KnickDanger wrote:I like Hahn and this is all interesting but take it with a grain of salt. Assuming some of this is smoke from a (dumpster?) fire, what I read into it is a bunch of young men -- some very young -- on a rudderless ship with a rotating dysfunctional leadership. So they act out here and there. I guess there will be a distinct change in attitude when there is a clear direction given in a team voice. And winning would help. We'll see.

I agree- Hahn wasn’t throwing him under a bus, it all came about because there’s a long running joke that Hahn hates Frank (based on the way Wally and him talk about him on MSG), Hahn was explaining he didn’t hate Frank, but saying what some of the issues were (and openly accepted the Knicks had failed him too.

martin wrote:
Thanks for the recap, much appreciated.

Would you or anyone else have a list of NY Knicks podcasts or YouTube video channels that would help me out with? I'll take a shot at adding into our mix of things we gather. Thanks

Yep, sure. Honestly we’re spoiled as Knick fans for fan made content, there’s no reason to bother with a lot of ESPN shows. The fan podcast and YouTube shows and writers are really high quality, entertaining and funny. They share our lamenting and despair, but in a funny way- it was fun listening to them after the KP trade and took some of the pain away!

My favorite ones are:

Knicks Fan TV

Does live YouTube shows with call ins, and some great interviews. These YouTube shows then appear as podcasts the next day

https://twitter.com/KnicksFanTv

YouTube channel:

https://t.co/D1Oi9ats28?amp=1

Apple podcasts:

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/knicks-fan-tv-the-podcast/id1447445750

Google podcast:

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5idXp6c3Byb3V0LmNvbS8yMzYzOTkucnNz

Knicks Film School

Johnathon Macari has some legit sources and is an enjoyable, informative listen:

Apple:

https://podcasts.apple.com/ph/podcast/knicks-film-school/id1439034317

Stitcher:

https://www.stitcher.com/show/the-knicks-film-school-podcast

Hard Knicks Life

Less informative but usually funny, especially when something bad has happened

Apple:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/its-a-hard-knicks-life/id1266106879

Stitcher:

https://www.stitcher.com/show/its-a-hard-knicks-life

And finally the aforementioned The Strickland

Have longer, more in-depth discussions, but also funny rather than dry

https://www.thestrick.land/podcasts

Chandler wrote:

Uptown wrote:Interesting tidbits on Frank. If true, the wholesome, team first image that is portrayed takes a serious hit and I can see this regime not hesitating to move him.

I think Vanvleet is in a great situation, playing in Toronto alongside Lowry. I think he gets exposed a bit if he is asked to be not only the main. ball hander and decision maker but the number 1 player on a team (he would be here). He is in a great system with a really good coach and battle tested teammates. He won't be the same player here.

I like Okoro but maybe the Knicks think his game is too similar to RJ in terms of being a physical slasher that needs to work on his shot. If the Knicks stay at 8 and Hayes is on the board, I can see them grabbing him.

ANd the Knicks have earned your trust to believe this?

Not necessarily, which is why I said "if". However, if it was a planted story, why not use the typical "unnamed source"? I don't see why Hahn would put his name on this story if there wasn't at least some truth to it.

It may be best for this franchise and for Frank to mutually part ways. A new organization and a fresh start might be best for him and us. Frank has become a polarizing figure here. Im still bothered by those fans that bood DSj who was playing awful and chanted Frank's name in DSJs return from grieving for the death of his mom. It wasn't Frank's fault but those fans were an embarrassing.

smackeddog wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:No reason not to believe Hahn. But the Frank tidbit doesn't add up. If this was the case they would have moved him by now. There also isn't anything to point to that would back this up. Can't name a time when he refused lineup at other positions or play off ball. And you never see him sulking on the bench.

Unless this is something that he communicated that he desires this offseason while the FO & coaching staff have different plans. Saying his teammates didn't like him in that role would be speaking on the past experience. At the same time a new demanding Frank would be interesting to see.

They’ve tried to move him each deadline and offseason but never got offered anything worth doing it.

Hahn wasn’t saying Frank was a villain or anything- he was saying both the organization and coaches have been and fault but so has Frank. He said Phil drafted him then was fired, and no one remaining knew what to do with him, starting with Hornacek. Remember when Fiz was interviewed he said Mills asked him what to do with Frank and Fiz also had no idea but sold it as “let Frank be Frank”.

Frank sees himself as a PG, and likely his agent is telling him he’s a PG (remember when he switched agents and the new one said they had to de-programme him from what the Knicks had said to him or something)- that’s not unreasonable, especially when your team seems to have no idea what to do with you for years. However I think the Knicks don’t think he can be that and want him to just be a 1-3 defender, swing man off the bench. He said if Frank would just accept that role and be good with it, he’d be fine keeping him around. I don’t think Frank’s a diva, I think he’s just been messed over by our terrible developmental and organizational malaise since he came into the league- you can see him get down or look sad or lost a lot of the time because it’s a dysfunctional relationship.

Not sure that they kept trying to move Frank. Im guessing they wanted a first rd pick. Have no doubt that the Knicks could have bagged a 2nd rounder for Frank.

Hornacek knew what to do with Frank. Didnt run him into the ground, which was a good idea. Also encouraged him to be more aggressive. So did his other coaches,and teammates, like Jarrett Jack.

The franchise has been very patient with Frank. Fair to say he was drafted too young. The selling point was his pro experience in Europe. For some kids, thats enough. Frank should have stayed there for a couple more years.

Nothing wrong with trying to prove you're good enough to play PG. Cant be around to do that if you arent accepting your current role, in the meantime. His offense has been moslty non-existent. In today's NBA, its a non-starter as a starting PG.

Rose and Perry have seen Smith jr put together an entire season(rookie) of consistent scoring, running an offense. Before the injuries piled on. Frank is going into year 4 and still cant do that for more than a week or two.

Frank's D is good enough for him to get interest from a contender, in free agency. But how much will he be offered if its all about being a PG? Frank can defend multiple positions, thats what teams will be looking for. Not a PG who cant score.

Thibs has seen Frank play, practice (right?) as Knicks head coach. If Frank had come back with a legit offense, his shooting improved, would we be hearing this story? Sure wont help his trade value. If this story is true, Im guessing they're ready to move on. Which as Uptown pointed out, might be best for all parties. Wouldnt surprise me if the Mavs make an offer.

KnickDanger wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:No reason not to believe Hahn. But the Frank tidbit doesn't add up. If this was the case they would have moved him by now. There also isn't anything to point to that would back this up. Can't name a time when he refused lineup at other positions or play off ball. And you never see him sulking on the bench.

Unless this is something that he communicated that he desires this offseason while the FO & coaching staff have different plans. Saying his teammates didn't like him in that role would be speaking on the past experience. At the same time a new demanding Frank would be interesting to see.

They’ve tried to move him each deadline and offseason but never got offered anything worth doing it.

Hahn wasn’t saying Frank was a villain or anything- he was saying both the organization and coaches have been and fault but so has Frank. He said Phil drafted him then was fired, and no one remaining knew what to do with him, starting with Hornacek. Remember when Fiz was interviewed he said Mills asked him what to do with Frank and Fiz also had no idea but sold it as “let Frank be Frank”.

Frank sees himself as a PG, and likely his agent is telling him he’s a PG (remember when he switched agents and the new one said they had to de-programme him from what the Knicks had said to him or something)- that’s not unreasonable, especially when your team seems to have no idea what to do with you for years. However I think the Knicks don’t think he can be that and want him to just be a 1-3 defender, swing man off the bench. He said if Frank would just accept that role and be good with it, he’d be fine keeping him around. I don’t think Frank’s a diva, I think he’s just been messed over by our terrible developmental and organizational malaise since he came into the league- you can see him get down or look sad or lost a lot of the time because it’s a dysfunctional relationship.

Not sure that they kept trying to move Frank. Im guessing they wanted a first rd pick. Have no doubt that the Knicks could have bagged a 2nd rounder for Frank.

Hornacek knew what to do with Frank. Didnt run him into the ground, which was a good idea. Also encouraged him to be more aggressive. So did his other coaches,and teammates, like Jarrett Jack.

The franchise has been very patient with Frank. Fair to say he was drafted too young. The selling point was his pro experience in Europe. For some kids, thats enough. Frank should have stayed there for a couple more years.

Nothing wrong with trying to prove you're good enough to play PG. Cant be around to do that if you arent accepting your current role, in the meantime. His offense has been moslty non-existent. In today's NBA, its a non-starter as a starting PG.

Rose and Perry have seen Smith jr put together an entire season(rookie) of consistent scoring, running an offense. Before the injuries piled on. Frank is going into year 4 and still cant do that for more than a week or two.

Frank's D is good enough for him to get interest from a contender, in free agency. But how much will he be offered if its all about being a PG? Frank can defend multiple positions, thats what teams will be looking for. Not a PG who cant score.

Thibs has seen Frank play, practice (right?) as Knicks head coach. If Frank had come back with a legit offense, his shooting improved, would we be hearing this story? Sure wont help his trade value. If this story is true, Im guessing they're ready to move on. Which as Uptown pointed out, might be best for all parties. Wouldnt surprise me if the Mavs make an offer.

Not to get caught in the Frank vortex but...you have a good take but I will interject that in his short 2020 appearances he seemed to be gaining some confidence and effectiveness. I understand it was a small sample size and he's teased us in the past but IMO this was the best we have seen. My hope is they do not trade him particularly for beans. Maybe all he could be is on a Channing Frye or Trevor Ariza level -- but they were two fine pros with good careers we let go of for nothing.

This board is already in the Frank Vortex!!

Frank finished the season strong in the last couple of weeks. Not long enough to be anything but another tease IMO. As you said, small sample size.

Like the Ariza comparison. If Frank can start hitting 3s.

Sangfroid wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:No reason not to believe Hahn. But the Frank tidbit doesn't add up. If this was the case they would have moved him by now. There also isn't anything to point to that would back this up. Can't name a time when he refused lineup at other positions or play off ball. And you never see him sulking on the bench.

Unless this is something that he communicated that he desires this offseason while the FO & coaching staff have different plans. Saying his teammates didn't like him in that role would be speaking on the past experience. At the same time a new demanding Frank would be interesting to see.

They’ve tried to move him each deadline and offseason but never got offered anything worth doing it.

Hahn wasn’t saying Frank was a villain or anything- he was saying both the organization and coaches have been and fault but so has Frank. He said Phil drafted him then was fired, and no one remaining knew what to do with him, starting with Hornacek. Remember when Fiz was interviewed he said Mills asked him what to do with Frank and Fiz also had no idea but sold it as “let Frank be Frank”.

Frank sees himself as a PG, and likely his agent is telling him he’s a PG (remember when he switched agents and the new one said they had to de-programme him from what the Knicks had said to him or something)- that’s not unreasonable, especially when your team seems to have no idea what to do with you for years. However I think the Knicks don’t think he can be that and want him to just be a 1-3 defender, swing man off the bench. He said if Frank would just accept that role and be good with it, he’d be fine keeping him around. I don’t think Frank’s a diva, I think he’s just been messed over by our terrible developmental and organizational malaise since he came into the league- you can see him get down or look sad or lost a lot of the time because it’s a dysfunctional relationship.

Not sure that they kept trying to move Frank. Im guessing they wanted a first rd pick. Have no doubt that the Knicks could have bagged a 2nd rounder for Frank.

Hornacek knew what to do with Frank. Didnt run him into the ground, which was a good idea. Also encouraged him to be more aggressive. So did his other coaches,and teammates, like Jarrett Jack.

The franchise has been very patient with Frank. Fair to say he was drafted too young. The selling point was his pro experience in Europe. For some kids, thats enough. Frank should have stayed there for a couple more years.

Nothing wrong with trying to prove you're good enough to play PG. Cant be around to do that if you arent accepting your current role, in the meantime. His offense has been moslty non-existent. In today's NBA, its a non-starter as a starting PG.

Rose and Perry have seen Smith jr put together an entire season(rookie) of consistent scoring, running an offense. Before the injuries piled on. Frank is going into year 4 and still cant do that for more than a week or two.

Frank's D is good enough for him to get interest from a contender, in free agency. But how much will he be offered if its all about being a PG? Frank can defend multiple positions, thats what teams will be looking for. Not a PG who cant score.

Thibs has seen Frank play, practice (right?) as Knicks head coach. If Frank had come back with a legit offense, his shooting improved, would we be hearing this story? Sure wont help his trade value. If this story is true, Im guessing they're ready to move on. Which as Uptown pointed out, might be best for all parties. Wouldnt surprise me if the Mavs make an offer.

Not to get caught in the Frank vortex but...you have a good take but I will interject that in his short 2020 appearances he seemed to be gaining some confidence and effectiveness. I understand it was a small sample size and he's teased us in the past but IMO this was the best we have seen. My hope is they do not trade him particularly for beans. Maybe all he could be is on a Channing Frye or Trevor Ariza level -- but they were two fine pros with good careers we let go of for nothing.

This team has been rudderless for the better part of the three years that Frank has been a member. Honachek, Rambis, Fizdale, Miller. He is still the best defender on the team, and has shown higher confidence in his offense. Under this new regime, where defense is so highly valued, it would be a mistake to move off from Frank. It's interesting how he was projected to be the starting PG, to becoming the team Pariah before the season even begins. Let's not be the same ol' Knicks (Knicks fans?). If they're still working with Knox and DSJ, Frank's development should be just as important.

Yep, I never understood the 'trade Frank for a 2nd rounder'- why?! You can buy a second rounder, we have enough of them. If you can't getting anything of value, you keep and develop him.

Frank is a bit of a werewolf in that he seems to have a monster game or two once a month, then just when you get excited he vanishes again. I still have hope for him- I liked how he stepped up in the Mavs games, maybe he is the kind of player that steps up in the playoffs. He also seems to have a winning impact rather than empty stats (when he plays well it has a positive impact).

Sangfroid wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Sangfroid wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:No reason not to believe Hahn. But the Frank tidbit doesn't add up. If this was the case they would have moved him by now. There also isn't anything to point to that would back this up. Can't name a time when he refused lineup at other positions or play off ball. And you never see him sulking on the bench.

Unless this is something that he communicated that he desires this offseason while the FO & coaching staff have different plans. Saying his teammates didn't like him in that role would be speaking on the past experience. At the same time a new demanding Frank would be interesting to see.

They’ve tried to move him each deadline and offseason but never got offered anything worth doing it.

Hahn wasn’t saying Frank was a villain or anything- he was saying both the organization and coaches have been and fault but so has Frank. He said Phil drafted him then was fired, and no one remaining knew what to do with him, starting with Hornacek. Remember when Fiz was interviewed he said Mills asked him what to do with Frank and Fiz also had no idea but sold it as “let Frank be Frank”.

Frank sees himself as a PG, and likely his agent is telling him he’s a PG (remember when he switched agents and the new one said they had to de-programme him from what the Knicks had said to him or something)- that’s not unreasonable, especially when your team seems to have no idea what to do with you for years. However I think the Knicks don’t think he can be that and want him to just be a 1-3 defender, swing man off the bench. He said if Frank would just accept that role and be good with it, he’d be fine keeping him around. I don’t think Frank’s a diva, I think he’s just been messed over by our terrible developmental and organizational malaise since he came into the league- you can see him get down or look sad or lost a lot of the time because it’s a dysfunctional relationship.

Not sure that they kept trying to move Frank. Im guessing they wanted a first rd pick. Have no doubt that the Knicks could have bagged a 2nd rounder for Frank.

Hornacek knew what to do with Frank. Didnt run him into the ground, which was a good idea. Also encouraged him to be more aggressive. So did his other coaches,and teammates, like Jarrett Jack.

The franchise has been very patient with Frank. Fair to say he was drafted too young. The selling point was his pro experience in Europe. For some kids, thats enough. Frank should have stayed there for a couple more years.

Nothing wrong with trying to prove you're good enough to play PG. Cant be around to do that if you arent accepting your current role, in the meantime. His offense has been moslty non-existent. In today's NBA, its a non-starter as a starting PG.

Rose and Perry have seen Smith jr put together an entire season(rookie) of consistent scoring, running an offense. Before the injuries piled on. Frank is going into year 4 and still cant do that for more than a week or two.

Frank's D is good enough for him to get interest from a contender, in free agency. But how much will he be offered if its all about being a PG? Frank can defend multiple positions, thats what teams will be looking for. Not a PG who cant score.

Thibs has seen Frank play, practice (right?) as Knicks head coach. If Frank had come back with a legit offense, his shooting improved, would we be hearing this story? Sure wont help his trade value. If this story is true, Im guessing they're ready to move on. Which as Uptown pointed out, might be best for all parties. Wouldnt surprise me if the Mavs make an offer.

Not to get caught in the Frank vortex but...you have a good take but I will interject that in his short 2020 appearances he seemed to be gaining some confidence and effectiveness. I understand it was a small sample size and he's teased us in the past but IMO this was the best we have seen. My hope is they do not trade him particularly for beans. Maybe all he could be is on a Channing Frye or Trevor Ariza level -- but they were two fine pros with good careers we let go of for nothing.

This team has been rudderless for the better part of the three years that Frank has been a member. Honachek, Rambis, Fizdale, Miller. He is still the best defender on the team, and has shown higher confidence in his offense. Under this new regime, where defense is so highly valued, it would be a mistake to move off from Frank. It's interesting how he was projected to be the starting PG, to becoming the team Pariah before the season even begins. Let's not be the same ol' Knicks (Knicks fans?). If they're still working with Knox and DSJ, Frank's development should be just as important.

Yep, I never understood the 'trade Frank for a 2nd rounder'- why?! You can buy a second rounder, we have enough of them. If you can't getting anything of value, you keep and develop him.

Frank is a bit of a werewolf in that he seems to have a monster game or two once a month, then just when you get excited he vanishes again. I still have hope for him- I liked how he stepped up in the Mavs games, maybe he is the kind of player that steps up in the playoffs. He also seems to have a winning impact rather than empty stats (when he plays well it has a positive impact).

A little Frank to help you sleep tonight

For some reason, in most of Frank's shot attempts, the cameraman doesnt show Frank's elevation on his jumper. Which is important. They didnt do that when Frank was playing D. The quality of his defenders is worth factoring in as well.

I do like that Frank is upping the difficulty level, from whst we've seen in older workouts. But you wonder if spending some time at an IMG like facility in the US, might have paid more dividends. Year 4, maybe time to try something different.

BigDaddyG wrote:Macri and his co-host made a good point on the last KFS podcast. The modified two-way contract rule this year doesn't do any favors for Frank or DSJ. If Harper comes in hot, there's less of an incentive to send him down early.

**** favors, those 2 guys need to step up, and if they can't, good riddance.

Condensed schedule and lots of players given minutes should be a counter to that argument

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:Macri and his co-host made a good point on the last KFS podcast. The modified two-way contract rule this year doesn't do any favors for Frank or DSJ. If Harper comes in hot, there's less of an incentive to send him down early.

**** favors, those 2 guys need to step up, and if they can't, good riddance.

Condensed schedule and lots of players given minutes should be a counter to that argument