martin wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:As a finished product, I am envisioning RJ in between Pippen and Jimmy Butler. IF RJ buys himself a reliable outside shot then he will be a heck of a player. Maybe even becoming the best player coming out of the 2019 draft.

Go NY Go NY Go!

RJ has the strength but I wish he had a bit more vertical athleticism and burst

He makes up for lack of burst with craftiness...not as quick as Harden with what he does, but great body control and misdirection in his moves to the basket...another thing that is key...he LOVES contact..that is key because based on his shiftiness he can bait his defender and get them off balance but can finish when the defense recovers or kick out on the collapse...

Michael Redd, Trevor Ariza, Andre Iguodala, Antawn Jamison, Vince Carter, Blake Griffin. Michael Redd was a notably poor shooter in 3 years of college (32% 3pt, 65% FT - tho he made a big FT leap (77%) in his 3rd college season after shooting 61% for his first 2) - got injured early in his rookie year, then shot 38% from 3 and 84% from the line for his NBA career.

As additional perspective, guys like Grant Hill and Paul Pierce shot free throws in the 60% range as college freshmen.

What does it all mean? All I can say is that there's at least a chance that RJ will make some improvements. He's a guy that has a reputation for being very coachable - so at the least, you'd expect him to improve his 3pt shot selection and take the highest % shots.

One note - he shot 30.8% 3pt% as a Freshman in college. At the longer NBA distance, he shot 32%.

jrodmc wrote:

technomaster wrote:Paul Pierce didn't let mere "good" athleticism stop him from greatness. He had a lot of the veteran guile and craftiness at an early age that served him throughout his career. RJ is similar in that regard. I think that's his ceiling.

RJ's primary deficiency at this point is his shooting. All of his other skills are good or even great. He can get more athletic, but gains will be incremental relative to how much he can improve his shooting.

In 11 post-all star break games, he averaged around 17ppg, 3apg, 5rpg, 45% FG%, 32%3pt%, 62%FT in 30mpg. He took 4.6ft attempts/game. If he averaged 70FT% instead of 62%, that would add another .5ppg to his scoring average. In general, FT% is a good indicator of consistency as a shooter and correlates well with 3pt% as well.

@NYKBocker - I think you underrate Pippen's peak athleticism. He was probably right there with Jordan among the tops in the league for speed/power/body control in his prime, all with a slightly taller/longer body. He had a remarkably long career and we saw his body breakdown over the years. The guy we saw in Houston and Portland was already 33+ years old. I guess you can say RJ Barrett has the athleticism of 32 year old Scottie Pippen - or a post-broken ankle Grant Hill.

When I think about benchmarks for SGs, I look to our very own Allan Houston and Latrell Sprewell as reference. Houston was an excellent methodical athlete. He was a former high jumper and debatably had a higher vertical than Sprewell. But he wasn't a fast twitch guy and couldn't make squirrel-like body adjustments mid-air. He couldn't gather himself for a quick second leap. He couldn't make his body react on defense like the elite guys. Sprewell was an elite fast twitch guy, extremely shifty. He more than made up for any lack of skills with a high motor and ferocious intensity. Sure he could jump, but I think we marveled at the quickness and power he brought to his forays near the basket.

Pierce came into the league shooting 40% from 3. You either have that or you don't. Age aside, RJ isn't going to have a whole hell of a lot of time to develop a shot, especially if he can't become a prime slasher/distributor. Not setting the league on fire defensively either. Hopefully Thibs changes that as well. Hopefully patience prevails.

H20 was a shooting clinic, but had the tendency to fade to invisible in many games, which I hated. Agreed, Spree was endless motor and even held the record for most consecutive threes made without a miss (yes, I'm a fanboy). And he brought it for 48 on both ends. Rare level of intensity.

technomaster wrote:@NYKBocker - I think you underrate Pippen's peak athleticism. He was probably right there with Jordan among the tops in the league for speed/power/body control in his prime, all with a slightly taller/longer body. He had a remarkably long career and we saw his body breakdown over the years. The guy we saw in Houston and Portland was already 33+ years old. I guess you can say RJ Barrett has the athleticism of 32 year old Scottie Pippen - or a post-broken ankle Grant Hill.

I think RJs 2 biggest challenges are his any kind of shooting and his defense. Both of those absolutely need work.

BigDaddyG wrote:

technomaster wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:I also wanted to say Houston was a better quick twitch athlete than you give him credit for earlier in his career. Those long strides made it appear that he was slower, but it just took him less time to get to his spot on the floor. Check out the Pistons/Bulls game when he went head to head with Jordan. Unfortunately, you could see the decline in his final years with us. He used to get a lot of air underneath his feet for that J. Very aesthetic, but probably not the best thing for his knees.

Not sure. Just because you're not a quick twitch guy doesn't mean you can't be an effective player. The way I think of it is Ray Allen and Allan Houston were very similar players - both outstanding shooting guards, similar size - but Ray Allen was the better athlete, just a little bit more of a fast twitch sort of guy. You often see it in steals averages (though not necessarily).

Here's my ladder of athleticism:
Ray Allen > Allen Houston > Hubert Davis

All tremendous shooters. Ray Allen is what Houston would have been with slightly better fast twitch athleticism. Hubert Davis was a meh athlete - he looked like you could knock him off balance if you just tapped him on the shoulder.

Houston *never* averaged more than 1 steal per game. (peaked at .8spg) And it wasn't because he wasn't trying being a lock-down defender... he just didn't have the same type of explosion. On offense, you can still be successful even if you're not an elite athlete - only YOU know where you're going on the floor and that always puts you at an advantage. On defense, well, I don't think he was a meh defender because of lack of effort or smarts - he just wasn't quick in that way.

But yeah, back to RJ. AT LEAST RJ already averaged 1spg as a rookie.

I get what you're saying, but I still say that Allan, earlier in his career was on a similar level athletically to Ray. I think the reason he sucked on defense is because he was adverse to contact. He was a finesse player in both ends on the court. Now, I will say Spree wasn't as advanced offensively as Allan, but he made up for it with a better motor and he seemed to relish the contact on both ends of the court. Notice, Spree played in the post and took advantage of whatever physical dominance he had in a given matchup. Allan would have a 6'2" guard on him and it seemed like you still had to remind him to take advantage of the mismatch. I'll say this about RJ, he doesn't shy away from contact. I don't think anyone is saying RJ is a bad athlete. I think he gets off his feet quickly, same way Melo did with us. Problem right now is RJ doesn't have the overwhelming size or speed mismatch at his position that Melo had against forwards.

I actually think Allan was ok with contact but his off the ball defense was pretty bad. In terms of contact, it might have been different earlier in his career though. I thought once he added all of that muscle and he became older, he was pretty decent at handling it.

Best thing about him is his toughness and competitiveness. I love the kid even with his current flaws.

TripleThreat wrote:

Knixkik wrote:What type of progression do you see from RJ under Thibs?

Long term - Super charged glue guy

Short term - Miscast inefficient 20 ppg scorer based on ugly volume and poor shot selection

Since Thibs doesn't have any real shooters, thus no real floor spacing, his only shot is to get the roster to buy in on defense relentlessly to try to generate opportunities in transition.

Barrett has to have the humility to know what he's not. He's not going to play above the rim and blow by everyone. He doesn't play within the scope of his limitations.

A man has to be able to say to himself, "I cannot outrun a giraffe. I need to be humbled"

Look at those ****ers book it. Majestic.

I will never get that comparison out of my head now. RJ will forever be known as the Giraffe in my mind. Thanks TripleThreat.

His attitude tho. Man. So mature. This man is not going to be doing no silly foolishness posting things on Instagram to call out his future coach. Yea