martin wrote:

Welpee wrote:Couple of other items about Toppin, I think he's one of those late bloomers who did a prep year after high school and red shirted his freshman year of college. I think he also had a late growth spurt. Do you think those factors could impact his lack of defense at his point of his career?

It's the opposite. Obi had an extra 2 years of coaching and he STILL couldn't learn defense

martin wrote:

Uptown wrote:

martin wrote:

Uptown wrote:If Toppin is available at 8, you take him and dont think twice! That would be a great value pick! He is a true stretch 4 and in a pick and roll-centric-NBA, Toppin could average 20 pts per right out the gate. The best part of his offensive game is, unlike Randle, he doesn't need to massage the ball for 7-10 seconds before trying to create offense for himself.

He is an elite athlete, and is one of the most explosive players in the draft. For those worried about his defense, just keep in mind, we will have one of the best defensive coaches in the league who will be creating the defensive system. I'm sure Thibs will coach-him up and put him in situations where he can be at least average on the defensive end not to mention the goal would be to surround him with elite defensive players. Keep mind, Paul Pierce wasn't an elite defensive player by any stretch and managed to win a chip playing for Thibs (Thibs was the defensive coach in Boston) playing alongside defensive players like KG and Rondo.

In the right situation, with the right players around him, he can flourish. In the wrong system, he will be exposed. If the Knicks take him, I have to believe there is a plan. With that said, I would be surprised he is there at 8.

For me there is a large gap between not knowing what to do defensively and not being an elite defender. Your PF/C combo has to direct traffic and there is no way Obi is capable of doing that.

Can't move feet, can't defend perimeter, can be overwhelmed in post, prob not smart enough to be a good enough weak side defender.

I hear what you are saying, and it does look bad! But I'm looking at Obi from a coaches perspective. I've been a HS coach for the last 4 years (Last year was my last) and there are clear issues with his technique that can be improved with coaching, repetition and film work. Case n Point, just look at the first 3 defensive plays on the youtube video. The 1st 25 seconds. That's a technique issue.

I used to train my middle school girls over the summer, one of the first defensive techniques we used to teach them was chopping their feet, and coming to a jump stop with a hand up in close-out drills. The 1st two plays he got way too close to the defender and the last play Obi ran at the shooter like football player would trying to make a tackle. It's laughable. Either he has never been taught how to properly close out, sit down, and properly angle his defender to the baseline or its a drill that Anthony Grant, coach of Dayton didn't incorporate consistently. Go watch film of the Villanova kids and you can see the practice drills in their games. You can see the practice habits. The jump stops in the paint with the ball, the pivoting, the back cuts, the close outs, etc. You think its ironic that Kyle Lowry, Mikal Bridges, Siddiq Bey and Josh Hart are so good fundamentally on the offensive and defensive ends of the ball?

Obi will never be a lock down defender or anything close to it! But there is no way he will look that bad with proper coaching. He needs a coach that is willing to break Obi down and build him back up with basic defensive fundamentals, how to use angles, use the baselines and use his help defenders. He also needs a coach that will hold him accountable.

Do you remember this quote from Amare back in 2013..."I've never been taught defense in my whole career. To now have a coach that actually teaches defense and teaches strategies and knows positioning and posture and how to guard different plays is going to be helpful. I'm going to take it as a challenge, accept the challenge and try to improve as a player."

I think some of this may be true of Obi. Not sure how much of an emphazised was placed on the defensive side of the ball while he was training. Clearly not much.
Obviously, Amare didn't accept the challenge the was he should have, but Amare was already damaged goods at the point...But watching Obi on the defensive end, I see clear gaps in his defensive training, understanding and habits. Maybe I just have a coaches mentality, thinking anybody can be fixed..lol.

He went to a sports prep HS and then spent 2 years in college and will be 23 years old soon. At what point do you say that he has enough coaching and just doesn't get it as a player?

It could be that he just doesn't get it and is lazy on the defensive end. I could be dead wrong. But just because a player spent time in prep school and is 23 years old doesn't mean he was being coached properly. All coaching isn't good coaching. I can tell you, on the HS level, there is a limited amount of time we had with the kids on the court, (never anytime for much needed one-on-one fundamental training). About 3-4 weeks of training/practice (No more than 2 hours a day although a lot of coaches break the rules anyway) before our first pre-season game and then a week later we are playing games and holiday tournaments. The summers used to be a time to really dig-in, study individual game film and properly train and get into the fundamentals but most of the players would rather play AAU so they can play in showcase-exposure tournaments in front of college coaches.

Neither of us have had a opportunity to watch his practices to see what's being emphasized and whats not. The only evidence we have is watching the games. And watching him play, the gaps in his defensive fundamentals is evident. That could be his fault or coaching. I suspect its a mix of both.

Uptown wrote:

martin wrote:

Uptown wrote:

martin wrote:

Uptown wrote:If Toppin is available at 8, you take him and dont think twice! That would be a great value pick! He is a true stretch 4 and in a pick and roll-centric-NBA, Toppin could average 20 pts per right out the gate. The best part of his offensive game is, unlike Randle, he doesn't need to massage the ball for 7-10 seconds before trying to create offense for himself.

He is an elite athlete, and is one of the most explosive players in the draft. For those worried about his defense, just keep in mind, we will have one of the best defensive coaches in the league who will be creating the defensive system. I'm sure Thibs will coach-him up and put him in situations where he can be at least average on the defensive end not to mention the goal would be to surround him with elite defensive players. Keep mind, Paul Pierce wasn't an elite defensive player by any stretch and managed to win a chip playing for Thibs (Thibs was the defensive coach in Boston) playing alongside defensive players like KG and Rondo.

In the right situation, with the right players around him, he can flourish. In the wrong system, he will be exposed. If the Knicks take him, I have to believe there is a plan. With that said, I would be surprised he is there at 8.

For me there is a large gap between not knowing what to do defensively and not being an elite defender. Your PF/C combo has to direct traffic and there is no way Obi is capable of doing that.

Can't move feet, can't defend perimeter, can be overwhelmed in post, prob not smart enough to be a good enough weak side defender.

I hear what you are saying, and it does look bad! But I'm looking at Obi from a coaches perspective. I've been a HS coach for the last 4 years (Last year was my last) and there are clear issues with his technique that can be improved with coaching, repetition and film work. Case n Point, just look at the first 3 defensive plays on the youtube video. The 1st 25 seconds. That's a technique issue.

I used to train my middle school girls over the summer, one of the first defensive techniques we used to teach them was chopping their feet, and coming to a jump stop with a hand up in close-out drills. The 1st two plays he got way too close to the defender and the last play Obi ran at the shooter like football player would trying to make a tackle. It's laughable. Either he has never been taught how to properly close out, sit down, and properly angle his defender to the baseline or its a drill that Anthony Grant, coach of Dayton didn't incorporate consistently. Go watch film of the Villanova kids and you can see the practice drills in their games. You can see the practice habits. The jump stops in the paint with the ball, the pivoting, the back cuts, the close outs, etc. You think its ironic that Kyle Lowry, Mikal Bridges, Siddiq Bey and Josh Hart are so good fundamentally on the offensive and defensive ends of the ball?

Obi will never be a lock down defender or anything close to it! But there is no way he will look that bad with proper coaching. He needs a coach that is willing to break Obi down and build him back up with basic defensive fundamentals, how to use angles, use the baselines and use his help defenders. He also needs a coach that will hold him accountable.

Do you remember this quote from Amare back in 2013..."I've never been taught defense in my whole career. To now have a coach that actually teaches defense and teaches strategies and knows positioning and posture and how to guard different plays is going to be helpful. I'm going to take it as a challenge, accept the challenge and try to improve as a player."

I think some of this may be true of Obi. Not sure how much of an emphazised was placed on the defensive side of the ball while he was training. Clearly not much.
Obviously, Amare didn't accept the challenge the was he should have, but Amare was already damaged goods at the point...But watching Obi on the defensive end, I see clear gaps in his defensive training, understanding and habits. Maybe I just have a coaches mentality, thinking anybody can be fixed..lol.

He went to a sports prep HS and then spent 2 years in college and will be 23 years old soon. At what point do you say that he has enough coaching and just doesn't get it as a player?

It could be that he just doesn't get it and is lazy on the defensive end. I could be dead wrong. But just because a player spent time in prep school and is 23 years old doesn't mean he was being coached properly. All coaching isn't good coaching. I can tell you, on the HS level, there is a limited amount of time we had with the kids on the court, (never anytime for much needed one-on-one fundamental training). About 3-4 weeks of training/practice (No more than 2 hours a day although a lot of coaches break the rules anyway) before our first pre-season game and then a week later we are playing games and holiday tournaments. The summers used to be a time to really dig-in, study individual game film and properly train and get into the fundamentals but most of the players would rather play AAU so they can play in showcase-exposure tournaments in front of college coaches.

Neither of us have had a opportunity to watch his practices to see what's being emphasized and whats not. The only evidence we have is watching the games. And watching him play, the gaps in his defensive fundamentals is evident. That could be his fault or coaching. I suspect its a mix of both.

I would rather look at the fact that he progressed from a player with zero D-1 offers in H.S. to a lottery pick. You don't do that by just showing up.

Welpee wrote:

Uptown wrote:

martin wrote:

Uptown wrote:

martin wrote:

Uptown wrote:If Toppin is available at 8, you take him and dont think twice! That would be a great value pick! He is a true stretch 4 and in a pick and roll-centric-NBA, Toppin could average 20 pts per right out the gate. The best part of his offensive game is, unlike Randle, he doesn't need to massage the ball for 7-10 seconds before trying to create offense for himself.

He is an elite athlete, and is one of the most explosive players in the draft. For those worried about his defense, just keep in mind, we will have one of the best defensive coaches in the league who will be creating the defensive system. I'm sure Thibs will coach-him up and put him in situations where he can be at least average on the defensive end not to mention the goal would be to surround him with elite defensive players. Keep mind, Paul Pierce wasn't an elite defensive player by any stretch and managed to win a chip playing for Thibs (Thibs was the defensive coach in Boston) playing alongside defensive players like KG and Rondo.

In the right situation, with the right players around him, he can flourish. In the wrong system, he will be exposed. If the Knicks take him, I have to believe there is a plan. With that said, I would be surprised he is there at 8.

For me there is a large gap between not knowing what to do defensively and not being an elite defender. Your PF/C combo has to direct traffic and there is no way Obi is capable of doing that.

Can't move feet, can't defend perimeter, can be overwhelmed in post, prob not smart enough to be a good enough weak side defender.

I hear what you are saying, and it does look bad! But I'm looking at Obi from a coaches perspective. I've been a HS coach for the last 4 years (Last year was my last) and there are clear issues with his technique that can be improved with coaching, repetition and film work. Case n Point, just look at the first 3 defensive plays on the youtube video. The 1st 25 seconds. That's a technique issue.

I used to train my middle school girls over the summer, one of the first defensive techniques we used to teach them was chopping their feet, and coming to a jump stop with a hand up in close-out drills. The 1st two plays he got way too close to the defender and the last play Obi ran at the shooter like football player would trying to make a tackle. It's laughable. Either he has never been taught how to properly close out, sit down, and properly angle his defender to the baseline or its a drill that Anthony Grant, coach of Dayton didn't incorporate consistently. Go watch film of the Villanova kids and you can see the practice drills in their games. You can see the practice habits. The jump stops in the paint with the ball, the pivoting, the back cuts, the close outs, etc. You think its ironic that Kyle Lowry, Mikal Bridges, Siddiq Bey and Josh Hart are so good fundamentally on the offensive and defensive ends of the ball?

Obi will never be a lock down defender or anything close to it! But there is no way he will look that bad with proper coaching. He needs a coach that is willing to break Obi down and build him back up with basic defensive fundamentals, how to use angles, use the baselines and use his help defenders. He also needs a coach that will hold him accountable.

Do you remember this quote from Amare back in 2013..."I've never been taught defense in my whole career. To now have a coach that actually teaches defense and teaches strategies and knows positioning and posture and how to guard different plays is going to be helpful. I'm going to take it as a challenge, accept the challenge and try to improve as a player."

I think some of this may be true of Obi. Not sure how much of an emphazised was placed on the defensive side of the ball while he was training. Clearly not much.
Obviously, Amare didn't accept the challenge the was he should have, but Amare was already damaged goods at the point...But watching Obi on the defensive end, I see clear gaps in his defensive training, understanding and habits. Maybe I just have a coaches mentality, thinking anybody can be fixed..lol.

He went to a sports prep HS and then spent 2 years in college and will be 23 years old soon. At what point do you say that he has enough coaching and just doesn't get it as a player?

It could be that he just doesn't get it and is lazy on the defensive end. I could be dead wrong. But just because a player spent time in prep school and is 23 years old doesn't mean he was being coached properly. All coaching isn't good coaching. I can tell you, on the HS level, there is a limited amount of time we had with the kids on the court, (never anytime for much needed one-on-one fundamental training). About 3-4 weeks of training/practice (No more than 2 hours a day although a lot of coaches break the rules anyway) before our first pre-season game and then a week later we are playing games and holiday tournaments. The summers used to be a time to really dig-in, study individual game film and properly train and get into the fundamentals but most of the players would rather play AAU so they can play in showcase-exposure tournaments in front of college coaches.

Neither of us have had a opportunity to watch his practices to see what's being emphasized and whats not. The only evidence we have is watching the games. And watching him play, the gaps in his defensive fundamentals is evident. That could be his fault or coaching. I suspect its a mix of both.

Not sure if it's less laziness and more about lack of emphasis. Toppin didn't play for Kentucky with 5-6 other future NBA 1st round draft picks. He played on a mid-major who relied a lot on him offensively to both score to open things up for his teammates. It's not unusual for players in that situation to not put as much emphasis on the other side of the ball (not saying it's right). He's already carrying a significant load for the team.

I would rather look at the fact that he progressed from a player with zero D-1 offers in H.S. to a lottery pick. You don't do that by just showing up.

Lack or emphasis, lack of focus at times and also lack accountability from the coaches. A missed assignment on Duke or Kentucky may lead to being benched for a portion of the game because they have the depth. Not so much at Dayton.

Agreed on his trajectory...Obi has gotten better every year for the past 3-4 years or so and that's always a good thing coming into the draft. It would be one thing if we are making a case for him to be the #1 overall pick. But, @ 8, if he's there, (which I would highly doubt) you take him regardless. Even at the very top of the draft, every single prospect has multiple warts and weaknesses from poor shooting, poor defense, anemic offensive numbers, an inability to create off the dribble, etc....

Welpee wrote:

Uptown wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Uptown wrote:

martin wrote:

Uptown wrote:

martin wrote:

Uptown wrote:If Toppin is available at 8, you take him and dont think twice! That would be a great value pick! He is a true stretch 4 and in a pick and roll-centric-NBA, Toppin could average 20 pts per right out the gate. The best part of his offensive game is, unlike Randle, he doesn't need to massage the ball for 7-10 seconds before trying to create offense for himself.

He is an elite athlete, and is one of the most explosive players in the draft. For those worried about his defense, just keep in mind, we will have one of the best defensive coaches in the league who will be creating the defensive system. I'm sure Thibs will coach-him up and put him in situations where he can be at least average on the defensive end not to mention the goal would be to surround him with elite defensive players. Keep mind, Paul Pierce wasn't an elite defensive player by any stretch and managed to win a chip playing for Thibs (Thibs was the defensive coach in Boston) playing alongside defensive players like KG and Rondo.

In the right situation, with the right players around him, he can flourish. In the wrong system, he will be exposed. If the Knicks take him, I have to believe there is a plan. With that said, I would be surprised he is there at 8.

For me there is a large gap between not knowing what to do defensively and not being an elite defender. Your PF/C combo has to direct traffic and there is no way Obi is capable of doing that.

Can't move feet, can't defend perimeter, can be overwhelmed in post, prob not smart enough to be a good enough weak side defender.

I hear what you are saying, and it does look bad! But I'm looking at Obi from a coaches perspective. I've been a HS coach for the last 4 years (Last year was my last) and there are clear issues with his technique that can be improved with coaching, repetition and film work. Case n Point, just look at the first 3 defensive plays on the youtube video. The 1st 25 seconds. That's a technique issue.

I used to train my middle school girls over the summer, one of the first defensive techniques we used to teach them was chopping their feet, and coming to a jump stop with a hand up in close-out drills. The 1st two plays he got way too close to the defender and the last play Obi ran at the shooter like football player would trying to make a tackle. It's laughable. Either he has never been taught how to properly close out, sit down, and properly angle his defender to the baseline or its a drill that Anthony Grant, coach of Dayton didn't incorporate consistently. Go watch film of the Villanova kids and you can see the practice drills in their games. You can see the practice habits. The jump stops in the paint with the ball, the pivoting, the back cuts, the close outs, etc. You think its ironic that Kyle Lowry, Mikal Bridges, Siddiq Bey and Josh Hart are so good fundamentally on the offensive and defensive ends of the ball?

Obi will never be a lock down defender or anything close to it! But there is no way he will look that bad with proper coaching. He needs a coach that is willing to break Obi down and build him back up with basic defensive fundamentals, how to use angles, use the baselines and use his help defenders. He also needs a coach that will hold him accountable.

Do you remember this quote from Amare back in 2013..."I've never been taught defense in my whole career. To now have a coach that actually teaches defense and teaches strategies and knows positioning and posture and how to guard different plays is going to be helpful. I'm going to take it as a challenge, accept the challenge and try to improve as a player."

I think some of this may be true of Obi. Not sure how much of an emphazised was placed on the defensive side of the ball while he was training. Clearly not much.
Obviously, Amare didn't accept the challenge the was he should have, but Amare was already damaged goods at the point...But watching Obi on the defensive end, I see clear gaps in his defensive training, understanding and habits. Maybe I just have a coaches mentality, thinking anybody can be fixed..lol.

He went to a sports prep HS and then spent 2 years in college and will be 23 years old soon. At what point do you say that he has enough coaching and just doesn't get it as a player?

It could be that he just doesn't get it and is lazy on the defensive end. I could be dead wrong. But just because a player spent time in prep school and is 23 years old doesn't mean he was being coached properly. All coaching isn't good coaching. I can tell you, on the HS level, there is a limited amount of time we had with the kids on the court, (never anytime for much needed one-on-one fundamental training). About 3-4 weeks of training/practice (No more than 2 hours a day although a lot of coaches break the rules anyway) before our first pre-season game and then a week later we are playing games and holiday tournaments. The summers used to be a time to really dig-in, study individual game film and properly train and get into the fundamentals but most of the players would rather play AAU so they can play in showcase-exposure tournaments in front of college coaches.

Neither of us have had a opportunity to watch his practices to see what's being emphasized and whats not. The only evidence we have is watching the games. And watching him play, the gaps in his defensive fundamentals is evident. That could be his fault or coaching. I suspect its a mix of both.

Not sure if it's less laziness and more about lack of emphasis. Toppin didn't play for Kentucky with 5-6 other future NBA 1st round draft picks. He played on a mid-major who relied a lot on him offensively to both score to open things up for his teammates. It's not unusual for players in that situation to not put as much emphasis on the other side of the ball (not saying it's right). He's already carrying a significant load for the team.

I would rather look at the fact that he progressed from a player with zero D-1 offers in H.S. to a lottery pick. You don't do that by just showing up.

Lack or emphasis, lack of focus at time and also some lack accountability from the coaches. A missed assignment on Duke or Kentucky may lead to being benched for a portion of the game because they have the depth. Not so much at Dayton.

Agreed on his trajectory...Obi has gotten better every year for the past 3-4 years or so and that's always a good thing coming into the draft. It would be one thing if we are making a case for him to be the #1 overall pick. But, @ 8, if he's there, (which I would highly doubt) you take him regardless. Even at the very top of the draft, every single prospect has multiple warts and weaknesses from poor shooting, poor defense, anemic offensive numbers, an inability to create off the dribble, etc....

Agreed. And if not Toppin (if available) who? If we go through this exercise with everyone likely to be available at 8 we should just forfeit the pick because nobody is going to be satisfactory. It will be interesting.

Welpee wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Uptown wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Uptown wrote:

martin wrote:

Uptown wrote:

martin wrote:

Uptown wrote:If Toppin is available at 8, you take him and dont think twice! That would be a great value pick! He is a true stretch 4 and in a pick and roll-centric-NBA, Toppin could average 20 pts per right out the gate. The best part of his offensive game is, unlike Randle, he doesn't need to massage the ball for 7-10 seconds before trying to create offense for himself.

He is an elite athlete, and is one of the most explosive players in the draft. For those worried about his defense, just keep in mind, we will have one of the best defensive coaches in the league who will be creating the defensive system. I'm sure Thibs will coach-him up and put him in situations where he can be at least average on the defensive end not to mention the goal would be to surround him with elite defensive players. Keep mind, Paul Pierce wasn't an elite defensive player by any stretch and managed to win a chip playing for Thibs (Thibs was the defensive coach in Boston) playing alongside defensive players like KG and Rondo.

In the right situation, with the right players around him, he can flourish. In the wrong system, he will be exposed. If the Knicks take him, I have to believe there is a plan. With that said, I would be surprised he is there at 8.

For me there is a large gap between not knowing what to do defensively and not being an elite defender. Your PF/C combo has to direct traffic and there is no way Obi is capable of doing that.

Can't move feet, can't defend perimeter, can be overwhelmed in post, prob not smart enough to be a good enough weak side defender.

I hear what you are saying, and it does look bad! But I'm looking at Obi from a coaches perspective. I've been a HS coach for the last 4 years (Last year was my last) and there are clear issues with his technique that can be improved with coaching, repetition and film work. Case n Point, just look at the first 3 defensive plays on the youtube video. The 1st 25 seconds. That's a technique issue.

I used to train my middle school girls over the summer, one of the first defensive techniques we used to teach them was chopping their feet, and coming to a jump stop with a hand up in close-out drills. The 1st two plays he got way too close to the defender and the last play Obi ran at the shooter like football player would trying to make a tackle. It's laughable. Either he has never been taught how to properly close out, sit down, and properly angle his defender to the baseline or its a drill that Anthony Grant, coach of Dayton didn't incorporate consistently. Go watch film of the Villanova kids and you can see the practice drills in their games. You can see the practice habits. The jump stops in the paint with the ball, the pivoting, the back cuts, the close outs, etc. You think its ironic that Kyle Lowry, Mikal Bridges, Siddiq Bey and Josh Hart are so good fundamentally on the offensive and defensive ends of the ball?

Obi will never be a lock down defender or anything close to it! But there is no way he will look that bad with proper coaching. He needs a coach that is willing to break Obi down and build him back up with basic defensive fundamentals, how to use angles, use the baselines and use his help defenders. He also needs a coach that will hold him accountable.

Do you remember this quote from Amare back in 2013..."I've never been taught defense in my whole career. To now have a coach that actually teaches defense and teaches strategies and knows positioning and posture and how to guard different plays is going to be helpful. I'm going to take it as a challenge, accept the challenge and try to improve as a player."

I think some of this may be true of Obi. Not sure how much of an emphazised was placed on the defensive side of the ball while he was training. Clearly not much.
Obviously, Amare didn't accept the challenge the was he should have, but Amare was already damaged goods at the point...But watching Obi on the defensive end, I see clear gaps in his defensive training, understanding and habits. Maybe I just have a coaches mentality, thinking anybody can be fixed..lol.

He went to a sports prep HS and then spent 2 years in college and will be 23 years old soon. At what point do you say that he has enough coaching and just doesn't get it as a player?

It could be that he just doesn't get it and is lazy on the defensive end. I could be dead wrong. But just because a player spent time in prep school and is 23 years old doesn't mean he was being coached properly. All coaching isn't good coaching. I can tell you, on the HS level, there is a limited amount of time we had with the kids on the court, (never anytime for much needed one-on-one fundamental training). About 3-4 weeks of training/practice (No more than 2 hours a day although a lot of coaches break the rules anyway) before our first pre-season game and then a week later we are playing games and holiday tournaments. The summers used to be a time to really dig-in, study individual game film and properly train and get into the fundamentals but most of the players would rather play AAU so they can play in showcase-exposure tournaments in front of college coaches.

Neither of us have had a opportunity to watch his practices to see what's being emphasized and whats not. The only evidence we have is watching the games. And watching him play, the gaps in his defensive fundamentals is evident. That could be his fault or coaching. I suspect its a mix of both.

Not sure if it's less laziness and more about lack of emphasis. Toppin didn't play for Kentucky with 5-6 other future NBA 1st round draft picks. He played on a mid-major who relied a lot on him offensively to both score to open things up for his teammates. It's not unusual for players in that situation to not put as much emphasis on the other side of the ball (not saying it's right). He's already carrying a significant load for the team.

I would rather look at the fact that he progressed from a player with zero D-1 offers in H.S. to a lottery pick. You don't do that by just showing up.

Lack or emphasis, lack of focus at time and also some lack accountability from the coaches. A missed assignment on Duke or Kentucky may lead to being benched for a portion of the game because they have the depth. Not so much at Dayton.

Agreed on his trajectory...Obi has gotten better every year for the past 3-4 years or so and that's always a good thing coming into the draft. It would be one thing if we are making a case for him to be the #1 overall pick. But, @ 8, if he's there, (which I would highly doubt) you take him regardless. Even at the very top of the draft, every single prospect has multiple warts and weaknesses from poor shooting, poor defense, anemic offensive numbers, an inability to create off the dribble, etc....

Agreed. And if not Toppin (if available) who? If we go through this exercise with everyone likely to be available at 8 we should just forfeit the pick because nobody is going to be satisfactory. It will be interesting.

That's why I'd say just draft him and try to trade down. You'd have to feel obligated to take Obi if he's at 8. I see a Marcus Fizer type tho, and would rather go for more quality wing/guard depth. We might not even be able to trade down, because other teams see his warts. If he falls down to us, your have to believe there's a legitimate reason for it. The again, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Grabbing Obi at #8 wouldn't be the worst problem in the world to have.

Would you trade #8 to Boston for #14 and 26?

What else is Boston offering besides those picks to move up?

Remember he was the best player on the best team in college basketball. He has a lot of high caliber nba skills— he’s a lock not to bust imho.

Uptown wrote:

Welpee wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Uptown wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Uptown wrote:

martin wrote:

Uptown wrote:

martin wrote:

Uptown wrote:If Toppin is available at 8, you take him and dont think twice! That would be a great value pick! He is a true stretch 4 and in a pick and roll-centric-NBA, Toppin could average 20 pts per right out the gate. The best part of his offensive game is, unlike Randle, he doesn't need to massage the ball for 7-10 seconds before trying to create offense for himself.

He is an elite athlete, and is one of the most explosive players in the draft. For those worried about his defense, just keep in mind, we will have one of the best defensive coaches in the league who will be creating the defensive system. I'm sure Thibs will coach-him up and put him in situations where he can be at least average on the defensive end not to mention the goal would be to surround him with elite defensive players. Keep mind, Paul Pierce wasn't an elite defensive player by any stretch and managed to win a chip playing for Thibs (Thibs was the defensive coach in Boston) playing alongside defensive players like KG and Rondo.

In the right situation, with the right players around him, he can flourish. In the wrong system, he will be exposed. If the Knicks take him, I have to believe there is a plan. With that said, I would be surprised he is there at 8.

For me there is a large gap between not knowing what to do defensively and not being an elite defender. Your PF/C combo has to direct traffic and there is no way Obi is capable of doing that.

Can't move feet, can't defend perimeter, can be overwhelmed in post, prob not smart enough to be a good enough weak side defender.

I hear what you are saying, and it does look bad! But I'm looking at Obi from a coaches perspective. I've been a HS coach for the last 4 years (Last year was my last) and there are clear issues with his technique that can be improved with coaching, repetition and film work. Case n Point, just look at the first 3 defensive plays on the youtube video. The 1st 25 seconds. That's a technique issue.

I used to train my middle school girls over the summer, one of the first defensive techniques we used to teach them was chopping their feet, and coming to a jump stop with a hand up in close-out drills. The 1st two plays he got way too close to the defender and the last play Obi ran at the shooter like football player would trying to make a tackle. It's laughable. Either he has never been taught how to properly close out, sit down, and properly angle his defender to the baseline or its a drill that Anthony Grant, coach of Dayton didn't incorporate consistently. Go watch film of the Villanova kids and you can see the practice drills in their games. You can see the practice habits. The jump stops in the paint with the ball, the pivoting, the back cuts, the close outs, etc. You think its ironic that Kyle Lowry, Mikal Bridges, Siddiq Bey and Josh Hart are so good fundamentally on the offensive and defensive ends of the ball?

Obi will never be a lock down defender or anything close to it! But there is no way he will look that bad with proper coaching. He needs a coach that is willing to break Obi down and build him back up with basic defensive fundamentals, how to use angles, use the baselines and use his help defenders. He also needs a coach that will hold him accountable.

Do you remember this quote from Amare back in 2013..."I've never been taught defense in my whole career. To now have a coach that actually teaches defense and teaches strategies and knows positioning and posture and how to guard different plays is going to be helpful. I'm going to take it as a challenge, accept the challenge and try to improve as a player."

I think some of this may be true of Obi. Not sure how much of an emphazised was placed on the defensive side of the ball while he was training. Clearly not much.
Obviously, Amare didn't accept the challenge the was he should have, but Amare was already damaged goods at the point...But watching Obi on the defensive end, I see clear gaps in his defensive training, understanding and habits. Maybe I just have a coaches mentality, thinking anybody can be fixed..lol.

He went to a sports prep HS and then spent 2 years in college and will be 23 years old soon. At what point do you say that he has enough coaching and just doesn't get it as a player?

It could be that he just doesn't get it and is lazy on the defensive end. I could be dead wrong. But just because a player spent time in prep school and is 23 years old doesn't mean he was being coached properly. All coaching isn't good coaching. I can tell you, on the HS level, there is a limited amount of time we had with the kids on the court, (never anytime for much needed one-on-one fundamental training). About 3-4 weeks of training/practice (No more than 2 hours a day although a lot of coaches break the rules anyway) before our first pre-season game and then a week later we are playing games and holiday tournaments. The summers used to be a time to really dig-in, study individual game film and properly train and get into the fundamentals but most of the players would rather play AAU so they can play in showcase-exposure tournaments in front of college coaches.

Neither of us have had a opportunity to watch his practices to see what's being emphasized and whats not. The only evidence we have is watching the games. And watching him play, the gaps in his defensive fundamentals is evident. That could be his fault or coaching. I suspect its a mix of both.

Not sure if it's less laziness and more about lack of emphasis. Toppin didn't play for Kentucky with 5-6 other future NBA 1st round draft picks. He played on a mid-major who relied a lot on him offensively to both score to open things up for his teammates. It's not unusual for players in that situation to not put as much emphasis on the other side of the ball (not saying it's right). He's already carrying a significant load for the team.

I would rather look at the fact that he progressed from a player with zero D-1 offers in H.S. to a lottery pick. You don't do that by just showing up.

Lack or emphasis, lack of focus at time and also some lack accountability from the coaches. A missed assignment on Duke or Kentucky may lead to being benched for a portion of the game because they have the depth. Not so much at Dayton.

Agreed on his trajectory...Obi has gotten better every year for the past 3-4 years or so and that's always a good thing coming into the draft. It would be one thing if we are making a case for him to be the #1 overall pick. But, @ 8, if he's there, (which I would highly doubt) you take him regardless. Even at the very top of the draft, every single prospect has multiple warts and weaknesses from poor shooting, poor defense, anemic offensive numbers, an inability to create off the dribble, etc....

Agreed. And if not Toppin (if available) who? If we go through this exercise with everyone likely to be available at 8 we should just forfeit the pick because nobody is going to be satisfactory. It will be interesting.

That's why I'd say just draft him and try to trade down. You'd have to feel obligated to take Obi if he's at 8. I see a Marcus Fizer type tho, and would rather go for more quality wing/guard depth. We might not even be able to trade down, because other teams see his warts. If he falls down to us, your have to believe there's a legitimate reason for it. The again, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Grabbing Obi at #8 wouldn't be the worst problem in the world to have.

Would you trade #8 to Boston for #14 and 26?

What else is Boston offering besides those picks to move up?

Personally, if Edwards, Ball, Wiseman, Deni, Hayes and Toppin are gone at #8, I'm looking at Lewis or Anthony at that point and both may still be on the board at the end of the lottery. Whatever we do, I don't want Haliburton.

TheGame wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Defitinitely agree- great on offense, but that defense:

One of the podcasts said he looked like a grandpa with bad hips on defense- harsh but true!

LMAO. His defense is so bad he must have been trying to be funny. Please just say no. The last thing we need is a bad defender. We need to build this team on a defensive foundation. This kid looks like Amare on defense.

Welpee wrote:

TheGame wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Defitinitely agree- great on offense, but that defense:

One of the podcasts said he looked like a grandpa with bad hips on defense- harsh but true!

LMAO. His defense is so bad he must have been trying to be funny. Please just say no. The last thing we need is a bad defender. We need to build this team on a defensive foundation. This kid looks like Amare on defense.

He also has drawn comparisons to Amare on offense, which is why he'll go in the upper half of the lottery. Everybody offers who they don't want, who would you take at 8 assuming Edwards, Ball, Wiseman, Deni and Hayes are off the board?

Look if Toppin is there then the Knicks probably draft him because the kid looks like a 20 pt scorer. But I personally would draft Vassell or Nesmith and let some other team try to spend the next 10 years covering for Toppins defensive short-comings.

smackeddog wrote:Defitinitely agree- great on offense, but that defense:

One of the podcasts said he looked like a grandpa with bad hips on defense- harsh but true!

Wow. He was definitely facing the wrong direction quite a bit.