaced this summer? My reply will only go down 1 of my 2 assumptions.

So let's assume you are against Payton returning as our starting pg. Then we agree there. If not, I'm curious 🤔 why?

Where we disagree maybe is when I thought Payton should've been replaced, if he's going to get replaced at all.....vs what thibs did is replace him in the playoffs. If u disagree with this, I would love to hear your reply.

If we agree on that too...then you grossly misunderstood my post. 😃

Literally no one on the planet thinks Payton should return next year. Seems as if you are talking about this past season but perhaps it was the perspective of what should for next year? I just don't understand any of what you are saying quite frankly.

To your second point, I question the hindsight (and maybe it's not from you) look at saying Payton should have been replaced earlier in the season. When? And what would have been the realities of changing the dynamic of the team and rotations and offense/defense that would have made the change worthwhile?

Yep.. you mis understood my position. All good. But I'll say this again, if Thibs is going to replace Payton at all, don't replace him in the playoffs, it's too late and too risky of a move, which is now clear to everyone. Granted most people approved the move since Rose came in second half and saved the game. But Rose did this all season. Thibs had plenty of times to experiment with Payton starting or coming off the bench. That's all I'm saying.

When could he have removed Payton during the season you asked? I don't know. I'm not looking that deep into last season anymore. Im just appreciating Payton for coming in and doing what he's been known for,, while not being a locker room problem... But there was opportunities better than in the playoffs, to experiment. That was a desperation move that most fans and the media was pushing.

Im sure u approved the Rose starting over Payton move in the playoffs. It's hard to find people to admit it now of course. I will admit it. But I'm not the coach making millions. Thibs gets paid for these decisions and I fault him for that decision and adding fault to his non decision during the season, when it was clear that Payton started to check out. Was inconsistent, team played better with him on the bench...the signs was there. Thibs waited too long to finally do something he wanted to do earlier, probably after seeing Rose and IQ impact on the floor. He tried it once with Burks who's a SG. That's a negative on Thibs as well. Even i wasn't for that move. And he quickly went back to Payton. Did Frank ever start? Thibs just appeared a little too loyal to Payton starting, eventhough he rarely saw the second half. What's the pt in that when we have other PGs on the roster outside of Rose to experiment with...Burks is not a PG.

Again, thank you Payton for being who you are. I don't think he's a starter in the nba anymore, but i could be wrong....on a new team with different players around him he could excel.. depending on the system and space on the floor. Maybe an up and down west coast system works better than a half court 1990s thibs offensive system. 🤔

xblvdels3 wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Nalod wrote:

blkexec wrote:As much as I talked bad about Payton....I appreciate how professional he was with his demotion without being a locker room cancer. This has nothing to do with Payton. But more to do with fit. Payton is an old dog not willing to learn new tricks. He is who we thought he was. I dont think he was a good fit on this team. Hope he finds success elsewhere. Great slasher and finisher overall. Better at attacking the rim than I thought. Personally I didn't know his shooting was that bad, and I thought his defense was better. But he was still a professional on and off the court.

How was he a bad fit with our success? To have bought in another guard might have cost us in another area. Its easy to say the team would be better with an upgrade. Its obvious. But to do that comes at not having Burkes, bullock or Rose? They contributed also to what was a great season.
Of course he is flawed. He is paid like a scrub and what ever he did he helped and never detracted from the over all result.

For that I have appreciation. Not a long term contract and a big raise. Just a “thumbs up”.

Point taken....Hes a bad fit as a starter for this team...Due to the lack of consistent shooters around him and terrible floor spacing in the paint. Hes not a bad fit in general. Now if we had a center that shoots 3s and a SF who's a shooter and not just a slasher, we probably wouldn't even have this thread. Payton, RJ and Randle need space to operate. RJ and Randle are cornerstone pieces, so Payton takes the blame. In reality you can point the finger at the FO or Thibs who put this starting 5 together. It's not Paytons fault. He did what he was supposed to do and what he's done his entire career. I believe the starting 5 lineup exposed Paytons weakness. A good coach knows how to hide weaknesses and increase strengths. Glad coach got COY, but he's at fault for putting this starting 5 together, without making adjustments sooner. Vs waiting until the playoffs.

Elf just sucks. He’s a bad fit anywhere. Literally the only thing he does well is dribble.

If he and Rose are both back next season we probably don’t even make the playoffs. This is Raymond Felton all over again we must move on

Raymond Felton wasn’t bad. Just a tad overweight lol

He had a nice 18 foot jumper

Probably top 3 pgs of the decade lol for us before this year

Yep. At his best, Felton was a top 15 of and a borderline All-star. Just had too many problems off the court with food and women.

Chandler wrote:Not wishing Ill will it will appreciate his departure

He is at core a selfish player. We saw it last year when he was more interested in playing 2 man game w Julius

I suspect this year he started as long as he did bc thibs was also trying to manage egos. The fact that he wasn’t finishing games even though he was a supposed defensive player is telling. Why was that? I suspect because his FT sucked, has sucked, and will continue to suck. Whose fault is that?

Literally every other Knick got better in some identifiable way as the season progressed except him

Selfish? If so that’s on coach who can’t control his PG?

But, 10games over .500 speaks louder than anything. Do you get there without him?
Rivers didn’t take us there and one can argue he a better player. Sometimes right guy at the time.
Appreciate the moment. Not saying we need more.