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Knicks, Suns, Pistons, and Raptors interested in signing fred van fleet per shams
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TripleThreat
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8/25/2020  12:08 AM
MS wrote:Honestly we are going to be terrible next season, where does FVV get us? A little more stability at the guard position? Is he enticing free agents I don’t think so.

Next years draft is strong.

He’s playing for a top 3 coach, a top 3 front office and everyone on the team is a true professional. They have 9 guys that can really play, we have 1. Things look very different in a market like NY. I would wait.

You want to offer Dragic and Milshap big money for one year, fine. But, can’t tie up max level money or $25MM a year for a guy that’s not top 40 in the league.

This would be typical Knicks.


With the pandemic, guys will be looking at length of contract. If there's a labor war , and there will be, the entire salary structure today could change radically, probably at a major loss for the NBPA. Guys are going to want to lock in, even at a lower AAV. FVV will get a middle class contract, but interesting enough, it will probably include language to scale to the cap/BRI. What will make a difference will be X amount of money for uprooting your family in the middle of pandemic. If the Knicks offer 1 million per year more in AAV, is that worth dragging your family into a strange place with people dying all around?

The question for the Knicks is going to be this. They will have to get to the cap floor. What's the most efficient way to use that money. The ideal was situations like Robin Lopez and Morris. You sign them, you trade them quickly. The quality of the trade for Lopez was bad, the methodology was not.

Julius Randle was not signed to be some kind of core piece for the Knicks. They had to get to the cap floor and picked a guy who would sign, would sign and not demand max money/max years, who was young enough to still be useful and who might, very slightly, have some possible trade value. The problem is coaches want to win and they'll play the best talent they have, so while Randle gets you to the cap floor, he's blocking minutes you could use to parade a gaggle of UDFAs and G Leaguers and such to see if any pan out. The 76ers and Hinkie were able to uncover Robert Covington with this strategy.

A guy like Randle chews up minutes that could go to developmental fliers and he helps you win just a few more games that have an impact on your lottery chances later. Since there's only value in short term deals with guys like this, they play like total ****ing *******s to drive up their counting stats for their next contract.

Every non franchise type free agent has to be run through the same checklist

1) Can he help immediately?
2) Is he still in the prime of his career? Will any of said contract encompass his likely decline phase?
3) Will he garner immediate trade value based on his production and contract?
4) Will he provide positive or negative value when considering opportunity costs for minutes played. ( Minutes to be distributed and playing time are very valuable. Too many teams waste minutes that don't serve either long term nor short term goals)

I know this sounds ****ed up, but John Walls contract, factoring in the pandemic, is actually surface level more valuable than FVV's projected one will be.

The draft assets coming with Wall's dead contract would offer a type of cost certainty, which you can't get by hoping for a Morris FA signing every offseason.

The Knicks should NOT attempt to sign FVV. Only pretend so to drive up his contract for other teams. The Knicks, I can't believe I'm ****ing saying this, should trade for John Wall's contract. NY is so talent poor right now, they need to maximize cost certainty with incoming picks. Wall's contract will scale down as the cap lowers and insurance stands a good chance of eating a good portion of what's still owed to him.

Because of market dysfunction in the NBA, a bad contract right now is worth more to a long standing bad team like Knicks more than a relatively productive guy like Fred Van Vleet. Bizarre.

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fwk00
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8/25/2020  1:50 AM
TripleThreat wrote:
MS wrote:Honestly we are going to be terrible next season, where does FVV get us? A little more stability at the guard position? Is he enticing free agents I don’t think so.

Next years draft is strong.

He’s playing for a top 3 coach, a top 3 front office and everyone on the team is a true professional. They have 9 guys that can really play, we have 1. Things look very different in a market like NY. I would wait.

You want to offer Dragic and Milshap big money for one year, fine. But, can’t tie up max level money or $25MM a year for a guy that’s not top 40 in the league.

This would be typical Knicks.


With the pandemic, guys will be looking at length of contract. If there's a labor war , and there will be, the entire salary structure today could change radically, probably at a major loss for the NBPA. Guys are going to want to lock in, even at a lower AAV. FVV will get a middle class contract, but interesting enough, it will probably include language to scale to the cap/BRI. What will make a difference will be X amount of money for uprooting your family in the middle of pandemic. If the Knicks offer 1 million per year more in AAV, is that worth dragging your family into a strange place with people dying all around?

The question for the Knicks is going to be this. They will have to get to the cap floor. What's the most efficient way to use that money. The ideal was situations like Robin Lopez and Morris. You sign them, you trade them quickly. The quality of the trade for Lopez was bad, the methodology was not.

Julius Randle was not signed to be some kind of core piece for the Knicks. They had to get to the cap floor and picked a guy who would sign, would sign and not demand max money/max years, who was young enough to still be useful and who might, very slightly, have some possible trade value. The problem is coaches want to win and they'll play the best talent they have, so while Randle gets you to the cap floor, he's blocking minutes you could use to parade a gaggle of UDFAs and G Leaguers and such to see if any pan out. The 76ers and Hinkie were able to uncover Robert Covington with this strategy.

A guy like Randle chews up minutes that could go to developmental fliers and he helps you win just a few more games that have an impact on your lottery chances later. Since there's only value in short term deals with guys like this, they play like total ****ing *******s to drive up their counting stats for their next contract.

Every non franchise type free agent has to be run through the same checklist

1) Can he help immediately?
2) Is he still in the prime of his career? Will any of said contract encompass his likely decline phase?
3) Will he garner immediate trade value based on his production and contract?
4) Will he provide positive or negative value when considering opportunity costs for minutes played. ( Minutes to be distributed and playing time are very valuable. Too many teams waste minutes that don't serve either long term nor short term goals)

I know this sounds ****ed up, but John Walls contract, factoring in the pandemic, is actually surface level more valuable than FVV's projected one will be.

The draft assets coming with Wall's dead contract would offer a type of cost certainty, which you can't get by hoping for a Morris FA signing every offseason.

The Knicks should NOT attempt to sign FVV. Only pretend so to drive up his contract for other teams. The Knicks, I can't believe I'm ****ing saying this, should trade for John Wall's contract. NY is so talent poor right now, they need to maximize cost certainty with incoming picks. Wall's contract will scale down as the cap lowers and insurance stands a good chance of eating a good portion of what's still owed to him.

Because of market dysfunction in the NBA, a bad contract right now is worth more to a long standing bad team like Knicks more than a relatively productive guy like Fred Van Vleet. Bizarre.

We agree on FVV. I think MS's observations are spot on. FVV simply doesn't move the needle enough nor sustainably over time. Nobody is going to rush to play with him and although there's an illusion that he stabilizes the team I'm not seeing it.

I think your non-franchise FA list is pretty interesting but then you lose me with Jon Wall's contract mostly because the devil is in the details.

First Washington doesn't have much in terms of lottery picks to make it worthwhile.

Second, even if insurance pays the salary, I think the cap hit remains.

Conceptually, you are on the right track though. I'm assuming you are looking to dump players who eat minutes but get us nowhere (eg Randle, DSJ, Knox, Portis, Ellington,...). Wall would accomplish that for sure. I just don't see the value-added payoff, though.

I could see Philly picking up the phone for Horford who wouldn't steal anyone's minutes. Griffin, Bledsoe, Paul, Barnes, DeRozen, Aldrich, Gay, Lowry, and Conley might all come with a value-add pick or two.

TripleThreat
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8/25/2020  3:05 AM
fwk00 wrote:
First Washington doesn't have much in terms of lottery picks to make it worthwhile.

Second, even if insurance pays the salary, I think the cap hit remains.


Knicks wouldn't be getting lottery picks. The Knicks would only make the trade if there is a handshake deal with Wall that he never plays a single game while still under that contract. You give him 5 million a year back door to shut up and sit down quietly and avoid being listed through the Chris Bosh Rule. Since you are paying only 20-25 cents on the dollar in cash on the contract, that cash hit will go from 40 million to 10 million a year.

The Knicks would get some protected first round picks and some pick flips but scaled to the actual cash hit, not face value of the contract. That breaks down to two protected first rounders and maybe some other small things. This allows the Wizards to shed Wall but actually have a chance to build around Beal.

You WANT the cap hit to remain. It takes you to the cap floor or somewhat close to it. You are no longer under pressure to sign a Portis or a Randle who will eat minutes and **** your lottery chances by helping you get a few more wins. You'll also avoid stat padding from guys trying to audition for their next contract. Then you can just cycle all the Kadeem Allens and Luke Kornets and whatnot out there and see if you can find a gem or two.

While it seems counter intuitive, taking in Wall plus some protected first rounders will still have more value than another Randle/Portis combo whom you can't trade for anything useful. Trading for Wall RENTS your cap space. Signing guys like Randle and Portis BURNS your cap space.

Since the Knicks are so talent bereft, it's not like they have any rookies close to a big extension to gum up the works.

smackeddog
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8/25/2020  3:35 AM
This "all or nothing" approach that we must have no players on longer term deals unless they're stars and mustn't sign anyone unless they're a star, will literally leave us with nothing because no star player wants to sign for a team with nothing on it, and you have nothing to trade for anyone. Stop trying to hit the homer, just start building a damn team that's competent and add to it over the seasons. FVV is a start.
Knixkik
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8/25/2020  7:34 AM    LAST EDITED: 8/25/2020  7:36 AM
smackeddog wrote:This "all or nothing" approach that we must have no players on longer term deals unless they're stars and mustn't sign anyone unless they're a star, will literally leave us with nothing because no star player wants to sign for a team with nothing on it, and you have nothing to trade for anyone. Stop trying to hit the homer, just start building a damn team that's competent and add to it over the seasons. FVV is a start.

Yeah this is exactly right. You have to start somewhere. Can’t just wait for stars to sign with a clean slate or wait for rookies to become all stars. You need to eventually add pieces that help forward the process. If we have VanVleet, RJ, Mitch and either Vassell or Nesmith that is a good start in the right direction.

Nalod
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8/25/2020  9:42 AM
I understand when an NBA player talks its often what we want to hear. “Want to win, want to finish my career here, itching to play....”

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29224586/wizards-john-wall-says-110-working-rehab

Wall is 29 years old. The ego is big with all these guys and while its never about the money, its always about the money!
But once the money is there, is the pride not there too?
Look at Melo, He got fat and happy a bit and rather than walk away from the money he Stayed and it looked bad. His “comeback” this season was about making amends. Not with his brand, not with his fans, but for himself?
Wall paid to sit? Will he do that? Is 5mm under the table really going to move the dial for him?

BigDaddyG
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8/25/2020  10:06 AM    LAST EDITED: 8/25/2020  11:16 AM
From Macri:

https://knicksfilmschool.substack.com/p/king-me

According to a league source with knowledge of the Knicks thinking, some members of New York’s front office are “all in” on VanVleet as a free agent target, feeling that he is the best available player on the market. Despite speculation that the front office is not looking to add any long term money to the books, the source said they are planning on being involved in the sweepstakes for the combo guard this October.

I’m also told that the Knicks are prioritizing holding on to as many assets as possible in the year ahead, with the possibility of trading up in the 2021 NBA Draft in mind. It seems the fears about Rose & Co making short-sighted moves have been greatly overstated.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Nalod
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8/25/2020  10:32 AM
“a league source with knowledge of the knicks thinking”.
What a great sentence!!!
smackeddog
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8/25/2020  12:11 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:From Macri:

https://knicksfilmschool.substack.com/p/king-me

According to a league source with knowledge of the Knicks thinking, some members of New York’s front office are “all in” on VanVleet as a free agent target, feeling that he is the best available player on the market. Despite speculation that the front office is not looking to add any long term money to the books, the source said they are planning on being involved in the sweepstakes for the combo guard this October.

I’m also told that the Knicks are prioritizing holding on to as many assets as possible in the year ahead, with the possibility of trading up in the 2021 NBA Draft in mind. It seems the fears about Rose & Co making short-sighted moves have been greatly overstated.

Macri also said in his latest podcasts that his sources have given him the impression that the Knicks might actually be okay sucking this season and might not be going for the big splash (like CP3) that people expect. Think Knicks Daily also said we were looking to keep assets for moving up in the 2021 draft (which makes a lot of sense), so maybe the plan is the 2021 draft after all.

houston20
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8/25/2020  12:19 PM
smackeddog wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:From Macri:

https://knicksfilmschool.substack.com/p/king-me

According to a league source with knowledge of the Knicks thinking, some members of New York’s front office are “all in” on VanVleet as a free agent target, feeling that he is the best available player on the market. Despite speculation that the front office is not looking to add any long term money to the books, the source said they are planning on being involved in the sweepstakes for the combo guard this October.

I’m also told that the Knicks are prioritizing holding on to as many assets as possible in the year ahead, with the possibility of trading up in the 2021 NBA Draft in mind. It seems the fears about Rose & Co making short-sighted moves have been greatly overstated.

Macri also said in his latest podcasts that his sources have given him the impression that the Knicks might actually be okay sucking this season and might not be going for the big splash (like CP3) that people expect. Think Knicks Daily also said we were looking to keep assets for moving up in the 2021 draft (which makes a lot of sense), so maybe the plan is the 2021 draft after all.

What we know about thibs is this he not guy who likes to tank i could see knicks playing average first part of year and collapsing second part of the year . I think thibs gets us 32 wins in first year and that depends who on the roster but days of tanking are over see draft lottery they don't award tanking of any kind anymore unless you have a warriors type of situation.

Knixkik
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8/25/2020  12:31 PM
smackeddog wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:From Macri:

https://knicksfilmschool.substack.com/p/king-me

According to a league source with knowledge of the Knicks thinking, some members of New York’s front office are “all in” on VanVleet as a free agent target, feeling that he is the best available player on the market. Despite speculation that the front office is not looking to add any long term money to the books, the source said they are planning on being involved in the sweepstakes for the combo guard this October.

I’m also told that the Knicks are prioritizing holding on to as many assets as possible in the year ahead, with the possibility of trading up in the 2021 NBA Draft in mind. It seems the fears about Rose & Co making short-sighted moves have been greatly overstated.

Macri also said in his latest podcasts that his sources have given him the impression that the Knicks might actually be okay sucking this season and might not be going for the big splash (like CP3) that people expect. Think Knicks Daily also said we were looking to keep assets for moving up in the 2021 draft (which makes a lot of sense), so maybe the plan is the 2021 draft after all.

I think the plan is to still get better though, while maintaining flexibility with having enough cap space for a max player in the future and all future picks available. Even if they sign VanVleet to a big contract and extend Mitch, the only other players they are married to are RJ, and the picks used this upcoming draft, leaving plenty of space going forward.

martin
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8/25/2020  1:09 PM
smackeddog wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:From Macri:

https://knicksfilmschool.substack.com/p/king-me

According to a league source with knowledge of the Knicks thinking, some members of New York’s front office are “all in” on VanVleet as a free agent target, feeling that he is the best available player on the market. Despite speculation that the front office is not looking to add any long term money to the books, the source said they are planning on being involved in the sweepstakes for the combo guard this October.

I’m also told that the Knicks are prioritizing holding on to as many assets as possible in the year ahead, with the possibility of trading up in the 2021 NBA Draft in mind. It seems the fears about Rose & Co making short-sighted moves have been greatly overstated.

Macri also said in his latest podcasts that his sources have given him the impression that the Knicks might actually be okay sucking this season and might not be going for the big splash (like CP3) that people expect. Think Knicks Daily also said we were looking to keep assets for moving up in the 2021 draft (which makes a lot of sense), so maybe the plan is the 2021 draft after all.

2021 draft seems super top loaded with franchise level talent, so this makes sense.

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knicks1248
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8/25/2020  1:37 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/25/2020  1:38 PM
martin wrote:
smackeddog wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:From Macri:

https://knicksfilmschool.substack.com/p/king-me

According to a league source with knowledge of the Knicks thinking, some members of New York’s front office are “all in” on VanVleet as a free agent target, feeling that he is the best available player on the market. Despite speculation that the front office is not looking to add any long term money to the books, the source said they are planning on being involved in the sweepstakes for the combo guard this October.

I’m also told that the Knicks are prioritizing holding on to as many assets as possible in the year ahead, with the possibility of trading up in the 2021 NBA Draft in mind. It seems the fears about Rose & Co making short-sighted moves have been greatly overstated.

Macri also said in his latest podcasts that his sources have given him the impression that the Knicks might actually be okay sucking this season and might not be going for the big splash (like CP3) that people expect. Think Knicks Daily also said we were looking to keep assets for moving up in the 2021 draft (which makes a lot of sense), so maybe the plan is the 2021 draft after all.

2021 draft seems super top loaded with franchise level talent, so this makes sense.

There's a possibility they may not even be a college basketball season, you see whats going one with some of the conferences in college football, so who knows

ES
Knixkik
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8/25/2020  1:55 PM
martin wrote:
smackeddog wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:From Macri:

https://knicksfilmschool.substack.com/p/king-me

According to a league source with knowledge of the Knicks thinking, some members of New York’s front office are “all in” on VanVleet as a free agent target, feeling that he is the best available player on the market. Despite speculation that the front office is not looking to add any long term money to the books, the source said they are planning on being involved in the sweepstakes for the combo guard this October.

I’m also told that the Knicks are prioritizing holding on to as many assets as possible in the year ahead, with the possibility of trading up in the 2021 NBA Draft in mind. It seems the fears about Rose & Co making short-sighted moves have been greatly overstated.

Macri also said in his latest podcasts that his sources have given him the impression that the Knicks might actually be okay sucking this season and might not be going for the big splash (like CP3) that people expect. Think Knicks Daily also said we were looking to keep assets for moving up in the 2021 draft (which makes a lot of sense), so maybe the plan is the 2021 draft after all.

2021 draft seems super top loaded with franchise level talent, so this makes sense.

We typically see that though. Some of these classes look loaded and then get overhyped. Remember 2014? Wigging and Parker were supposed to be franchise altering players coming out of high school. 2017 was supposed to be loaded at the top. 2018 wasn't viewed as strong, and it's an incredible class. And last year Barrett was viewed as the top player a year before the draft, with no obvious franchise players. Then Zion and Ja really came into their own. I definitely don't really pay attention to that anymore.

technomaster
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8/25/2020  3:53 PM
I think it's good business for the Knicks to be interested in him, but it'll be tough to convince him to 1) leave Toronto and 2) why he should come to the Knicks vs other teams.

Is there any reason to believe Toronto will pull a Miami/Florida Marlins and blow up the team soon after winning a title? Siakim and FVV are the future stars of this team and both should basically get max deals. They had no problem handing over $30m+ to Lowry. But let's say Toronto gets cheap and only offers $25m and these interested teams offer $30m.

Why the Knicks vs the rest?
Suns look like a great option: The Suns already have 2 stars (Booker and Ayton) and probably want a PG that can shoot. Seems like a good fit, esp with a good coach in Monty He won't get top billing as the team star, though (if fame is what he's looking for) and would he want to play alongside a ball dominant guard?

Detroit seems like a worse situation to me - They basically have injury-prone (and not quite so athletic) Blake Griffin. Coach Casey was his coach in Toronto before he got unceremoniously booted.

On the Knicks, at least for 1 season, the Knicks marketing group could make a fair case to say he'd be their featured player and veteran leader. With a lot of draft picks in the coming years, it'll be his team to shape.

“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
TheGame
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8/25/2020  4:17 PM
Van Fleet is not coming here. The Raptors are going to pay him and he loves it there. The only way he leaves is if Raptors don’t offer max but do we really want to be stuck paying Van Fleet $29 million a year for the next four years? I like him if we could get him for $18-$20 mil but he is going to command more. I don’t want to tie up our cap on a player that is really only solid rather than an allstar.
Trust the Process
Knixkik
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8/25/2020  4:44 PM
TheGame wrote:Van Fleet is not coming here. The Raptors are going to pay him and he loves it there. The only way he leaves is if Raptors don’t offer max but do we really want to be stuck paying Van Fleet $29 million a year for the next four years? I like him if we could get him for $18-$20 mil but he is going to command more. I don’t want to tie up our cap on a player that is really only solid rather than an allstar.

A couple of things. Playing devil's advocate because i'm sure he does love it in Toronto, but maybe after winning a title and being alongside Lowry, he's ready for a different challenge? Also, at age 26 who says he's not an all-star soon? He's certainly playing like it now. He's just getting into his prime as far as age and some PGs take a few years to develop. No reason he can't continue to grow his game into his late 20s.

knicks1248
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8/25/2020  4:45 PM
TheGame wrote:Van Fleet is not coming here. The Raptors are going to pay him and he loves it there. The only way he leaves is if Raptors don’t offer max but do we really want to be stuck paying Van Fleet $29 million a year for the next four years? I like him if we could get him for $18-$20 mil but he is going to command more. I don’t want to tie up our cap on a player that is really only solid rather than an allstar.

Who's paying that much for FVV..

ES
BigDaddyG
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8/25/2020  4:50 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
TheGame wrote:Van Fleet is not coming here. The Raptors are going to pay him and he loves it there. The only way he leaves is if Raptors don’t offer max but do we really want to be stuck paying Van Fleet $29 million a year for the next four years? I like him if we could get him for $18-$20 mil but he is going to command more. I don’t want to tie up our cap on a player that is really only solid rather than an allstar.

Who's paying that much for FVV..


I don't think Fred will get that, but...we are going to need to flex with an extreme overpay to even get him to take us into consideration.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
smackeddog
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8/25/2020  5:00 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
martin wrote:
smackeddog wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:From Macri:

https://knicksfilmschool.substack.com/p/king-me

According to a league source with knowledge of the Knicks thinking, some members of New York’s front office are “all in” on VanVleet as a free agent target, feeling that he is the best available player on the market. Despite speculation that the front office is not looking to add any long term money to the books, the source said they are planning on being involved in the sweepstakes for the combo guard this October.

I’m also told that the Knicks are prioritizing holding on to as many assets as possible in the year ahead, with the possibility of trading up in the 2021 NBA Draft in mind. It seems the fears about Rose & Co making short-sighted moves have been greatly overstated.

Macri also said in his latest podcasts that his sources have given him the impression that the Knicks might actually be okay sucking this season and might not be going for the big splash (like CP3) that people expect. Think Knicks Daily also said we were looking to keep assets for moving up in the 2021 draft (which makes a lot of sense), so maybe the plan is the 2021 draft after all.

2021 draft seems super top loaded with franchise level talent, so this makes sense.

There's a possibility they may not even be a college basketball season, you see whats going one with some of the conferences in college football, so who knows

I wonder what happens to G league too, and the top respects who signed deals with them instead of going to college

Knicks, Suns, Pistons, and Raptors interested in signing fred van fleet per shams

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