Nalod wrote:We all saying the same thing. His stature is evident as noted. End of his contract and about end of the bench. I’m not in denial.....
In Thibs world the kid got chances. All iM saying is I take no pleasure to predict what is all apparent.
Thibs does prioritize defense to say frank does not exist is not accurate.

You are in denial.

Frank N is not getting minutes here. He's not because he doesn't produce and Thibs doesn't trust him. If your coach doesn't trust you, then you are done with that team.

Same issue I've discussed with Toppin. You want more minutes? Make the most out of the minutes you do get and play in a way where no one can take you off the floor.

Frank N needs to go to a team where he's going to get minutes and a fresh start. Also, as stated, his Birds Rights clock will need to be reset since the Knicks are going to renounce his rights to remove his cap hold in the critical early stages of free agency. Another team might sign and trade for him, but the odds of that are pretty low at this point.

Sometimes you just need to move on from a player. If he wanted to stay a Knick, he should have produced to the point where a contract extension offer was a no brainer. He's had years and years to work on his three point shot. How much better is that shot today than when he started his first year?

Again, this is why I keep bringing up Jeremy Lin. He spent a lot of time on the bench for the GSW and other teams. He had energy and time to spare so he relentlessly put in work. Frank N had the time and money and opportunity to hone his three point shot. Do you see him sitting on Drew Hanlon's front door begging for time in the gym? Do you see him traveling the world and country trying to learn his craft and seek more knowledge and train with guys who can help him develop?

Everything you need to know about Frank N starts and ends when you see him hand off the ball and just sort of jog around the court. Work your ass off off the ball and look for a situation where you can get a clean look. He won't do it. He refuses to do it. I've been more than patient with the guy. I waited until after the 2 and half year mark to really start digging in on him. And after his entire rookie deal and 18 million later, no more excuses.

He doesn't need to be a franchise player. He doesn't need to be an All Star. He doesn't need to be a Top 75 player. He just needs to put in the relentless work to do something/anything to help this team win, even if it's incrementally.

People see one or two games where he excels and sees that as a springboard to make excuses. NO, those are games which indicate no excuses should be made. If he just plain sucked at basketball and could do no better, then you couldn't blame him for what he cannot do. However the occasional good game means he could do more but simply refuses to play in a way where he could bring more of that to the table. Every role player in every sport needs to have a "Come To Jesus" moment in their career. This is what you wanted to be. This is how you see yourself on the field of play. Then there is the brutal reality of what you truly are and where you stand in your sport. You've been a star your whole life and now you are just a role player. It's humbling. But that's what it takes to help a team win.

It's easy to see a Corey Maggette and say, "Wow, that guy plays like a total *******" Shotjacking chucker who kills all morale and all ball movement and is anti-team in every possible way. Not so easy to see a quiet sulking Frank N just loafing on the court and say, "Well, he's playing like an ******* too" But that's exactly the case. You can suck at your sport, but you cannot suck at sweat equity on the mother****ing hard top. How hard is that?

This is a divorce that needed to happen a long time ago. It's like having a family member that you love but needs to move the **** out of your house.

If you can't be trusted, then you just don't exist. That's how it works.

Bullock is underrated player, but who is he? He's classic 3 and D. He doesn't create his own shot- doesn't post or penetrate. He spots up for 3's and when going well, will give 3 or 4 of those per night. He occasionally gets a 2- but maybe 1 in 4 of his baskets. He's a spot 3 shooter who plays hard on both ends.

You can't pay these guys 10mm per year in a salary cap world, especially after they hit 30 yrs old. Burks got a 1yr/6mm deal. Bullock was supposed to be paid 10mm before his injury, but I think ended up with less than half that. Ideally you keep em both under the 8mm threshold for no more than 2 yrs each.

There are players you can draft mid-late first who can play this profile - but I agree, will they do it year 1? Hard to know, but sometimes you gotta pass on the certainty for the long term goals.

jrodmc wrote:Ahhh, another Frank thread! It was getting quiet, too quiet along the Maginot Line.

Frank isn't gone, because to utilize the patented Mirror Test Logic, what the eff is he worth to anyone right now, getting around 48 seconds a game? We going to give away a first round bust for a late second round pick in 2027 and three cups of free Trader Joe's because we need a different face at the end of the bench next to Theo Pinson? The bigger question is why the hell did't we keep Iggy? He gets blocks on Ben Simmons!

Bullock versus Burk? Burk gets hurt alot. Bullock is there every effing night. And I sincerely believe he and Randle have some sort of contractual agreement on the number of made threes Bullock can nail this entire season. Probably with elevated payoffs/chargebacks for the playoffs. Availability has it's own rewards.

I don't know, but Burk just seems to be one eurostep away from some sort of injury. To borrow a Clydism, he seems too herky-jerky.

Hmm yea true. I think burks may be to fragile to invest in for more than 1 year imo.. if the price is reasonable for 1 year ok.

We could replace bullock production easier via draft. But the rookie would have the skill but lack veteran experience.

Burks size wingspan and ability to play on/off ball and hit critical shots is more difficult to replace via draft.

They should bring back the same team next year with a 1 year deal beating other offers. Draft players and figure out if luka is good enough to replace rose/iq while promoting 1 to the starting spot or having Luca start. We don’t know the answer tho these questions. F/o knows more about what they have than us.

I think the highest priority 1 and 2 this off season is

1. Extend Randle for his Max extension which is a deal for us

2. See if Robinson will except 8-11m

I know everyone is excited to sign their fav free agent but we have to be very mindful of the cap and which important pieces should we retain first.

Knickoftime wrote:

xblvdels3 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:Ahhh, another Frank thread! It was getting quiet, too quiet along the Maginot Line.

Frank isn't gone, because to utilize the patented Mirror Test Logic, what the eff is he worth to anyone right now, getting around 48 seconds a game? We going to give away a first round bust for a late second round pick in 2027 and three cups of free Trader Joe's because we need a different face at the end of the bench next to Theo Pinson? The bigger question is why the hell did't we keep Iggy? He gets blocks on Ben Simmons!

Bullock versus Burk? Burk gets hurt alot. Bullock is there every effing night. And I sincerely believe he and Randle have some sort of contractual agreement on the number of made threes Bullock can nail this entire season. Probably with elevated payoffs/chargebacks for the playoffs. Availability has it's own rewards.

I don't know, but Burk just seems to be one eurostep away from some sort of injury. To borrow a Clydism, he seems too herky-jerky.

Hmm yea true. I think burks may be to fragile to invest in for more than 1 year imo.. if the price is reasonable for 1 year ok.

We could replace bullock production easier via draft. But the rookie would have the skill but lack veteran experience.

Burks size wingspan and ability to play on/off ball and hit critical shots is more difficult to replace via draft.

They should bring back the same team next year with a 1 year deal beating other offers. Draft players and figure out if luka is good enough to replace rose/iq while promoting 1 to the starting spot or having Luca start. We don’t know the answer tho these questions. F/o knows more about what they have than us.

I think the highest priority 1 and 2 this off season is

1. Extend Randle for his Max extension which is a deal for us

2. See if Robinson will except 8-11m

I know everyone is excited to sign their fav free agent but we have to be very mindful of the cap and which important pieces should we retain first.

Not sure I understand where people are coming from wanting to extend Robinson this offseason.

One of this biggest assets is next offseason the Knicks have his full Bird Rights on a $3.4m cap hold. THAT's valuable.

What's the downside to letting it ride?

If he's injured again or doesn't progress, then you maybe keep him on the cheaper side. If he blows up, you pay gladly knowing NEXT offseason is the Knicks last shot as cap flexibility anyway.

The only reason to extend him a year early is to maybe get him cheaper in 2023-24 and beyond when (fingers crossed) the Knicks will have landed a big fish or two already and the savings probably can't be spent anyway.

The only OTHER reason is you're afraid he blows up and spites the Knicks and leaves them for another of the small handful of (usually bad) teams with significant cap room in any given year, who still can't pay him as much as the Knicks.

I don't spend a MINUTE worrying about that or even consider spending 2022-23 cap space on it.

Exactly. That’s why we want to extend him as cheap as possible now. (Your two points)

If we can extend him Now for about 10m you do it. If he asks for more than 12m we play out your other
Scenario. ( possibly trade him)

Like I said our highest priority is finding out what is on Randle and Robinsons mind contract wise and negotiating the best deals for both sides.

Obviously pick up the option year on both players and start extension negotiations.

Draft players next

Then try to sign noel burks bullock to a 1 year deal for extra money beating out other offers.

I imagine we will lose 1 of the 3 because one will want a long term deal somewhere.

Consider offering Noel 2 years or more.

Everything depends on negotiations and what these guys want. It’s whether or not they want to be here and how much will they accept.

If a big name star becomes disgruntled then obviously everything I wrote above goes out the window.

If not it will be pretty much be the same squad plus potential draft picks who might be good.(minus Payton)

Insert luca to starting job or move iq or rose to start.

I know some will disagree with this scenario because they have plans of making moves to pick up (insert your favorite player in)

If an elite 1A or 1B star is not available this year we are targeting 2023 for one

Knickoftime wrote:

xblvdels3 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

xblvdels3 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:Ahhh, another Frank thread! It was getting quiet, too quiet along the Maginot Line.

Frank isn't gone, because to utilize the patented Mirror Test Logic, what the eff is he worth to anyone right now, getting around 48 seconds a game? We going to give away a first round bust for a late second round pick in 2027 and three cups of free Trader Joe's because we need a different face at the end of the bench next to Theo Pinson? The bigger question is why the hell did't we keep Iggy? He gets blocks on Ben Simmons!

Bullock versus Burk? Burk gets hurt alot. Bullock is there every effing night. And I sincerely believe he and Randle have some sort of contractual agreement on the number of made threes Bullock can nail this entire season. Probably with elevated payoffs/chargebacks for the playoffs. Availability has it's own rewards.

I don't know, but Burk just seems to be one eurostep away from some sort of injury. To borrow a Clydism, he seems too herky-jerky.

Hmm yea true. I think burks may be to fragile to invest in for more than 1 year imo.. if the price is reasonable for 1 year ok.

We could replace bullock production easier via draft. But the rookie would have the skill but lack veteran experience.

Burks size wingspan and ability to play on/off ball and hit critical shots is more difficult to replace via draft.

They should bring back the same team next year with a 1 year deal beating other offers. Draft players and figure out if luka is good enough to replace rose/iq while promoting 1 to the starting spot or having Luca start. We don’t know the answer tho these questions. F/o knows more about what they have than us.

I think the highest priority 1 and 2 this off season is

1. Extend Randle for his Max extension which is a deal for us

2. See if Robinson will except 8-11m

I know everyone is excited to sign their fav free agent but we have to be very mindful of the cap and which important pieces should we retain first.

Not sure I understand where people are coming from wanting to extend Robinson this offseason.

One of this biggest assets is next offseason the Knicks have his full Bird Rights on a $3.4m cap hold. THAT's valuable.

What's the downside to letting it ride?

If he's injured again or doesn't progress, then you maybe keep him on the cheaper side. If he blows up, you pay gladly knowing NEXT offseason is the Knicks last shot as cap flexibility anyway.

The only reason to extend him a year early is to maybe get him cheaper in 2023-24 and beyond when (fingers crossed) the Knicks will have landed a big fish or two already and the savings probably can't be spent anyway.

The only OTHER reason is you're afraid he blows up and spites the Knicks and leaves them for another of the small handful of (usually bad) teams with significant cap room in any given year, who still can't pay him as much as the Knicks.

I don't spend a MINUTE worrying about that or even consider spending 2022-23 cap space on it.

Exactly. That’s why we want to extend him as cheap as possible now. (Your two points)

If we can extend him Now for about 10m you do it. If he asks for more than 12m we play out your other
Scenario. ( possibly trade him)

The math doesn't make sense, however.

The Knicks are NOW the 4th seed. That moves their timetable up.

The 2021-22 and/or 2022-23 offseason is THEIR window with Randle's new deal kicking in in 2022-23.

Robinson counts $1.8m against the cap now and will only count $3.4m against the cap in next offseason. If they wait to sign him until they've spent up to the cap, then can go over to add onto the $3.4m.

By signing him to an extension NOW you don't realize any savings until the 2023-2024 season, when if all goes to plan, the Knicks won't HAVE any cap room anyway.

The Knicks are going to purposely go OVER the cap this offseason or next, so they won't have ANY cap space for at least the subsequent two, which is when you realize the savings.

So what you're really saving isn't offseason cap spending, but luxury tax savings.

Simply put in summer 2023, the Knicks don't want to have any cap room. So the difference between $8-10m for Robinson or $15-20m is irrelevant.

But by keeping him at $1.8m in 2021 and $3.4m in 2022 (up until the end of the 2022 offseason, you create cap room when you can spend it.

A $9m extension for 2022-2023 in 2021 takes away $5.6m from your optimal 2022 cap space.

Anyone else is this correct?

Ok. I thought only the 1.8m goes against the cap if they picked up his option for next year. Where does the 3.4m come from?

If I’m wrong I’m wrong. I’ve been educated. Thanks

Oh I think I get it. I just checked out Martin post about next years contract

xblvdels3 wrote:Anyone else is this correct?

As a fan of the game and as a fan of the Knicks, I like MRob. However his actual market value is nowhere near 8-10 million AAV.

If you are just looking at the best overall market based decision tree, given the current time and place, the best options are

1) Let MRob play out his contract and risk letting him walk. Certainly the pandemic didn't help his career and he's had some injuries. He moves exceptionally well for his size - no one should be that big and move that fast and he's made some gains as a defender, but he doesn't space the floor. If the Knicks end up with 4 years at about 7 million total and lose him, even without a sign and trade, they extracted good value out of a 2nd round pick. If they can sign and trade him, more the better.

2) Trade MRob if a deal is out there that helps the Knicks. Odds are MRob would not be the centerpiece of a trade, but a moving part if the Knicks are part of a larger 3 to 4 team trade.

In terms of career earnings, MRob ****ed up badly. And it's his own fault. He should have been a first round pick, but he did **** pre NBA that he shouldn't have done and could not justify/explain it in any formal interview process, so he avoided the Combine. Which was a bad mistake compounding a worse mistake. He took about 5 million guaranteed on a team friendly deal but that was betting against himself as a 2nd round pick has a lot more wiggle room to get their freedom sooner. He could have bet on himself and likely done better contract wise but he was not in a strong bargaining/leverage position. I'd say MRob's mistakes cost him anywhere from 8-12 million total so far. Stupid has a price and this was what it cost.

Winning in the NBA is like lifting weights. Gains are made, but they are incremental and measured and painful and you can't expect miracles overnight. The Knicks did have a great season this year, but it's not likely to be sustainable because it's built piecemeal and not through the draft. If Burks/Bullock/Noel/Rose, etc ,etc were all draftees, that would be different. Big leaps in a season are usually two steps forward, one step back. To believe the Knicks are inside a near contention window is not practical and not reality. The reality is the Knicks missed on the Frank N and Knox picks and I don't see things boding well for Toppin and they traded Zinger ( that situation was complicated but did set them back) You can't miss like that in a short time compression and end up a near term contender.

Everyone is trying to run before they walk. The Knicks don't need to make an immediate decision on MRob, so they shouldn't. It's that simple. Take another year to evaluate him. Trade him if there's a chance to do so, but if not, extract the value you can and risk letting him walk. He's not worth 10 million a year. I don't know where that number is coming from and I don't know why but it's not even close to market approximation. The assumption is the Knicks will max Randle. Good odds as of today, but they also don't have an incentive to rush it. Use the team option and wait it out and see what you have with a little more track record before making a huge decision.

There is absolutely zero reason for the Knicks to go near the tax zone at this point.

I recognize many fans are excited. They suffered for a very long time. I get that. But the Knicks need to make a good deal if they can find one and be willing to walk away if they don't. Spending because you have it versus spending when it makes long term sense are two entirely different things. I like MRob as a fan, but he ****ed himself. He cost himself early money in a career where your lifespan is very short and had the bad luck to enter the league when his position has been completely devalued by the market. If he wanted more money, he should have figured out a way to introduce a three point shot to his arsenal.

xblvdels3 wrote:
Toppin doesn’t look like a bust. If he wasn’t playing behind Randle he would be up there in ppg along with the other top 8 rookies. My eye test says Toppin is different than Knox and ntlikina as far as motor and talent.

A majority of the reason why the Knicks have won many more games this season is that Randle is carrying the load offensively but also he is holding his own on defense. Toppin is an orange traffic cone. If Randle did not exist on this roster and Toppin was a starter, the team defense would have suffered. And badly. If you score 15 points a game on volume ( Toppin isn't spacing the floor for you, not at this point, and he can't create his own shot) but you give up 50 on the other end, none of it matters. Also Toppin is going to do his best work with Rose, so to get Toppin to 15 points per game on volume, you need to overexpose Rose ( Rose is an older player with mileage with a previous injury history so you have to control his minutes)

Your PPG can go up as a counting stat if you shovel in enough volume. You can be a 100 yard a game rusher for the Jets if they feed you the ball 60 times every Sunday.

Lots of people talk about Toppin being able to score 12-15 points. But never at the context of what trade off. Without better floor spacing ( that Randle did provide), and you need Rose on the floor, how does that help Rose at all?

Some of you guys scream double doubles without any rational backdrop on whether all double doubles are actually valuable to winning basketball games. Enes Kanter can get you some double doubles if he was the starter, but what are the trade offs? ( Shit defense, zero rim protection, clogged floor spacing, bad passing, stupid fouls, etc, etc) And Kanter looks like Dikeme Mutombo on defense compared to Toppin.

The Knicks aren't so vastly loaded that Toppin couldn't have gotten many more minutes if he could contribute positively without these trade offs.

Blaming the lack of productivity on sitting behind Randle on the depth chart is a bunch of horse****. You are sitting on the bench because you can't produce and have no functional role in the NBA. Some here cite, "Well the coaches are to blame because they don't know how to use Toppin!" How do you use someone who will be exploited on the pick and roll on every single play if he was the starter? The guy even has problems dribbling. He's actually not a bad passer, when he's not forcing himself all the time and struggling to even dribble the ****ing basketball. And his footwork is horrible to boot. He's great in transition! Sure, when he's not tripping over his own feet.

If the best anyone can say is Toppin looks better moving in a straight line than Knox and/or Frank N, what kind of praise is that? Knox is lazy. Frank N hands the ball off so much, you think he's running the wishbone offense. What's impressive by a guy willing to run hard in a straight line compared to two straight up loafers?

I want Toppin to succeed because I love this team, but I have a hard time seeing how it all translates. He lacks many of the baseline skills for an older prospect claimed to be "NBA Ready" The woe that Toppin brings only makes the future FA decisions much harder. The Knicks need to spend cap dollars to make up for simply whiffing so many times on the draft. RJB and Quickley look good but you can't keep wasting your other lottery picks like this.

TripleThreat wrote:

xblvdels3 wrote:
Toppin doesn’t look like a bust. If he wasn’t playing behind Randle he would be up there in ppg along with the other top 8 rookies. My eye test says Toppin is different than Knox and ntlikina as far as motor and talent.

A majority of the reason why the Knicks have won many more games this season is that Randle is carrying the load offensively but also he is holding his own on defense. Toppin is an orange traffic cone. If Randle did not exist on this roster and Toppin was a starter, the team defense would have suffered. And badly. If you score 15 points a game on volume ( Toppin isn't spacing the floor for you, not at this point, and he can't create his own shot) but you give up 50 on the other end, none of it matters. Also Toppin is going to do his best work with Rose, so to get Toppin to 15 points per game on volume, you need to overexpose Rose ( Rose is an older player with mileage with a previous injury history so you have to control his minutes)

Your PPG can go up as a counting stat if you shovel in enough volume. You can be a 100 yard a game rusher for the Jets if they feed you the ball 60 times every Sunday.

Lots of people talk about Toppin being able to score 12-15 points. But never at the context of what trade off. Without better floor spacing ( that Randle did provide), and you need Rose on the floor, how does that help Rose at all?

Some of you guys scream double doubles without any rational backdrop on whether all double doubles are actually valuable to winning basketball games. Enes Kanter can get you some double doubles if he was the starter, but what are the trade offs? ( Shit defense, zero rim protection, clogged floor spacing, bad passing, stupid fouls, etc, etc) And Kanter looks like Dikeme Mutombo on defense compared to Toppin.

The Knicks aren't so vastly loaded that Toppin couldn't have gotten many more minutes if he could contribute positively without these trade offs.

Blaming the lack of productivity on sitting behind Randle on the depth chart is a bunch of horse****. You are sitting on the bench because you can't produce and have no functional role in the NBA. Some here cite, "Well the coaches are to blame because they don't know how to use Toppin!" How do you use someone who will be exploited on the pick and roll on every single play if he was the starter? The guy even has problems dribbling. He's actually not a bad passer, when he's not forcing himself all the time and struggling to even dribble the ****ing basketball. And his footwork is horrible to boot. He's great in transition! Sure, when he's not tripping over his own feet.

If the best anyone can say is Toppin looks better moving in a straight line than Knox and/or Frank N, what kind of praise is that? Knox is lazy. Frank N hands the ball off so much, you think he's running the wishbone offense. What's impressive by a guy willing to run hard in a straight line compared to two straight up loafers?

I want Toppin to succeed because I love this team, but I have a hard time seeing how it all translates. He lacks many of the baseline skills for an older prospect claimed to be "NBA Ready" The woe that Toppin brings only makes the future FA decisions much harder. The Knicks need to spend cap dollars to make up for simply whiffing so many times on the draft. RJB and Quickley look good but you can't keep wasting your other lottery picks like this.

You made me laugh a few times here about ntlikina. It’s all true what your saying.

I just believe and hope he will improve this off season.

Although honestly, his performance was not a big surprise.