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Noel needs some love
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smackeddog
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4/13/2021  3:22 PM
Shame we didn’t sign him to a 2 year deal- it’ll be tough keeping him and Mitch without p-ing off one of them regarding salary or minutes/starting. He’s been excellent though! Was a real rollercoaster- I liked the signing a lot at the time, then he had that weird/disappointing start and fired his agent, then hit his stride after Mitch went down.
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Knixkik
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4/13/2021  3:50 PM
BRIGGS wrote:
martin wrote:

He got screwed out of 70 million. Now he’s gonna earn it.

No way does he make that much. Big men who can't stretch the floor still aren't valued a ton in the league. Ultimately i want to keep both but it really just comes down to cost.
smackeddog
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4/13/2021  5:23 PM
Knixkik wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
martin wrote:

He got screwed out of 70 million. Now he’s gonna earn it.

No way does he make that much. Big men who can't stretch the floor still aren't valued a ton in the league. Ultimately i want to keep both but it really just comes down to cost.

There have been a few incidents questioning his attitude or something- no idea if they’re true or not, but stuff like him buying a hotdog in the middle of a game because he was sulking or something when he was with the Mavs, or that fuss earlier in the year when it looked like he was sulking a bit when he didn’t get the starting job and changed agents. It might be unfair, but I think stuff like that played a part in him only getting $5mil this offseason. Hopefully being on this team and with this coaching staff has seen that improve and not be an issue anymore, think being in some not-great situations and bad advice from his former agent probably brought out the worst in him (and even then it was nothing major).
KnickDanger
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4/13/2021  5:46 PM
And perhaps Thibs and his staff deserve some love too.
ToddTT
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4/13/2021  6:11 PM
Yes... we need to pay this man.
Oh good lord... https://www.youtube.com/shorts/XkmGrX7O0lQ
martin
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4/13/2021  6:41 PM
KnickDanger wrote:And perhaps Thibs and his staff deserve some love too.

Feel like both FO and Coaching staff have been aces

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EwingsGlass
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4/13/2021  7:17 PM
Mitch and Nerlens have generally similar stats. I’d be remiss to let either go without knowing you are replacing them with someone arguably better. Their defense stats both individually and collectively are both stellar. I don’t think you would be wrong to lock up both as a unit for many years. I think they both match your archetype C you want for this team.

Thing about Mitch is that I think he still has upside. I mean, I would see how this off-season plays out but once you fill the holes at PG and SF, I don’t see a reason not to lock both these guys up long-term.

You know I gonna spin wit it
technomaster
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4/13/2021  7:24 PM
The thing about Mitch is that he's an elite finisher... and he really should have Dwight Howard like potential with his great hands, balance, speed, and athleticism. He's a pretty awesome specimen. He needs to get comfortable taking some shots where he has a mere 50% shot of making them (shots 5-10 feet away from the basket, rather than focusing solely on shots that give him 70% accuracy.)

And of course, doing all the basic center sort of stuff, setting picks, boxing out, blocks, and stuff...

“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
Chandler
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4/13/2021  9:28 PM
i love Noel but let's not get ahead of ourselves either

He truly has one of the worst set of hands i've seen on a professional athlete. Manute Bol had worse but he had a bona fide, disability where his hands essentially curled like claws. Learned this sitting courtside next to Chris Mullin's dad years ago. He kept referring to Chris as "my boy" and it took me about a half of basketball before i realized he was not saying that figuratively. anyway... i digress.

Noel is well suited for our team on so many levels and we should try and keep him, but it's 10x more important to keep Mitch and sign him up sooner. He is more effective on offense, more coordinated, better at the perimeter and i think can make a huge jump up with better creativity from pg

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xavier
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4/14/2021  3:57 AM
This is the catch 22 when you have a great backup.

You have him of course to make sure production doesn’t fall when the starter isn’t available. But in fact you hope that this situation will not happen because if the starter is not there for a long time, and production has not fallen, it is unlikely that you will keep the backup or you will have to pay him much more.
Philc1
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4/14/2021  4:13 AM
Lock up Noel long term and use Mitch as trade bait
xavier
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4/14/2021  5:23 AM
Philc1 wrote:Lock up Noel long term and use Mitch as trade bait

I absolutely love what Noel is doing this season. But he hasn't really proved to be a particularly consistent player all these seasons. How can we know this is the “real” Noel?

Let’s face it, I’m not against him to stay, but if you give him a long-term decent contract and get rid of Mitch and then Noel next season starts looking like what a good part of last seasons looked like again?

I liked that we have a combination of Mitch and Noel because we had two centers that bring you what Thibs is asking of them 48 minutes per game.

When you add that Mitch has 1.7 and Noel 5 million per season, that’s bargain. But if he stays, Mitch will get a new contract this summer (12-15 million per season), and Noel will certainly not play for 5 after this. Let him get something like 3 years / 25 million and suddenly it doesn't look so good anymore .

Anyway, I’m not quite sure they’ll both be Knicks players next season.
BigDaddyG
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4/14/2021  12:09 PM
xavier wrote:
Philc1 wrote:Lock up Noel long term and use Mitch as trade bait

I absolutely love what Noel is doing this season. But he hasn't really proved to be a particularly consistent player all these seasons. How can we know this is the “real” Noel?

Let’s face it, I’m not against him to stay, but if you give him a long-term decent contract and get rid of Mitch and then Noel next season starts looking like what a good part of last seasons looked like again?

I liked that we have a combination of Mitch and Noel because we had two centers that bring you what Thibs is asking of them 48 minutes per game.

When you add that Mitch has 1.7 and Noel 5 million per season, that’s bargain. But if he stays, Mitch will get a new contract this summer (12-15 million per season), and Noel will certainly not play for 5 after this. Let him get something like 3 years / 25 million and suddenly it doesn't look so good anymore .

Anyway, I’m not quite sure they’ll both be Knicks players next season.

To be honest with you, he has been consistent over the years. The only thing that's been off this year has been his scoring, and I'll attribute part of that to the team's pace and lack of a real playmaker. I'd have no problem bringing Noel back. It just depends on the price.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
xavier
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4/14/2021  1:09 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
xavier wrote:
Philc1 wrote:Lock up Noel long term and use Mitch as trade bait

I absolutely love what Noel is doing this season. But he hasn't really proved to be a particularly consistent player all these seasons. How can we know this is the “real” Noel?

Let’s face it, I’m not against him to stay, but if you give him a long-term decent contract and get rid of Mitch and then Noel next season starts looking like what a good part of last seasons looked like again?

I liked that we have a combination of Mitch and Noel because we had two centers that bring you what Thibs is asking of them 48 minutes per game.

When you add that Mitch has 1.7 and Noel 5 million per season, that’s bargain. But if he stays, Mitch will get a new contract this summer (12-15 million per season), and Noel will certainly not play for 5 after this. Let him get something like 3 years / 25 million and suddenly it doesn't look so good anymore .

Anyway, I’m not quite sure they’ll both be Knicks players next season.

To be honest with you, he has been consistent over the years. The only thing that's been off this year has been his scoring, and I'll attribute part of that to the team's pace and lack of a real playmaker. I'd have no problem bringing Noel back. It just depends on the price.

Maybe we didn’t understood each other well, I really like Noel and I want him back. I’m just saying it probably won’t be very convenient to give bigger contracts to both him and Mitch. It all depends on how much Noel will ask for.
technomaster
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4/14/2021  2:01 PM    LAST EDITED: 4/14/2021  3:36 PM
xavier wrote:Maybe we didn’t understood each other well, I really like Noel and I want him back. I’m just saying it probably won’t be very convenient to give bigger contracts to both him and Mitch. It all depends on how much Noel will ask for.

What is a center worth in the modern NBA? Here's a rough list of the top 10 or so weapons I can think of:
Top Tier: Embiid, Jokic, Towns, Gobert, KP, Davis
2nd Tier: Vucevic, Valanciunas, Capela, Ayton, Woods(!)
Outside of Ayton on his rookie contract, Capela ($16m), Valanciunas ($15m), and Woods($13m) are the lowest paid guys on my list.

Beyond that, an extremely productive guy like Enes Kanter (~12ppg/12rpg/61%FG) "only" makes $5m. He's a better scorer/rebounder/finisher than Noel, but not the defender. But with his beefy frame you're not worried about him crumbling like a scarecrow on the ground.

What are Noel and Robinson worth? Looking at per 36 mins, they average fewer rebounds and points than any of those players. Neither of them shoots the ball outside the paint nor are particularly prolific at playmaking. And this season, Mitchell Robinson's 1.9bpg per 36 are unremarkable.

So... yes, while our Knick centers are extremely valuable (to us), they don't quite match up well against the top 1/3 of centers. And the fact that you get little dropoff in production when you go to our 3rd string center (35 year old Taj Gibson on a min contract), that's further evidence that shows we don't need to overpay them. As much as I want them to feel loved and wanted, I think these Noel/Mitch may be lucky to get $6-10m on the open market - and alas, their value is hurt tremendously by their injury history and lack of offense outside the paint.

“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
ToddTT
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4/14/2021  6:32 PM
technomaster wrote:
xavier wrote:Maybe we didn’t understood each other well, I really like Noel and I want him back. I’m just saying it probably won’t be very convenient to give bigger contracts to both him and Mitch. It all depends on how much Noel will ask for.

What is a center worth in the modern NBA? Here's a rough list of the top 10 or so weapons I can think of:
Top Tier: Embiid, Jokic, Towns, Gobert, KP, Davis
2nd Tier: Vucevic, Valanciunas, Capela, Ayton, Woods(!)
Outside of Ayton on his rookie contract, Capela ($16m), Valanciunas ($15m), and Woods($13m) are the lowest paid guys on my list.

Beyond that, an extremely productive guy like Enes Kanter (~12ppg/12rpg/61%FG) "only" makes $5m. He's a better scorer/rebounder/finisher than Noel, but not the defender. But with his beefy frame you're not worried about him crumbling like a scarecrow on the ground.

What are Noel and Robinson worth? Looking at per 36 mins, they average fewer rebounds and points than any of those players. Neither of them shoots the ball outside the paint nor are particularly prolific at playmaking. And this season, Mitchell Robinson's 1.9bpg per 36 are unremarkable.

So... yes, while our Knick centers are extremely valuable (to us), they don't quite match up well against the top 1/3 of centers. And the fact that you get little dropoff in production when you go to our 3rd string center (35 year old Taj Gibson on a min contract), that's further evidence that shows we don't need to overpay them. As much as I want them to feel loved and wanted, I think these Noel/Mitch may be lucky to get $6-10m on the open market - and alas, their value is hurt tremendously by their injury history and lack of offense outside the paint.

LOL. I used to worry about it... but this skinny dude is tough! He’s quickly climbing the chart of favorite Knicks in my book.

Oh good lord... https://www.youtube.com/shorts/XkmGrX7O0lQ
ToddTT
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4/14/2021  8:14 PM
Annnnnnddd... he’s out with a sore ankle.
Oh good lord... https://www.youtube.com/shorts/XkmGrX7O0lQ
xavier
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4/15/2021  4:13 AM
technomaster wrote:I think these Noel/Mitch may be lucky to get $6-10m on the open market - and alas, their value is hurt tremendously by their injury history and lack of offense outside the paint.

Like we said, Noel is an ideal backup for a team like the Knicks who need a defensive center alongside Randle. And I agree that to other teams he's probably not worth as he is to us because most teams in the league are looking for something else from the backup center. Offensive productivity in 15-20 minutes plus outside shooting if possible. And it’s actually possible that you’re right there and that no one will even offer him more than these 5 million.

But as for Mitch, I'm sure his potential is much greater than what Noel is showing now, and I believe that healthy under Thibs he would show it very quickly. Also, I may be wrong, but I think there are GMs in the league who really like his potential and if Mitch becomes a free agent, I’m pretty sure other teams’ offers might surprise some posters here.
knicks1248
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4/15/2021  8:44 AM
ToddTT wrote:Annnnnnddd... he’s out with a sore ankle.

annnnnnd apparently it didn't even matter because we didn't miss a beat defensively without him or mitch..

This teams chemistry on defense, and the defense philosophy is pretty damn good, and it looks like you can plug anyone in at the center position

ES
martin
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4/17/2021  12:24 AM
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