Welpee wrote:

Nalod wrote:Need a guy in the league? euro league is better than Gleague. Kyles team is coached by Igor the Russian who was head coach at PHX and assistant for many years in the NBA. I’d rather live in Istanbul then Philly.
Relax, he would be a back up for. Few weeks. Who else do some of you have in mind?

* nobody said anything about the G League.
* Not sure of the relevance of who is coaching him.
* You are certainly entitled to your preferred geographic location. It is reasonable to think that a player raised in NYC, if given the choice, would prefer living 2 hours from his hometown versus in another country if the money and opportunities were comparable. I have to assume one of two things occurred: 1) he wasn't offered an NBA contract this off season or 2) he could make more money overseas.
* I've said forever, I would definitely entertain a trade with Knox and Mo Bamba has the foundation of the deal if Orlando would listen.

Mo Bamba is a different story. KOQ just a stop gap for a few weeks until Gibson or Mitch is back.
Asking a NBA vet to step in on short notice from teh euro league, a good one at that coached by an NBA quality coach is easier than a raw Gleague who will cower under Thibs.
Mitch for Bamba is a longer term proposition which is not really this band aid needed short term. What is his status in Orlando? Does he have his lungs back? I’m not opposed to it BtW.
I’d rather live in Istanbul than NYC for at least a year or so.

Philc1 wrote:

Welpee wrote:I'd rather have a guy who is actually good enough to be in the league. I don't think O'Quinn is playing in Turkey because he wanted to experience the country.

Guys fall through the cracks. In 2012 we were literally the only nba team willing to give a job to Jeremy Lin and JR Smith. Smith was in China

Think about it, people are advocating O'Quinn leave a gig in Turkey to likely sign a couple of 10 day contracts until Gibson and/or Robinson returns, then he's unemployed again. If we're looking for a stop gag center who plays little to no defense, just call up Skal Labissiere from the g-league. I'd rather inquiry about Dewayne Dedmon or Thon Maker. Maybe see what Tyson Chandler is doing.

Welpee wrote:Regarding Bamba, if we're talking stop gap how good would his lungs have to be right now anyway? Plus you'd get a long term project and flexibility if Noel walks this off-season or Mitch leaves the following year. And it's not like O'Quinn is logging heavy minutes in Turkey either. He has only played four games this season.

You are projecting to fill a slot 2 years out on a guy who hasn't proven A) that he has recovered from COVID and B) Is even a prospect worth trading for.

Bamba makes $7.5M next year and I would think that Brock Aller and company would be a hard NO on that type of trade. The Knicks are under new salary cap management and I think we have to consider that heavily

To put it in perspective, Bamba has done about as much as Knox in this league, without the lungs issue

martin wrote:

Welpee wrote:Regarding Bamba, if we're talking stop gap how good would his lungs have to be right now anyway? Plus you'd get a long term project and flexibility if Noel walks this off-season or Mitch leaves the following year. And it's not like O'Quinn is logging heavy minutes in Turkey either. He has only played four games this season.

You are projecting to fill a slot 2 years out on a guy who hasn't proven A) that he has recovered from COVID and B) Is even a prospect worth trading for.

Bamba makes $7.5M next year and I would think that Brock Aller and company would be a hard NO on that type of trade. The Knicks are under new salary cap management and I think we have to consider that heavily

To put it in perspective, Bamba has done about as much as Knox in this league, without the lungs issue

2) There is conflicting data out there, but according to one site Bamba is making about $6M this year, $7.5M next year and $10M team option the year after that. And much of that salary would be offset by trading Knox, so moneywise it's an extra maybe $2M on the cap. Not that big a deal, especially considering how much we're currently under the cap.

3) If he were a PROVEN prospect he likely wouldn't even be available. Moving Knox for Bamba is about swapping two disappointing lottery picks on the hopes that a change of scenery unlocks their game (FYI, Knox would be returning to Florida, Bamba to NYC). If you would rather stick with Knox just to save $2M that's certainly your opinion. You're already filling a two year slot with Knox.

4) By the way, what you are proposing to do when Mitch's contract is up after next season?

Welpee wrote:

martin wrote:

Welpee wrote:Regarding Bamba, if we're talking stop gap how good would his lungs have to be right now anyway? Plus you'd get a long term project and flexibility if Noel walks this off-season or Mitch leaves the following year. And it's not like O'Quinn is logging heavy minutes in Turkey either. He has only played four games this season.

You are projecting to fill a slot 2 years out on a guy who hasn't proven A) that he has recovered from COVID and B) Is even a prospect worth trading for.

Bamba makes $7.5M next year and I would think that Brock Aller and company would be a hard NO on that type of trade. The Knicks are under new salary cap management and I think we have to consider that heavily

To put it in perspective, Bamba has done about as much as Knox in this league, without the lungs issue

1) How has he not proven he has recovered from COVID? He has played three out of the last four games averaging close to his minutes average last year. Are his DNPs because of COVID or because of coach's decisions?

2) There is conflicting data out there, but according to one site Bamba is making about $6M this year, $7.5M next year and $10M team option the year after that. And much of that salary would be offset by trading Knox, so moneywise it's an extra maybe $2M on the cap. Not that big a deal, especially considering how much we're currently under the cap.

3) If he were a PROVEN prospect he likely wouldn't even be available. Moving Knox for Bamba is about swapping two disappointing lottery picks on the hopes that a change of scenery unlocks their game (FYI, Knox would be returning to Florida, Bamba to NYC). If you would rather stick with Knox just to save $2M that's certainly your opinion. You're already filling a two year slot with Knox.

4) By the way, what you are proposing to do when Mitch's contract is up after next season?

Orlando has exactly 2 playable guys over 6'9" in Vučević and Bamba and Mo barely getting minutes.

Knicks have Mitch, Noel, and Taj; all guys that they love from top to bottom and fit their style.

Mitch will be signed long term and will eventually eat 30 minutes a game and Noel is his perfect compliment off the bench.

This FO has proven to us that they will trade and make moves with purpose. At this point Mo will have to prove he is capable before the Knicks will even think about trading for him, and besides they are in the hunt for wings and PGs not dysfunctional centers

Welpee wrote:

martin wrote:

Welpee wrote:

martin wrote:

Welpee wrote:Regarding Bamba, if we're talking stop gap how good would his lungs have to be right now anyway? Plus you'd get a long term project and flexibility if Noel walks this off-season or Mitch leaves the following year. And it's not like O'Quinn is logging heavy minutes in Turkey either. He has only played four games this season.

You are projecting to fill a slot 2 years out on a guy who hasn't proven A) that he has recovered from COVID and B) Is even a prospect worth trading for.

Bamba makes $7.5M next year and I would think that Brock Aller and company would be a hard NO on that type of trade. The Knicks are under new salary cap management and I think we have to consider that heavily

To put it in perspective, Bamba has done about as much as Knox in this league, without the lungs issue

1) How has he not proven he has recovered from COVID? He has played three out of the last four games averaging close to his minutes average last year. Are his DNPs because of COVID or because of coach's decisions?

2) There is conflicting data out there, but according to one site Bamba is making about $6M this year, $7.5M next year and $10M team option the year after that. And much of that salary would be offset by trading Knox, so moneywise it's an extra maybe $2M on the cap. Not that big a deal, especially considering how much we're currently under the cap.

3) If he were a PROVEN prospect he likely wouldn't even be available. Moving Knox for Bamba is about swapping two disappointing lottery picks on the hopes that a change of scenery unlocks their game (FYI, Knox would be returning to Florida, Bamba to NYC). If you would rather stick with Knox just to save $2M that's certainly your opinion. You're already filling a two year slot with Knox.

4) By the way, what you are proposing to do when Mitch's contract is up after next season?

Orlando has exactly 2 playable guys over 6'9" in Vučević and Bamba and Mo barely getting minutes.

Knicks have Mitch, Noel, and Taj; all guys that they love from top to bottom and fit their style.

Mitch will be signed long term and will eventually eat 30 minutes a game and Noel is his perfect compliment off the bench.

This FO has proven to us that they will trade and make moves with purpose. At this point Mo will have to prove he is capable before the Knicks will even think about trading for him, and besides they are in the hunt for wings and PGs not dysfunctional centers

Well, they brought back Payton and picked up Austin Rivers so let's not pretend we're suddenly Masai Ujiri-like. So you're also saying the FO will hold on to dysfunctional forwards (Knox)? This all about projecting, not making deals solely on what the dude is doing today.

And you're so frugal regarding the cap, but you're on board with paying Mitch $15M+ per year when he hits the open market?

Signing players to what they are exactly worth or even at favorable deals for the team they sign with..... is exactly what I would expect. That's Burks, Rivers, Noel, Taj, Payton. It's what you are supposed to do.

When you make a change to the team, trade or whatever, you do so with purpose and for the better. Witness exchanging bench fodder DSJr + 2nd round pick for Rose. Like that. You don't fault an incoming FO for inheriting Knox and waiting to see if coaching and proper management can increase a player's worth or if the player will do so himself (ie Julius, he was in the same spot as Knox).

Fair value for Mitch probably is $15M. These things are a give and take and leverage and timing.

Bamba is..... A 4th big option off the bench at a cost of $7.5M next year, who could have a career debilitating injury, who has not really shown too much potential and enough downside risk, whose replacement could be gotten for much cheaper, etc etc

Welpee wrote:

martin wrote:

Welpee wrote:

martin wrote:

Welpee wrote:

martin wrote:

Welpee wrote:Regarding Bamba, if we're talking stop gap how good would his lungs have to be right now anyway? Plus you'd get a long term project and flexibility if Noel walks this off-season or Mitch leaves the following year. And it's not like O'Quinn is logging heavy minutes in Turkey either. He has only played four games this season.

You are projecting to fill a slot 2 years out on a guy who hasn't proven A) that he has recovered from COVID and B) Is even a prospect worth trading for.

Bamba makes $7.5M next year and I would think that Brock Aller and company would be a hard NO on that type of trade. The Knicks are under new salary cap management and I think we have to consider that heavily

To put it in perspective, Bamba has done about as much as Knox in this league, without the lungs issue

1) How has he not proven he has recovered from COVID? He has played three out of the last four games averaging close to his minutes average last year. Are his DNPs because of COVID or because of coach's decisions?

2) There is conflicting data out there, but according to one site Bamba is making about $6M this year, $7.5M next year and $10M team option the year after that. And much of that salary would be offset by trading Knox, so moneywise it's an extra maybe $2M on the cap. Not that big a deal, especially considering how much we're currently under the cap.

3) If he were a PROVEN prospect he likely wouldn't even be available. Moving Knox for Bamba is about swapping two disappointing lottery picks on the hopes that a change of scenery unlocks their game (FYI, Knox would be returning to Florida, Bamba to NYC). If you would rather stick with Knox just to save $2M that's certainly your opinion. You're already filling a two year slot with Knox.

4) By the way, what you are proposing to do when Mitch's contract is up after next season?

Orlando has exactly 2 playable guys over 6'9" in Vučević and Bamba and Mo barely getting minutes.

Knicks have Mitch, Noel, and Taj; all guys that they love from top to bottom and fit their style.

Mitch will be signed long term and will eventually eat 30 minutes a game and Noel is his perfect compliment off the bench.

This FO has proven to us that they will trade and make moves with purpose. At this point Mo will have to prove he is capable before the Knicks will even think about trading for him, and besides they are in the hunt for wings and PGs not dysfunctional centers

Well, they brought back Payton and picked up Austin Rivers so let's not pretend we're suddenly Masai Ujiri-like. So you're also saying the FO will hold on to dysfunctional forwards (Knox)? This all about projecting, not making deals solely on what the dude is doing today.

And you're so frugal regarding the cap, but you're on board with paying Mitch $15M+ per year when he hits the open market?

Signing players to what they are exactly worth or even at favorable deals for the team they sign with..... is exactly what I would expect. That's Burks, Rivers, Noel, Taj, Payton. It's what you are supposed to do.

When you make a change to the team, trade or whatever, you do so with purpose and for the better. Witness exchanging bench fodder DSJr + 2nd round pick for Rose. Like that. You don't fault an incoming FO for inheriting Knox and waiting to see if coaching and proper management can increase a player's worth or if the player will do so himself (ie Julius, he was in the same spot as Knox).

Fair value for Mitch probably is $15M. These things are a give and take and leverage and timing.

Bamba is..... A 4th big option off the bench at a cost of $7.5M next year, who could have a career debilitating injury, who has not really shown too much potential and enough downside risk, whose replacement could be gotten for much cheaper, etc etc

You keep making these assessments in a vacuum. Bamba has shown me more potential than Knox. Have you actually watched him play? Maybe I'm biased because I've seen this dude live, but tell me where Knox has shown more potential than Bamba?

Let's revisit this around this time next year. Feel free to call me out because I'll definitely seek you out with the "I told you so" if I'm right about this. I have no problem admitting if I'm wrong.

I haven't made one statement about Mamba vs Knox potential or compared them direct. Feel like it's you who are in vacuum about flat potential vs potential.

I'm giving the landscape of why I think the Knicks either shouldn't or won't given their roster, the cost of Mo, his potentially career threatening illness, the needs for the Knicks, and what his value is versus what value can be had.

Knicks have Thibs at the helm and they are going to build it around guys who fit him. Mitch and Noel fit him down the middle and what they want to do on defense. Can Bamba also do those things? Maybe? Has he shown that.... not to the level of Noel or Mitch. Is there great potential that he literally never makes it back to norm health where he can build up? 50/50 right now and maybe by end of next season he can be at a peak where he contributes at a normal level. Is that the sort that makes Thib's rotation? NOPE. Does this player fit the Brock Aller smell test? Not IMHO.

Rivers would be a good example of the type of contributor that is on the outer edge of what Thibs is looking for.... and I think it's clear where he is on the rotation order. Same with DSJr and Frank (who until recently was out until he PROVED himself).

Welpee wrote:

martin wrote:

Welpee wrote:

martin wrote:

Welpee wrote:

martin wrote:

Welpee wrote:

martin wrote:

Welpee wrote:Regarding Bamba, if we're talking stop gap how good would his lungs have to be right now anyway? Plus you'd get a long term project and flexibility if Noel walks this off-season or Mitch leaves the following year. And it's not like O'Quinn is logging heavy minutes in Turkey either. He has only played four games this season.

You are projecting to fill a slot 2 years out on a guy who hasn't proven A) that he has recovered from COVID and B) Is even a prospect worth trading for.

Bamba makes $7.5M next year and I would think that Brock Aller and company would be a hard NO on that type of trade. The Knicks are under new salary cap management and I think we have to consider that heavily

To put it in perspective, Bamba has done about as much as Knox in this league, without the lungs issue

1) How has he not proven he has recovered from COVID? He has played three out of the last four games averaging close to his minutes average last year. Are his DNPs because of COVID or because of coach's decisions?

2) There is conflicting data out there, but according to one site Bamba is making about $6M this year, $7.5M next year and $10M team option the year after that. And much of that salary would be offset by trading Knox, so moneywise it's an extra maybe $2M on the cap. Not that big a deal, especially considering how much we're currently under the cap.

3) If he were a PROVEN prospect he likely wouldn't even be available. Moving Knox for Bamba is about swapping two disappointing lottery picks on the hopes that a change of scenery unlocks their game (FYI, Knox would be returning to Florida, Bamba to NYC). If you would rather stick with Knox just to save $2M that's certainly your opinion. You're already filling a two year slot with Knox.

4) By the way, what you are proposing to do when Mitch's contract is up after next season?

Orlando has exactly 2 playable guys over 6'9" in Vučević and Bamba and Mo barely getting minutes.

Knicks have Mitch, Noel, and Taj; all guys that they love from top to bottom and fit their style.

Mitch will be signed long term and will eventually eat 30 minutes a game and Noel is his perfect compliment off the bench.

This FO has proven to us that they will trade and make moves with purpose. At this point Mo will have to prove he is capable before the Knicks will even think about trading for him, and besides they are in the hunt for wings and PGs not dysfunctional centers

Well, they brought back Payton and picked up Austin Rivers so let's not pretend we're suddenly Masai Ujiri-like. So you're also saying the FO will hold on to dysfunctional forwards (Knox)? This all about projecting, not making deals solely on what the dude is doing today.

And you're so frugal regarding the cap, but you're on board with paying Mitch $15M+ per year when he hits the open market?

Signing players to what they are exactly worth or even at favorable deals for the team they sign with..... is exactly what I would expect. That's Burks, Rivers, Noel, Taj, Payton. It's what you are supposed to do.

When you make a change to the team, trade or whatever, you do so with purpose and for the better. Witness exchanging bench fodder DSJr + 2nd round pick for Rose. Like that. You don't fault an incoming FO for inheriting Knox and waiting to see if coaching and proper management can increase a player's worth or if the player will do so himself (ie Julius, he was in the same spot as Knox).

Fair value for Mitch probably is $15M. These things are a give and take and leverage and timing.

Bamba is..... A 4th big option off the bench at a cost of $7.5M next year, who could have a career debilitating injury, who has not really shown too much potential and enough downside risk, whose replacement could be gotten for much cheaper, etc etc

You keep making these assessments in a vacuum. Bamba has shown me more potential than Knox. Have you actually watched him play? Maybe I'm biased because I've seen this dude live, but tell me where Knox has shown more potential than Bamba?

Let's revisit this around this time next year. Feel free to call me out because I'll definitely seek you out with the "I told you so" if I'm right about this. I have no problem admitting if I'm wrong.

I haven't made one statement about Mamba vs Knox potential or compared them direct. Feel like it's you who are in vacuum about flat potential vs potential.

I'm giving the landscape of why I think the Knicks either shouldn't or won't given their roster, the cost of Mo, his potentially career threatening illness, the needs for the Knicks, and what his value is versus what value can be had.

Knicks have Thibs at the helm and they are going to build it around guys who fit him. Mitch and Noel fit him down the middle and what they want to do on defense. Can Bamba also do those things? Maybe? Has he shown that.... not to the level of Noel or Mitch. Is there great potential that he literally never makes it back to norm health where he can build up? 50/50 right now and maybe by end of next season he can be at a peak where he contributes at a normal level. Is that the sort that makes Thib's rotation? NOPE. Does this player fit the Brock Aller smell test? Not IMHO.

Rivers would be a good example of the type of contributor that is on the outer edge of what Thibs is looking for.... and I think it's clear where he is on the rotation order. Same with DSJr and Frank (who until recently was out until he PROVED himself).

Don't you think you're being a little overly dramatic to try and prove a point saying he has a "potentially career threatening illness?"

Nope. As of this Dec 2020, lots more articles like it:

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/lebron-james-nikola-jokic-knicks-headline-nbas-first-half-winners-celtics-rockets-among-biggest-losers/

Most NBA players diagnosed with COVID-19 have recovered relatively quickly. A good number dealt with the virus during the in-season hiatus but recovered soon enough to play in the Disney bubble. Mo Bamba of the Orlando Magic appears to be an exception. The third-year center picked No. 6 overall in the 2018 NBA Draft was diagnosed with the coronavirus on June 11. He tested negative in time to report to the NBA bubble but was not capable of playing there.

And now, almost six months later, Bamba is still dealing with symptoms. "There's no real timetable for him to be able to come back and fully participate," Magic coach Steve Clifford said, according to The Athletic's Josh Robbins. "I think that he'll be able to do some things that are more organizational and everything. But he's a ways away, and there's no timetable on his return." In June, Bamba told The Athletic that he lost his senses of smell and taste, was unusually fatigued and dealt with muscle soreness.

Welpee wrote:Regarding Knox, I've injected him into this discussion multiple times and you ignore it, but it is critical to this conversation. The premise is trading Knox for Bamba. Other than COVID, every negative you've asserted about Bamba can be applied to Knox. I'm discussing TRADING Knox for Bamba. Exchanging one disappointing lottery pick for another at the cost of what, an extra $2M? Knox is extremely relevant to what I'm talking about, but just because you won't address it doesn't lessen it's relevance.

You keep talking about fit, you really think Knox is a better fit for Thibs than Bamba? Also, you realize Noel is on a one year deal and can walk after this season. We pulled Taj in off the street to help our front court. You should also realize young bigs often take little longer to develop than wing players. This is about projection, not looking at what a player is doing today and not looking beyond that.

I have a couple of simple questions for you: 1) do you believe Knox has more upside and is a better fit for Thibs than Bamba? 2) Do you think Knox is going to be a critical piece in a major deal down the road? i.e. "without Knox we can't acquire (fill in the blank star)."

I answer those questions as "no" and "no." So I see no downside. If Bamba comes here and is a total bust, what did we lose besides $2M in cap space? Unless you think Knox will go elsewhere and ball out. Even still, was he going to do that here? It really doesn't look that way.

Because you don't think a trade for a certain player (Bamba) is viable does not mean I think there is a better fit for Knox. Those are 2 entirely different statements and should not be conflated or assumed. Teams just don't trade for players willy nilly or at least this FO won't. You start with the premise of Does player X have a fit for this team and is he a need. My answer is No so I don't go beyond that consideration and don't think this FO would either. If Mo was a $1M salary and cost nothing, it's different.

Right now Mo is the 3rd big on a very bad Orlando team. Maybe by the end of next season he will show himself to be back to some semblance of his former self (if that can happen at all) by which time he will have consumed $7.5M being the 3rd or 4th option on the Knicks' bench and without much gained and in a position of having nothing gained.

Welpee wrote:Speaking of Brock Aller, wasn't he the guy who was lukewarm on Quickley?

No, I doubt it.

We have to put ourselves into his shoes and figure out his perspective. Brock's main purpose on the Knicks is to analyze and try to get max value out of every trade, contract, draft position, etc. That's his value to the organization. He is an analytical numbers nerd. Brock wanted to maximize the value of the draft pick WHILE drafting IQ. I'm guessing his thought was that IQ would be available lower in the draft with the Knicks being able to trade back while gaining assets and still drafting IQ (if that's the player the other people in the room wanted).

I'm sure Brock Aller has his opinions about players but Leon is only listening to him when his strengths are more important; in this instance we are glad Leon listened to Payne/WWW and others.

Welpee wrote:Right now Mo is the 3rd big off on a very bad Orlando team and Knox is a non rotational player on a .500 team that needs shooting (his supposed specialty). How much money is Knox consuming and giving us nothing? Again, we have to agree to disagree, but you can't just conveniently excluded Knox from the conversation. I think we can use what Bamba brings to the table even NOW more than what Knox is providing. And we're not even talking potential, I'm talking right now, today.

Knox specialty has never been shooting and it's been born out over the past 2 seasons so we empirically KNOW Knox is not a good shooter cause, you know, he demonstrated it. His potential upside was something else.