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Would You Trade This Years No#6 Overall For Lonzo Ball Plus No#13 Overall?
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smackeddog
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8/17/2020  12:56 PM
Allanfan20 wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:he's got one more year on his deal.. **** no I would not trade #6 for a Ball. I don't even think I would want to trade Ball for our secnod rounder, considering TWO teams have decided Ball is not a part of their future... this is an Isiah Thomas trade idea

Yeah, I have learned to ask “Why exactly is this team willing to trade this player?” It tends to rarely, if ever be “Because they are idiots.”

They were happy with Ball and the talk was about them re-signing him before Orlando. Then the went to Orlando and was awful and some said he'd checked out- something seems to have happened since the season finished. Personally, if you're building round Zion (which may be a mistake if he can't get his weight under control), then I think you need to surround him with 4 shooters, so Ball isn't the best it at PG.

AUTOADVERT
Uptown
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8/17/2020  1:08 PM
smackeddog wrote:
Allanfan20 wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:he's got one more year on his deal.. **** no I would not trade #6 for a Ball. I don't even think I would want to trade Ball for our secnod rounder, considering TWO teams have decided Ball is not a part of their future... this is an Isiah Thomas trade idea

Yeah, I have learned to ask “Why exactly is this team willing to trade this player?” It tends to rarely, if ever be “Because they are idiots.”

They were happy with Ball and the talk was about them re-signing him before Orlando. Then the went to Orlando and was awful and some said he'd checked out- something seems to have happened since the season finished. Personally, if you're building round Zion (which may be a mistake if he can't get his weight under control), then I think you need to surround him with 4 shooters, so Ball isn't the best it at PG.

I'd rather judge Ball based on what he did for over 60 games rather than what he did in 8 games in the bubble. Some guys flourished and put up video game numbers, others play declined.

The bubble games area weird dynamic. The routines aren't the same, you are away from home and family and I imagine its a mental strain for some of the players.

smackeddog
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8/17/2020  1:09 PM
Balls stats remind me of Jason Kidd's when he came into he league. He's improved his 3pt shooting each season (up to a respectable 37.5% this year). He's a great passer and good defender (at least he was in LA, took a step back this past season in NO) and rebounder. I worry about his FT shooting and his injury history.

https://lonzowire.usatoday.com/2019/03/20/lonzo-ball-all-nba-first-team-defense-stats-debate-la-lakers-film/

Was Lonzo Ball a First-Team All-Defense defender this season?

An injury-riddled season for the Los Angeles Lakers was headlined by its young point guard Lonzo Ball who’s set to miss 35 games. Before suffering the ankle sprain that would sideline him, Ball had seemed to be finding a nice groove. He was a big part of a defense that ranked seventh in the league at the time posting a defensive rating of 106.3.

Fans were starting to endorse him on to an All-Defense team, which would be a high honor for just a second-year player. Quantifying individual defense impact is not always clear but Ball was showing that if he stayed healthy he could have had a case going for him.

When we think of players for Defensive Player of the Year or All-Defense teams, typically the multi-positioned wing comes to mind like a Kawhi Leanord or the athletic defensive center that anchors the back line like a Rudy Gobert.

Guards aren’t the first thing we really think of and the last one to win the most prestigious defensive award was Gary Payton back in the 1995-96 season. Guards who make a big impact defensively; especially at a young age, are few and far between.

Ball, though, was a rare impact defender as a guard and was building a case as a potential All-Defense candidate in multiple different areas on the court.

OFF-BALL

As the league becomes more screen heavy and advanced offensively, the ability to be a good off-ball defender with a consistent motor becomes a paramount skill for a good defensive guard. Ball’s a tremendous help defender who has made a living out of creating havoc while still having the ability to recover to his man. He led the Lakers in steals, steal percentage and deflections before going down.

Most of these come from him blowing up the opposition’s play by combining both incredible instincts and quick hands to create live ball turnovers.

As highlighted above, he does a good job waiting until he’s out of the ballhandlers line of sight and will jump into the passing lane, often leading to transition the other way for the Lakers. Steals aren’t always a great barometer for great defense, but it can be a good display of a players basketball IQ and feel for the game.

In the clip above, Ball’s IQ is on display as he reads the play, abandons his defender in the corner and jumps into the passing lane, blowing up the play entirely and coming away with a steal.

There’s no doubt its become a guard-heavy league and defending them takes 24 seconds of attention. Before his injury, Ball was tasked with chasing these guys around all kinds of screen actions. The type of effort and motor it takes to do this consistently doesn’t really show up in the box scores but has a huge impact on a team’s overall defense.

In this clip, Ball starts off in the far corner defending Kemba Walker. Watch as he navigates screens from one corner to the other without ever losing Walker.

This clip starts with Ball in the center of the court defending another All-NBA caliber guard in Damian Lillard. Watch him work both off-ball and on-ball to keep Lillard uncomfortable.

He doesn’t record an official stat on either of these plays but this is tremendous work to stay with both Walker and Lillard off-ball to force their respective teams into tough looks.

The Lakers had a multitude of off-the-court issues, but there is no doubt the defense plummeted once Ball went down. The team went from seventh to a league-worst posting a 115.7 defensive rating in the games following his injury. Ball had a polarizing reputation nationally but in the way the team struggled during his absence, his value around the league certainly has grown.

ON-BALL

Being a good on-ball defender in the NBA can be tough with the amount of offensive talent in the league, but Ball does a pretty good job staying disciplined while leveraging his quickness and length. He has good size for a point guard and uses that to contest high at the rim.

This clip shows Ball’s ability to force Mike Conley into a tough shot after containing the drive while also contesting the shot without fouling, forcing a bad miss.

Per Synergy, Ball ranks in the 92nd percentile in defending jump shots off the dribble in 149 possessions. Ball allowed a shooting percentage of 30.9 percent and just 109 points for 0.732 points per possession.

On the perimeter, he does a good job keeping hands high and getting close without fouling shooters. In their mid-January meeting shown in the clip below, Ball did a nice job on Harden as well in the first half against Houston before eventually suffering his season-ending injury.

Ball’s season will end with him only playing in 47 games, an unfortunate situation as he seemed to have turned a corner on both ends of the floor. After a late start to the preseason last year due to surgery, he had started to look like he was just getting fully healthy.

The numbers started to back it up as well. For guards averaging at least 30 minutes, he was fourth in real defensive plus-minus and eighth in defensive rating.

In one of the most common actions he defended, Ball held opponents to 135 points in 157 possessions in high pick and rolls, ranking in the 83rd percentile. After a slow start to the season, from December 1 through present day, the Lakers had a defensive rating of 103.6 with Ball on the court and a rating of 112.9 with him off. That’s the difference between being the best defense in the league and the 28th-ranked defense.

It still would have remained to be seen whether or not he would crack an All-Defense team this year if the Lakers stayed healthy, but it’s undeniable he was a difference-maker on that end of the court.

smackeddog
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8/17/2020  1:11 PM
SupremeCommander wrote:he's got one more year on his deal.. **** no I would not trade #6 for a Ball. I don't even think I would want to trade Ball for our secnod rounder, considering TWO teams have decided Ball is not a part of their future... this is an Isiah Thomas trade idea

TWO teams is missing context- LA had to move him to get AD, trading any player for AD does not make them a bad player, you'd be fool not to do it!

smackeddog
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8/17/2020  3:37 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/17/2020  3:45 PM

Looks to be almost as elite a passer as LaMelo. Plus at this point he’s a better defender (before this season) and showed he could shoot 3pts at an a average rate this season. Don’t know how you can be enthusiastic about LaMelo but be so against Lonzo.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2889220-is-lamelo-ball-a-better-nba-draft-prospect-than-lonzo-at-19

NYKBocker
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8/17/2020  3:58 PM
No Lonzo and his broke shot.
smackeddog
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8/17/2020  4:53 PM
NYKBocker wrote:No Lonzo and his broke shot.

He shot 37.5% from 3 this year and has improved it every year so far

Uptown
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8/17/2020  5:00 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/17/2020  5:02 PM
smackeddog wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:No Lonzo and his broke shot.

He shot 37.5% from 3 this year and has improved it every year so far

This...I'm wondering if people actually watched Lonzo this year. His shooting form has been broken down and built back up. Dell Demps, Pels assistant deserves some credit for working with Ball. With Gentry out of a job, Demps may be looking for an assistant coaching job. We have seats available and shooters with broken shots.

jskinny35
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8/17/2020  6:09 PM
If the deal is pick 6 for 13 and we get Lonzo Ball - you have to consider it as pre-bubble Ball was developing nicely. He reminds me of a Rubio type that plays fast, moves the ball well, plays defense and is starting to shoot reasonably well from deep. Agree with other posters that even if LaMelo is a better passer - his defense is very suspect and he plays much slower than his brother.

Yes we have Frank but a pre-bubble Lonzo at the point (Frank backing) with RJ would offer better floor spacing and certainly help Mitch (and maybe even Knox). And we can still get an available talent at 13? Edwards and Wiseman are redundant to the few positions we have filled (RJ and Mitch)... unless we think Haliburton or Hayes is that much better than what Lonzo already is - we should consider it. Not sure NOP wants to rid themselves of Ball that badly just because he struggled for 8 games during Covid...

Uptown
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8/17/2020  7:02 PM
Coming out of this draft with Lonzo, Jah'mius Ramsey @ 13 and Jalen Smith/Tyler Bey @ 27, would be a serious upgrade in talent on our roster.
technomaster
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8/17/2020  10:46 PM
If we strike out on the PG we want, I'm be up for the Lonzo Ball experiment. He made some quirky choices with his shooting form between high school and college.

He went from an 80% FT shooter in high school (165 out of 205) to a 67% in college, to a hot mess in the NBA (sub-50%!!!).

What the heck! With 3 NBA seasons under his belt in the NBA, he's seemingly a little farther along at establishing himself as a starter-quality player in the NBA than Frank and DSJ.

Is he better than Elfrid? Not sure - they're both triple-doubles waiting to happen but don't consistently impact winning.

“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
fwk00
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8/18/2020  1:04 AM    LAST EDITED: 8/18/2020  1:07 AM
technomaster wrote:If we strike out on the PG we want, I'm be up for the Lonzo Ball experiment. He made some quirky choices with his shooting form between high school and college.

He went from an 80% FT shooter in high school (165 out of 205) to a 67% in college, to a hot mess in the NBA (sub-50%!but!!).

What the heck! With 3 NBA seasons under his belt in the NBA, he's seemingly a little farther along at establishing himself as a starter-quality player in the NBA than Frank and DSJ.
Is he better than Elfrid? Notbut
sure - they're both triple-doubles waiting to happen but don't consistently impact winning.

I would do a different deal - Knox, Smith, and a second rounder.

I think the Knicks pick may be higher. I'd be looking for Avdija or Vassell instead of a PG. Either pick is a better development project than Knox, IMO.

Failing landing either of those I'd look at a sign and trade of Dotson for either of Portland's Simon or Little both of whom are interesting. My greater hope would be a simple resigning of Dotson AND Avdija or Vassell.

If the Knicks drop instead - sure swap first-rounders and move some ballast but I'm not sold on any of the Ball family because Ball.

OH, and Smokes is at least as mature as Ball after 3 years. You all underestimate the Unicorn. Big mistake.

GustavBahler
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8/18/2020  9:58 AM    LAST EDITED: 8/18/2020  9:59 AM
Absolutely. Smart player who pushes the tempo, but more importantly, Ball's ability to excel in halfcourt play as well. Which is a problem we have with some of our younger players like Knox, DSJr, Frank. Barrett and Ball would be a high BBall IQ backcourt.

We also have a surplus of first and second round picks. Maybe not as high in the draft, but valuable, if the Knicks pick smart.

Chandler
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8/18/2020  10:15 AM
great question

my first reaction was a hard no

but then the references to Jason Kidd got me thinking and it got more complicated. I wouldn't reject it out of hand but also hope our talent people could distinguish between someone on the rise versus a lemon. I'm a big fan of BBIQ and he seems to check that box. Big issue is his shot (or lack thereof)

Add to it that I'm not a big fan of having a roster full of 19 year old-types. they're all coming off their rookie contracts before (in many cases) you know if they're any good. So having some a slight bit older adds some leadership too

(5)(7)
HofstraBBall
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8/18/2020  6:32 PM
TripleThreat wrote:Not quite a secret around the league, but I keep hearing the Pelicans would like to move up in the draft and move Lonzo Ball off the roster. Also no secret his father wants him in the largest market possible.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/new-orleans-pelicans/lonzo-ball-23597/

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/balllo01.html

His cap charge next season, based on rookie slotting, makes him essentially a middle class player compensation wise even though he's on his rookie contract.

https://www.nbadraft.net/nba-mock-drafts/

Here's a rough mock draft to see players in the range of No#13

I chose No#6 overall as it's sort of a middle ground of where the Knicks might pick.

The CAA/Leon Rose connection means the Knicks will get some kind of offer. I do not typically post trade scenarios, if I do, there's a reason for it.

Thoughts?

While I do not mind the idea of trading down, I do not see a reason to add yet another wing that has issues shooting the basketball. Specially for one that I can't really say is better than Frank, Smith or Payton? Once you add all their so called positives.

Feel the strategy, in a weak draft. should be to trade down for a couple more low first round picks. Give yourself a better chance at getting lucky. This draft does not have anyone that stands out past the top three. Not to mention Lamelo is not exactly a sure thing. Hopefully the Knicks look to pick up better shooters in free agency and try to do the same in the draft. They should not get caught up in drafting by positional needs but rather focus instead on best player available. Just don't think there are any PG's that are substantially better than the ones we had last year.

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
Would You Trade This Years No#6 Overall For Lonzo Ball Plus No#13 Overall?

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