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GustavBahler
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12/15/2020  8:37 AM
NYKBocker wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Would love to see Frank and/or DSJr make a case to start. Would make things easier for the team. Unfortunately, dont believe either one has yet to make a case. Still early though.
Untill they give Frank a chance to actually run the PG spot can we really say that he didn't make a case.

Doubt Frank is going to get the look you want until he shows more offense. Has to go out and be aggressive.
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fitzfarm
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12/15/2020  8:38 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/15/2020  8:39 AM
GustavBahler wrote:Would love to see Frank and/or DSJr make a case to start. Would make things easier for the team. Unfortunately, dont believe either one has yet to make a case. Still early though.

I love Frank, he needs to be more aggressive on offense.

Dsjr needs to be in attack mode the guy is a freak athlete start forcing teams to collapse on you and open the floor for others...it’s maddening to see him just chill on the 3pt line extended, that needs to change

I think Payton needs to come off the bench there is to much youth in the second unit and he could be the floor general needed to set them up and he could potentially finish games.
Nalod
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12/15/2020  8:41 AM
Quickly is under contract for 4 years. Dennis is obviously in the rotation and will be until resolution. There is a reality to this for many reasons. But remember while we pray a player returns after an off season as a revelation this is expectations often not fulfilled. Dennis is improved. Does it show or show yet? Not after two games. After few seasons its easier for a fan to be conclusive. If your running a company you set a timeline of events. This is not being shared with us. Back to IQ, he is a young rook and at best unless he is some Donovan Mitchell type don’t expect to see him for a while. I hope I’m wrong. Knicks love him but he has to acclimate.
Team runs better with Payton for now and thats why he starts. Team plays well with Frank and thats why he plays. At this moment in time Frank has trade value and I’d offer him an extension. Don’t ask me for how much. Calm the kid down assure his presence in the 2nd rotation and let him grow. Perhaps frank says “nope, I believe in myself and let it play out”. Ok.
Dennis gets 20 games. We don’t see what he does in practice that enamors Thibs and the coach’s to do this. Its all coming to a head and its not pretty. I don’t get upset that he was the centerpiece of the KP deal because I did not think much of him at that moment. Don’t get me wrong, I am as disappointed as anyone but he was tainted before he got here.
Rivers for now has not practiced yet and will miss all preseason it seems. For now thats Dennis’s minutes. IF there is a thought to Extend Frank, once done you sit him with understanding its not permanent. ITs about Dennis getting sorted and maybe traded or waived. His back might go out. Its an old movie. At some point Elf gets banged up and has to sit, Rivers might be playing catch up for a while and getting into shape might take weeks, and Franks groin is still franks groin. Quickly will get some minutes.

This is the state of things. New to Knicks Thibs, Bryant and Payne all know better than us and yet we treat them like they can’t see what we see. ITs really they can’t “feel what we feel”. Thats a good thing. Otherwise they’d be all whiney that we don’t draft, sign free agents or Develope rookies. They don’t give a **** about the past. Its ok to look at a players history, his age, and make a decision on his trajectory. But our organic history is not some biological disadvantage where the air and the water in the practice facility disallows for player development. Thats just silly talk.

I’m a frustrated fan and emotionally have thrown in the towel on Dennis but intellectually I understand what the knicks are doing.
Chandler
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12/15/2020  8:52 AM

the problem with Frank and Elfrid is that neither is dynamic enough with the ball to create easy baskets for their teammates and neither can shoot reliably. The first problem can be mitigated by relying on other guys to initiate the offense, a concept i have no philosophical disagreement with, as many top teams do not use the pg as the prime initiator. That said this compounds the problem of lack of shooting because if your pg isn't initiating and can't shoot, you end up playing offense for the most part 4 on 5 -- not good. For either to be legitimate starters they need to reliably hit open shots -- actually they need to do more but until they can do that we can't continue to think of them as starters. this is why i can see IQ becoming our point. he can defend the point with his long reach, and he stay on the perimeter to keep opponent honest even if another is actually initiating the offense. if this were to happen then someone like RJ would need to be the initiator

the problem with DSJ at the moment are too many to list. those saying he's a freakish athlete should be using the past tense. I have not seen him blow by an opponent or even drive hard and draw a foul in such a long time i can't even recall if it actually happened. Sad but true. I think we have too many issues as a team to devote the energy to a reclamation project

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Nalod
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12/15/2020  9:19 AM
GustavBahler wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Would love to see Frank and/or DSJr make a case to start. Would make things easier for the team. Unfortunately, dont believe either one has yet to make a case. Still early though.
Untill they give Frank a chance to actually run the PG spot can we really say that he didn't make a case.

Doubt Frank is going to get the look you want until he shows more offense. Has to go out and be aggressive.

LOL we can chase our tail on this subject. He is all too willing to make the pass than force a bad shot but he passes up good looks “by doing the right thing”. Last season he was playmaking more at the elbow and the paint and setting up his mates as the season progressed. He had a few instances in Detroit he pushed the ball up and made transition passes. He was rebounding and disrupting as well.
IN a set up offense he gets buried in the corner.
I agree in principle. Dennis forces it because he has the handle (or should have it) to break down defense. Frank does not have that kind of handle but can create space.
My thing is what is his coach asking him to do? Is he not executing? If he is being frozen out? Is he timid with fear to fail
GustavBahler
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12/15/2020  10:11 AM
Nalod wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Would love to see Frank and/or DSJr make a case to start. Would make things easier for the team. Unfortunately, dont believe either one has yet to make a case. Still early though.
Untill they give Frank a chance to actually run the PG spot can we really say that he didn't make a case.

Doubt Frank is going to get the look you want until he shows more offense. Has to go out and be aggressive.

LOL we can chase our tail on this subject. He is all too willing to make the pass than force a bad shot but he passes up good looks “by doing the right thing”. Last season he was playmaking more at the elbow and the paint and setting up his mates as the season progressed. He had a few instances in Detroit he pushed the ball up and made transition passes. He was rebounding and disrupting as well.
IN a set up offense he gets buried in the corner.
I agree in principle. Dennis forces it because he has the handle (or should have it) to break down defense. Frank does not have that kind of handle but can create space.
My thing is what is his coach asking him to do? Is he not executing? If he is being frozen out? Is he timid with fear to fail

Passing up good looks isnt a quality coaches want. Calderon, Prigs, did the same thing. They were great at sharing the rock. They would have been a Knick longer if they didnt pass up so many good looks. They also were allergic to the rim.
shinmen
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12/15/2020  10:52 AM
GustavBahler wrote:
Nalod wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Would love to see Frank and/or DSJr make a case to start. Would make things easier for the team. Unfortunately, dont believe either one has yet to make a case. Still early though.
Untill they give Frank a chance to actually run the PG spot can we really say that he didn't make a case.

Doubt Frank is going to get the look you want until he shows more offense. Has to go out and be aggressive.

LOL we can chase our tail on this subject. He is all too willing to make the pass than force a bad shot but he passes up good looks “by doing the right thing”. Last season he was playmaking more at the elbow and the paint and setting up his mates as the season progressed. He had a few instances in Detroit he pushed the ball up and made transition passes. He was rebounding and disrupting as well.
IN a set up offense he gets buried in the corner.
I agree in principle. Dennis forces it because he has the handle (or should have it) to break down defense. Frank does not have that kind of handle but can create space.
My thing is what is his coach asking him to do? Is he not executing? If he is being frozen out? Is he timid with fear to fail

Passing up good looks isnt a quality coaches want. Calderon, Prigs, did the same thing. They were great at sharing the rock. They would have been a Knick longer if they didnt pass up so many good looks. They also were allergic to the rim.

Actually if I remember correctly, in Prigs's case it was him that requested a trade to a contender as he was at the end of his career. Prigs was the perfect glue guy in his lineup. The offense was more fluid when he was playing. With the occasional 3pts and steal, he was a positive on the court despite his stats.
Exactly like Frank, except Frank is one the best perimeter defender in all NBA as well. I don't understand how it's not valued more among the knicks FO. I'm not saying maxing him but he so deserves an extension.
GustavBahler
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12/15/2020  12:11 PM
shinmen wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Nalod wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Would love to see Frank and/or DSJr make a case to start. Would make things easier for the team. Unfortunately, dont believe either one has yet to make a case. Still early though.
Untill they give Frank a chance to actually run the PG spot can we really say that he didn't make a case.

Doubt Frank is going to get the look you want until he shows more offense. Has to go out and be aggressive.

LOL we can chase our tail on this subject. He is all too willing to make the pass than force a bad shot but he passes up good looks “by doing the right thing”. Last season he was playmaking more at the elbow and the paint and setting up his mates as the season progressed. He had a few instances in Detroit he pushed the ball up and made transition passes. He was rebounding and disrupting as well.
IN a set up offense he gets buried in the corner.
I agree in principle. Dennis forces it because he has the handle (or should have it) to break down defense. Frank does not have that kind of handle but can create space.
My thing is what is his coach asking him to do? Is he not executing? If he is being frozen out? Is he timid with fear to fail

Passing up good looks isnt a quality coaches want. Calderon, Prigs, did the same thing. They were great at sharing the rock. They would have been a Knick longer if they didnt pass up so many good looks. They also were allergic to the rim.

Actually if I remember correctly, in Prigs's case it was him that requested a trade to a contender as he was at the end of his career. Prigs was the perfect glue guy in his lineup. The offense was more fluid when he was playing. With the occasional 3pts and steal, he was a positive on the court despite his stats.
Exactly like Frank, except Frank is one the best perimeter defender in all NBA as well. I don't understand how it's not valued more among the knicks FO. I'm not saying maxing him but he so deserves an extension.

Point taken about Prigs. He was a good role player, but clearly not the answer as a starting PG. Not enough offense, nevermind his age. Same thing applies to Frank. Not enough offense. If the bar wasnt starting PG, you're right. Frank would get more respect.
newyorknewyork
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12/15/2020  12:30 PM
GustavBahler wrote:Would love to see Frank and/or DSJr make a case to start. Would make things easier for the team. Unfortunately, dont believe either one has yet to make a case. Still early though.

First preseason game Thibs went with Smith, Frank, Knox, Obi, Mitch. Granted it was somewhat delayed subs but eventually they all got good mins together. And that unit all looked good together and I believe brought the team back with the combination of length youthful energy all over the floor.

2nd pre season game Thibs wanted to look at a Obi/Randle frontcourt and tried to protect them defensively with Frank & Quickley. But the problem is for the first half he didn't put Frank in until 7min left in the half and then 5mins left in the 4th. That's not doing him any favors. He isn't a microwave instant offense type.

And in place of Frank, Bullock got the mins with Smith, Knox, Obi, Mitch but he shot 1-7 from 3 and was just off. As was everyone else in the unit that night.

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martin
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12/15/2020  12:42 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Would love to see Frank and/or DSJr make a case to start. Would make things easier for the team. Unfortunately, dont believe either one has yet to make a case. Still early though.

First preseason game Thibs went with Smith, Frank, Knox, Obi, Mitch. Granted it was somewhat delayed subs but eventually they all got good mins together. And that unit all looked good together and I believe brought the team back with the combination of length youthful energy all over the floor.

2nd pre season game Thibs wanted to look at a Obi/Randle frontcourt and tried to protect them defensively with Frank & Quickley. But the problem is for the first half he didn't put Frank in until 7min left in the half and then 5mins left in the 4th. That's not doing him any favors. He isn't a microwave instant offense type.

And in place of Frank, Bullock got the mins with Smith, Knox, Obi, Mitch but he shot 1-7 from 3 and was just off. As was everyone else in the unit that night.

All of this. It's most all of the important, young guys getting time together. That's the most important thing.

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JesseDark
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12/15/2020  12:50 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:It doesn’t really matter who starts at PG given the options currently on the team. Cuz our style of offense which is similar to what Fiz was running. As well as the makeup of the team doesn’t do them any favors. Teams are gonna pack the paint and dare us to beat them with the 3. This will then regulate the players who have the ball in their hands the most to play against their strengths.

Guess they are waiting for an elite type off playmaker to adjust the offense to? Cuz that type of guard probably will demand different sets.

I will say. After Randle refused to pass to Frank when he was wide open for the corner 3 after he just nailed one. After that, for the first time since he’s been on the team I saw him try to work a 2 man game with Frank on like 2-3 straight possessions. Was pretty shocked. Even kicked up the ball to allow him to bring it up. Must have felt bad about not passing it to him earlier.

I caught that too that he didn’t pass to Frank after he had just nailed one. I was thinking why not go back to him to see if he was hot. As mediocre as Frank had been gotta still give he chance in that situation.

Bring back dee-fense
newyorknewyork
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12/15/2020  12:58 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/15/2020  1:00 PM
Frank isn't dynamic with the ball. That's just not what he is. He like most on the team will play well with someone who actually is. He will do all the little things away from the ball and be one of the better players on the team on the defensive end of the court. And will also make extra passes yada yada yada. Unlike having multiple players on the court that need the ball to be effective and don't do much without it, which doesn't work.

The combination of offensive talent that create easy shots for others paired with the guys who do things without the ball but get good looks from the players who can effectively create with the ball. Has routinely been the formula for success in the NBA.

Payton - Needs ball to be effective, can be good defensively
Burks - Can knock down 3s and move the ball
RJ - Needs ball to be effective, does have potential defensively
Randle - Needs ball to be effective
Noel - Doesn't need ball to be effective

Smith - Needs ball to be effective
Frank - Doesn't need ball to be effective
Knox - Needs ball to be effective
Obi - Needs ball to be effective
Mitch - Doesn't need ball to be effective

Rivers - Needs ball to be effective
Bullock - Above average floor spacer

We don't have good balance

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knicks1248
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12/15/2020  1:06 PM
When are some of you going to stop blaming coaches for franks level of play.

Why can't he just ball out when he's in the game and and at practice so coaches have no choice but to start him.

ES
HofstraBBall
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12/15/2020  1:20 PM
shinmen wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Nalod wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Would love to see Frank and/or DSJr make a case to start. Would make things easier for the team. Unfortunately, dont believe either one has yet to make a case. Still early though.
Untill they give Frank a chance to actually run the PG spot can we really say that he didn't make a case.

Doubt Frank is going to get the look you want until he shows more offense. Has to go out and be aggressive.

LOL we can chase our tail on this subject. He is all too willing to make the pass than force a bad shot but he passes up good looks “by doing the right thing”. Last season he was playmaking more at the elbow and the paint and setting up his mates as the season progressed. He had a few instances in Detroit he pushed the ball up and made transition passes. He was rebounding and disrupting as well.
IN a set up offense he gets buried in the corner.
I agree in principle. Dennis forces it because he has the handle (or should have it) to break down defense. Frank does not have that kind of handle but can create space.
My thing is what is his coach asking him to do? Is he not executing? If he is being frozen out? Is he timid with fear to fail

Passing up good looks isnt a quality coaches want. Calderon, Prigs, did the same thing. They were great at sharing the rock. They would have been a Knick longer if they didnt pass up so many good looks. They also were allergic to the rim.

Actually if I remember correctly, in Prigs's case it was him that requested a trade to a contender as he was at the end of his career. Prigs was the perfect glue guy in his lineup. The offense was more fluid when he was playing. With the occasional 3pts and steal, he was a positive on the court despite his stats.
Exactly like Frank, except Frank is one the best perimeter defender in all NBA as well. I don't understand how it's not valued more among the knicks FO. I'm not saying maxing him but he so deserves an extension.

Why do you think he is not valued? He is the only player left from PJ era. Problem is that fans want to take his defensive abilities and translate that into him being a high level NBA starting PG. He is just not that. He hustles and plays good defense. He can be part of many rotations but we need a high level PG or a young kid that has the potential to be one. Unfortunately none of our guys are atm. Watching the teams that have food PGs it's obvious to see how our set are so drastically different. High level guys create, put defenses in bad positions, hit open looks and are very aggressive in making things happen.

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TheGame
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12/15/2020  2:20 PM
It is clear the team should go back to the rotation of Payton with Frank as the primary backup. DSJr just needs to be traded. Yeah, he might improve somewhere else and we traded KP for him, but at this point his is sunk cost and trying to rehabilitate him is taking minutes from Frank and now Quickley. DSJr needs a change of scenery.
Trust the Process
martin
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12/15/2020  2:23 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:It doesn’t really matter who starts at PG given the options currently on the team. Cuz our style of offense which is similar to what Fiz was running. As well as the makeup of the team doesn’t do them any favors. Teams are gonna pack the paint and dare us to beat them with the 3. This will then regulate the players who have the ball in their hands the most to play against their strengths.

Guess they are waiting for an elite type off playmaker to adjust the offense to? Cuz that type of guard probably will demand different sets.

newyorknewyork wrote:Frank isn't dynamic with the ball. That's just not what he is. He like most on the team will play well with someone who actually is. He will do all the little things away from the ball and be one of the better players on the team on the defensive end of the court. And will also make extra passes yada yada yada. Unlike having multiple players on the court that need the ball to be effective and don't do much without it, which doesn't work.

The combination of offensive talent that create easy shots for others paired with the guys who do things without the ball but get good looks from the players who can effectively create with the ball. Has routinely been the formula for success in the NBA.

Payton - Needs ball to be effective, can be good defensively
Burks - Can knock down 3s and move the ball
RJ - Needs ball to be effective, does have potential defensively
Randle - Needs ball to be effective
Noel - Doesn't need ball to be effective

Smith - Needs ball to be effective
Frank - Doesn't need ball to be effective
Knox - Needs ball to be effective
Obi - Needs ball to be effective
Mitch - Doesn't need ball to be effective

Rivers - Needs ball to be effective
Bullock - Above average floor spacer

We don't have good balance


Good stuff. The Knicks have a major which comes first, Chicken/Egg dilemma that won't be fixed until trade or next draft (hopefully).

They dont have enough shooting. They don't have a wing that can break down defense or create for others while being a threat. Teams can just pack paint and will mostly be successful. Pretty much end of story.

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martin
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12/15/2020  2:25 PM
TheGame wrote:It is clear the team should go back to the rotation of Payton with Frank as the primary backup. DSJr just needs to be traded. Yeah, he might improve somewhere else and we traded KP for him, but at this point his is sunk cost and trying to rehabilitate him is taking minutes from Frank and now Quickley. DSJr needs a change of scenery.

Which team is going to TAKE DSJr without both seeing him play and not ask for compensation from the Knicks? He makes $5.5M

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TheGame
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12/15/2020  2:44 PM
martin wrote:
TheGame wrote:It is clear the team should go back to the rotation of Payton with Frank as the primary backup. DSJr just needs to be traded. Yeah, he might improve somewhere else and we traded KP for him, but at this point his is sunk cost and trying to rehabilitate him is taking minutes from Frank and now Quickley. DSJr needs a change of scenery.

Which team is going to TAKE DSJr without both seeing him play and not ask for compensation from the Knicks? He makes $5.5M

Decent point. There might not be any team at this point. If they want to sit him on the bench then I am cool with that but Frank might have a future with the Knicks beyond this year and Quickley needs to play. Now if they are just trying out DSJr for preseason, then fine but I think they actually plan to give him 20 minutes a game, which IMO is a waste.

Trust the Process
martin
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12/15/2020  2:48 PM
TheGame wrote:
martin wrote:
TheGame wrote:It is clear the team should go back to the rotation of Payton with Frank as the primary backup. DSJr just needs to be traded. Yeah, he might improve somewhere else and we traded KP for him, but at this point his is sunk cost and trying to rehabilitate him is taking minutes from Frank and now Quickley. DSJr needs a change of scenery.

Which team is going to TAKE DSJr without both seeing him play and not ask for compensation from the Knicks? He makes $5.5M

Decent point. There might not be any team at this point. If they want to sit him on the bench then I am cool with that but Frank might have a future with the Knicks beyond this year and Quickley needs to play. Now if they are just trying out DSJr for preseason, then fine but I think they actually plan to give him 20 minutes a game, which IMO is a waste.

The players just had an extraordinary amount of time off and only 5 days of training camp... how can they NOT give him like +/- 20 regular season games to see what he's got?

Yeah it'll hurt team but what else is there? Literally sit him and waste the player? Just can't do that

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Sambakick
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12/15/2020  2:51 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/15/2020  2:51 PM
Kemet wrote:We have only 4 preseason games .. Why didn't coach Thibs let the young-core players & rookies be Starters and the first backups in the first 3 preseason games to gain confidence before the regular season starts ???
Frank, RJ, Knox, Obi, MitchRob, 6th Man DSJ, Quickley, Bullock, Brazdeikis, Spellman.
I'm sure no Knicks fan would've been upset not seeing Randle, Payton, Noel, and Noel in the 3 preseason games.

Even that group needs some pre-season games to knock off the rust after the long layoff.
Thibs wants to win games and is using pre-season to get his team as ready as can be.
If you're waiting for Thibs to lose with rookie-contracts and D-leaguers this is gonna be torture for you.

By the way, I like Noel, and Noel.

Everything in moderation. Even moderation.
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