Moonangie wrote:

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:THESE ARE FACTS WE JUST WITNESS

“The playoffs are nothing like the regular season,” Myers said. “They are two completely different sports.”

Myers went on for more chilling remarks considering the depth of Randle’s struggles in the playoffs when he shot 29.8 percent (33.3 percent from 3).

“Whatever they know (a star) does well, is gone,” Myers said. “Even shooters. … That two feet of space in the regular season is two inches. Watch how many players cannot make a shot in the playoffs and shoot 42 percent (Randle’s percentage) in the regular season. It’s not the same thing. Why does that matter? The more dimensions you have to your game the harder you are to take away. You watch the playoffs you know who can play basketball. That’s when you evaluate players.”

I'm also going to add, the knicks benefited more from having no fans, because we played shell shock in our last 2 home games and did not feed off the energy of the fans.

Thibs got exposed for having such a closed mind with his rotations...Benching Payton, Knox and frank, was pretty narrow minded IMO

Even with Payton struggling(still a much better defender than 32 yr old rose), we won games with the bench and a much fresher Rose.

blame it Thibs for getting run out as teh 4th seed is shallow.
who is “Myers”? This Pete Myers? Oscar Myers? This the Rainman gig of “since i have no cred let me reprint something I agree with and be thought of as a good basketball mind”.
Not. cite our source or link it. your omitting the rest of the content denies us the ability to see that comment in its proper context. Then we can agree with it or not.

Most of fans were crying for thibs to take out Payton. He did.
we were crying or him to make adjustments. He did.
It did not work. But he did.
We assume change will bring improvement. Not always.
Why was it assumed we were going to win? Cuz we beat them and Randle went off. Fans expectation. Hating media were spot on to say “ATL has more talent”.
Thibs is lauded for not trying things in the playoffs. Perhaps acts of desperation should be attempted but reality is its very unlikely.

Plus this...

Why can't this year's playoff experience be a stepping-stone to future success. In NYC, it's achieve or GTFO. But in life, that's a fools' paradise. How long have we suffered? DECADES. Let this season be what it actually is...a learning experience. Players grow...especially those in their 20s. Players learn and adapt. NYK will be back next season, maybe not a 4 seed, but we'll be in the playoffs. And we will bring with us our insights from the past two weeks. And we will grow from it.

Thibs understands this...he recognizes that the glass is indeed half FULL. So will other, better players. The league will now take notice because unlike 1248, they aren't committed to whining.

who's whining

I posted an article that quoted Warriors GM'S take on the PLAYOFF basketball, and you called that whining..

Randle played 5 horrible games and pretty much gave us no shot to win, thats been well documented in the NBA world today.

how many bad performances did Paul George have in the playoffs, he certainly didn't get better after his first playoff disaster

Playoff basketball is where stars are born, it's just that's simple.

This was 22 yr old Trae Youngs first playoff series, 21 yr Ja morant drop 47, Doncic is 20 yrs old and killing it.

Both Thibs(ran his players to the ground) and randle(played like a rookie trying to make a name) resorted to the things that got them traded and fired in the past.

knicks1248 wrote:

Moonangie wrote:

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:THESE ARE FACTS WE JUST WITNESS

“The playoffs are nothing like the regular season,” Myers said. “They are two completely different sports.”

Myers went on for more chilling remarks considering the depth of Randle’s struggles in the playoffs when he shot 29.8 percent (33.3 percent from 3).

“Whatever they know (a star) does well, is gone,” Myers said. “Even shooters. … That two feet of space in the regular season is two inches. Watch how many players cannot make a shot in the playoffs and shoot 42 percent (Randle’s percentage) in the regular season. It’s not the same thing. Why does that matter? The more dimensions you have to your game the harder you are to take away. You watch the playoffs you know who can play basketball. That’s when you evaluate players.”

I'm also going to add, the knicks benefited more from having no fans, because we played shell shock in our last 2 home games and did not feed off the energy of the fans.

Thibs got exposed for having such a closed mind with his rotations...Benching Payton, Knox and frank, was pretty narrow minded IMO

Even with Payton struggling(still a much better defender than 32 yr old rose), we won games with the bench and a much fresher Rose.

blame it Thibs for getting run out as teh 4th seed is shallow.
who is “Myers”? This Pete Myers? Oscar Myers? This the Rainman gig of “since i have no cred let me reprint something I agree with and be thought of as a good basketball mind”.
Not. cite our source or link it. your omitting the rest of the content denies us the ability to see that comment in its proper context. Then we can agree with it or not.

Most of fans were crying for thibs to take out Payton. He did.
we were crying or him to make adjustments. He did.
It did not work. But he did.
We assume change will bring improvement. Not always.
Why was it assumed we were going to win? Cuz we beat them and Randle went off. Fans expectation. Hating media were spot on to say “ATL has more talent”.
Thibs is lauded for not trying things in the playoffs. Perhaps acts of desperation should be attempted but reality is its very unlikely.

Plus this...

Why can't this year's playoff experience be a stepping-stone to future success. In NYC, it's achieve or GTFO. But in life, that's a fools' paradise. How long have we suffered? DECADES. Let this season be what it actually is...a learning experience. Players grow...especially those in their 20s. Players learn and adapt. NYK will be back next season, maybe not a 4 seed, but we'll be in the playoffs. And we will bring with us our insights from the past two weeks. And we will grow from it.

Thibs understands this...he recognizes that the glass is indeed half FULL. So will other, better players. The league will now take notice because unlike 1248, they aren't committed to whining.

who's whining

I posted an article that quoted Warriors GM'S take on the PLAYOFF basketball, and you called that whining..

Randle played 5 horrible games and pretty much gave us no shot to win, thats been well documented in the NBA world today.

how many bad performances did Paul George have in the playoffs, he certainly didn't get better after his first playoff disaster

Playoff basketball is where stars are born, it's just that's simple.

This was 22 yr old Trae Youngs first playoff series, 21 yr Ja morant drop 47, Doncic is 20 yrs old and killing it.

Both Thibs(ran his players to the ground) and randle(played like a rookie trying to make a name) resorted to the things that got them traded and fired in the past.

I trust our players are more resilient than our fans and will work to get better versus thinking if you're bad the first time you're going to be bad the rest of your life.

Geez.

Philc1 wrote:

MS wrote:Honestly, Randle just sucked. It had nothing to do with having no help.

Burks carried us in game 1, Rose in game 3.

Randle had his head down and was dribbling into traffic every single play. He didn't want to shoot the ball, everything was a pump fake into a jump pass. He looked exactly like the player everyone wanted off the team in the playoffs. He didn't play big. He killed the offense at every turn. You can't build any momentum when your best player is launching off balanced three pointers and making momentum killing turnovers.

Randle looked a lot like 2019-2020 Randle the guy who shot below 30% from three and was dribbling off his foot driving to the basket. It’s troubling because I wonder if that’s the real guy

So if Payton came out of nowhere and had 5 great playoff games, would you discount what he did during the regular season and wonder if the 5 games is "who he really is?"

Welpee wrote:So the guy works his butt off during the offseason, elevates his game to all-NBA performance and MVP consideration for 72 games, and has five bad playoff games and that may be an indication of who he "really is?"

So if Payton came out of nowhere and had 5 great playoff games, would you discount what he did during the regular season and wonder if the 5 games is "who he really is?"

Randle had 375 games played and over 10 thousand plus minutes played before this season. In the five full seasons before this, his career arc is entirely different.

If you don't want people to judge the last five games, you can't ignore the first five seasons. If you want context, you need ALL OF IT.

Logical questions about potential and likely regression next season by Randle is being treated as some kind of attack on his hard work and success this year.

You can both APPRECIATE what Randle did this year WHILE ALSO recognizing that these kind of leaps in production are usually not sustainable over the long haul.

If you want people to stop asking questions about your career, then you should have played at this level your entire career. That's on Randle. But he didn't. He sucked ass his first year with the Knicks. I won't discount his hard work and success this year but I also won't discount his previous struggles in the NBA before he was a Knick.

ESOMKnicks wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

Randle had 375 games played and over 10 thousand plus minutes played before this season. In the five full seasons before this, his career arc is entirely different.

If you don't want people to judge the last five games, you can't ignore the first five seasons. If you want context, you need ALL OF IT.

Logical questions about potential and likely regression next season by Randle is being treated as some kind of attack on his hard work and success this year.

You can both APPRECIATE what Randle did this year WHILE ALSO recognizing that these kind of leaps in production are usually not sustainable over the long haul.

If you want people to stop asking questions about your career, then you should have played at this level your entire career. That's on Randle. But he didn't. He sucked ass his first year with the Knicks. I won't discount his hard work and success this year but I also won't discount his previous struggles in the NBA before he was a Knick.

This is all very true and nice, but as a practical matter, what do you do next? I doubt there is a trade of Randle out there that improves the team. Do we then re-sign him to the max, if we feel he is not worth the max? Do we try to get him to accept a lower offer? But then we risk losing him for nothing to another team, willing to offer him more, and we know that teams have been silly with humongous contracts, through good times and bad. Then what? Go back to square one and build just around RJ? After whiffing on a high draft pick in a generational draft?

I have said this a gazillion times before and will say it again: the Knicks have totally jumped the gun in trying to be "relevant" this season. And from here on, the team has no other choice but to follow through with the Randle Era for the next 4-5 years. Does he have it in him to step it up even more and become the same force in the playoffs as he has been during the regular season lately? Possibly. Do we have hope that the team can make the next leap forward via a smart FA signing, some of the younger players improving significantly, or finding a diamond in the rough in the later stages of the draft? Also possible. But we may need to brace ourselves for an era of mediocrity too. And in my view, this is the most probable trajectory from here on.

The extension he can get this summer is 4 years at 104-108mil. I have seen both figures floated. That locks him here for 5 years. At that figure he is not paid super max. Now if he really believes in the next level on a team that might have more options and potentially dilutes his touches thats his decision. If not from us where can he get that kind of cheddar? The extenson this summer makes him a tradable commodity down the road if he is healthy and lives to that kind of contact which is not unreasonable. Super max might be a stretch.

Good news. Knicks might have made a nice surge but did so without mortgaging the future as we did in 2013. Not that Barganani killed us as the subsequent pick did not yield a “star” but that team retired 5 players and we did not have any foundation to build on. Our athletes of JR and Shump never grew beyond a certain level. This year we have the noted picks, cap space, a 20 year old stud in the making, A borderline foundational all star and a few rookies to already implement on the floor or as trade asset. With Valdoza we have a sort of “euro stash” coming on board. His contact gets guaranteed ONLY if he makes the opening day roaster. This kid has a busy summer ahead of him! He is also on the argentine Olympic team.
If we do nothing but repeat our 4th or 5th seeding next year yet bring in new talent with a forward bias would be more than a success in my expectations. I can’t speak for others. MY opinion much of the season disappointments are from bloated expectations and emotions controlling our fingers of what we type.

ESOMKnicks wrote:
This is all very true and nice, but as a practical matter, what do you do next? I doubt there is a trade of Randle out there that improves the team. Do we then re-sign him to the max, if we feel he is not worth the max? Do we try to get him to accept a lower offer? But then we risk losing him for nothing to another team, willing to offer him more, and we know that teams have been silly with humongous contracts, through good times and bad. Then what? Go back to square one and build just around RJ? After whiffing on a high draft pick in a generational draft?

What Brock Aller will say to do, based on the best market place decision given the time and place, is to pick up Randle's team option ( he's earned it, I'll give him complete credit for that. ) and then wait and see what happens while the team accrues his Full Bird Rights. Aller will come up with a projection on Randle's future. Will it be an absolute? No, nothing is certain Will it be strong odds of bearing out as he projects? Yes. NBA progression and production trends curve a certain way for a reason.

The reality is Randle is likely better than his first Knicks season but not quite as good as this season. Somewhere in the middle. I believe that's a fair and rational stance given basic resource management in the NBA. The other issue is Randle will likely give you his "this season" in spurts, and give you his "first Knicks season" also in spurts. That doesn't preclude him from potentially being offered a max deal, but he's likely, at most, a "market max player" and not a "franchise max" player.

For example, John Wall is a market max player. He fills the stands and you can build your marketing around him and he can drive you hopefully into the playoffs. But won't win a ring with him and his inconsistency and limitations will make his contract choke out your ability to build a contender around him. He'll help you into a first round or even a rare 2nd round playoff exit but never pull you over the top since you are now a glorified treadmill team.

Steph Curry, Doncic, Jokic, AD, formerly prime Durant and LBJ, those are franchise max players They will help you win a ring and you can still gain all the business side benefits of a market max type player.

What the Knicks should do

1) Pick up the team option
2) Keep trying to amass assets and find good value bargain signings. Try to win in the draft process
3) Evaluate Randle over another full season.
4) Based on the price/AAV/contract total assessed, then consider offering that to Randle if you believe his "middle" trend will lean more this year than his first year. If he won't take it, then consider trading him at the deadline.
5) If you can't trade him at the deadline, hope you can sign and trade him, with his Full Bird Rights, to another team to get something versus nothing
6) If you can't get a sign and trade, you let him walk. Better to let him walk than overpay him against market.

What the Knicks should do to win the most games may or may not be what Leon Rose does or does not do. To be fair, Aller only has to worry about wins in isolation from other business realities. Rose has to think about TV contracts, sponsorships, MSG as a whole, agent interaction, dealing with the league office, keeping Dolan happy, etc, etc.

Do I personally believe Randle is "franchise max" player? No

Do I personally believe Randle is a "market max" player? No

Do I think Randle will regress next season? Yes

Do I think Randle will regress to his horrible first Knicks season baseline? No

This is NOT a decision that needs to be made today. So then the Knicks don't need to make it today. Or even this offseason.

If Randle ends up walking in FA for nothing, what did the Knicks lose. They got him for open cap space, got some solid use out of him, and then he's gone. Certainly I would prefer to get something over nothing, but the Knicks should not feel forced to make a decision because they are afraid they can't find anyone else or draft anyone else worthy otherwise. That's not how successful franchises think. The great teams believe no matter what happens, they'll adjust and keep on trucking forward.

Sit, wait, be patient, observe and be ready to strike. That's it. That's all the front office needs to do.

Welpee wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

MS wrote:Honestly, Randle just sucked. It had nothing to do with having no help.

Burks carried us in game 1, Rose in game 3.

Randle had his head down and was dribbling into traffic every single play. He didn't want to shoot the ball, everything was a pump fake into a jump pass. He looked exactly like the player everyone wanted off the team in the playoffs. He didn't play big. He killed the offense at every turn. You can't build any momentum when your best player is launching off balanced three pointers and making momentum killing turnovers.

Randle looked a lot like 2019-2020 Randle the guy who shot below 30% from three and was dribbling off his foot driving to the basket. It’s troubling because I wonder if that’s the real guy

So the guy works his butt off during the offseason, elevates his game to all-NBA performance and MVP consideration for 72 games, and has five bad playoff games and that may be an indication of who he "really is?"

So if Payton came out of nowhere and had 5 great playoff games, would you discount what he did during the regular season and wonder if the 5 games is "who he really is?"

Why is it so outrageous to wonder if this regular season for Randle was an aberration?

Because it's based off of 5 games. Look, I will be the first to say I would like to see what Randle does next season before making a decision on a long term deal for him. I get that. Why commit now if you don't have to. I would like to wait and see how the front office continues to develop the roster and how Randle fits in.

But to discredit the work this guy put in during the off season and essentially speculate if it's a fluke, especially a player on the team you supposedly root for? One thing the Knick "fans" consistently do is disparage their own players while constantly gassing up players on other teams and it gets frustrating.

So yes, I think it's a massive overreaction to a bad 5 game playoff series. Of course, anything is possible. You could be absolutely right or this could be the beginning of a string of all-NBA caliber seasons.

It’s based off 5 very important games

My concern is Randle ends up being another Vin Baker. A regular season stat stuffer who does nothing in the playoffs

Philc1 wrote:

TheGame wrote:Thibs did not adjust Randle’s game and Thibs should have given Frank at least one extended game to see how effective he could be against young. Putting Frank in on the last play cold against Young was not a true test of his effectiveness, and once he decided Payton was garbage and it became clear Rose and Quickley could do nothing against Trae, he should have given Frank an extended 10 minute look on him. He also should have gotten Rose, Bullock, and Randle into some pick and rolls. I know Atlanta’s zone created problems, but Thibbs did not put nearly enough pressure on Trae to force him to defend. They basically hid Trae on Bullock, who put no pressure on Trae to defend.

Benching the team’s best perimeter player facing Trae and Gallo setting moving picks the entire series. Yeah, not good

Philc1 wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

MS wrote:Honestly, Randle just sucked. It had nothing to do with having no help.

Burks carried us in game 1, Rose in game 3.

Randle had his head down and was dribbling into traffic every single play. He didn't want to shoot the ball, everything was a pump fake into a jump pass. He looked exactly like the player everyone wanted off the team in the playoffs. He didn't play big. He killed the offense at every turn. You can't build any momentum when your best player is launching off balanced three pointers and making momentum killing turnovers.

Randle looked a lot like 2019-2020 Randle the guy who shot below 30% from three and was dribbling off his foot driving to the basket. It’s troubling because I wonder if that’s the real guy

So the guy works his butt off during the offseason, elevates his game to all-NBA performance and MVP consideration for 72 games, and has five bad playoff games and that may be an indication of who he "really is?"

So if Payton came out of nowhere and had 5 great playoff games, would you discount what he did during the regular season and wonder if the 5 games is "who he really is?"

Why is it so outrageous to wonder if this regular season for Randle was an aberration?

Because it's based off of 5 games. Look, I will be the first to say I would like to see what Randle does next season before making a decision on a long term deal for him. I get that. Why commit now if you don't have to. I would like to wait and see how the front office continues to develop the roster and how Randle fits in.

But to discredit the work this guy put in during the off season and essentially speculate if it's a fluke, especially a player on the team you supposedly root for? One thing the Knick "fans" consistently do is disparage their own players while constantly gassing up players on other teams and it gets frustrating.

So yes, I think it's a massive overreaction to a bad 5 game playoff series. Of course, anything is possible. You could be absolutely right or this could be the beginning of a string of all-NBA caliber seasons.

It’s based off 5 very important games

My concern is Randle ends up being another Vin Baker. A regular season stat stuffer who does nothing in the playoffs