Sangfroid wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Allanfan20 wrote:You are giving up assets for a player who is talented but also had decent talent around them... yet their teams are horrible. Now, you have little talent around that guy you acquired because you have up everything for him (like the Melo trade) and he has no history of winning in the NBA. Yes, it’s a terrible idea.

I get your point, but how are you suggesting we turn this around fast

You don't turn it around fast.

Nothing in NBA modern history shows you can turn it around fast. Someone will then cite the LBJ, Wade and Bosh teams, without the context that the groundwork for that team started four years before The Decision happened. Also the cap movement needed to make it happened started essentially two seasons before The Decision.

No one turns it around fast. The cap environment and salary structure essentially make it near impossible.

Progress is the Knicks winning 5-6 games more than the season before.

Call me optimistic, but I'm looking for double digit improvement. Looking back over the last season, there were close to 15 games lost by either 5 points or less, and 6-8. Those were the "Damn! We should have won that game!" With these guys playing defense, we can hope to make at least that double digit jump. Let's see what attention to detail brings us.

This is a good point. There were times it seemed that if the Knicks could just figure out how to finish games... In a prorated full season season the Knicks were on pace to have 26 wins. (32 if Miller had coached the whole season.) That's a 9 or 15 win increase over 17 wins in 2018-19, however you look at it. I could see the Knicks winning 40 games next year without any major moves. Get a shooter in the draft and sign a stretch 4. If Thibs gets the most out of players maybe he can find the diamonds that are supposedly hidden in our lottery picks. Frank seemed to just be figuring out that aggresive is good when the season ended abruptly. If he plays offball more then he can be opened to be more aggresive, rather than look to set up others in a PG role. I could see Frank really taking a jump next year. (He better be putting up those 3s until his muscle memory invades his dreams. ) Knox, Calipari said 3 years so... And DSJ, He looked good his first 2 years in the league. Last year But maybe it was just one of those years where his Mom died and injuries and inconsistant playing time... Thibs likes guards that can drive and hit the paint. DSJ, that's about the only thing he does well... So a jump by some of our youth, a hit or 2 in the draft, a smart free agent signing and I can easily see the Knicks at 40 wins next year.

KnickDanger wrote:

GT2AM wrote:

Sangfroid wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Allanfan20 wrote:You are giving up assets for a player who is talented but also had decent talent around them... yet their teams are horrible. Now, you have little talent around that guy you acquired because you have up everything for him (like the Melo trade) and he has no history of winning in the NBA. Yes, it’s a terrible idea.

I get your point, but how are you suggesting we turn this around fast

You don't turn it around fast.

Nothing in NBA modern history shows you can turn it around fast. Someone will then cite the LBJ, Wade and Bosh teams, without the context that the groundwork for that team started four years before The Decision happened. Also the cap movement needed to make it happened started essentially two seasons before The Decision.

No one turns it around fast. The cap environment and salary structure essentially make it near impossible.

Progress is the Knicks winning 5-6 games more than the season before.

Call me optimistic, but I'm looking for double digit improvement. Looking back over the last season, there were close to 15 games lost by either 5 points or less, and 6-8. Those were the "Damn! We should have won that game!" With these guys playing defense, we can hope to make at least that double digit jump. Let's see what attention to detail brings us.

This is a good point. There were times it seemed that if the Knicks could just figure out how to finish games... In a prorated full season season the Knicks were on pace to have 26 wins. (32 if Miller had coached the whole season.) That's a 9 or 15 win increase over 17 wins in 2018-19, however you look at it. I could see the Knicks winning 40 games next year without any major moves. Get a shooter in the draft and sign a stretch 4. If Thibs gets the most out of players maybe he can find the diamonds that are supposedly hidden in our lottery picks. Frank seemed to just be figuring out that aggresive is good when the season ended abruptly. If he plays offball more then he can be opened to be more aggresive, rather than look to set up others in a PG role. I could see Frank really taking a jump next year. (He better be putting up those 3s until his muscle memory invades his dreams. ) Knox, Calipari said 3 years so... And DSJ, He looked good his first 2 years in the league. Last year But maybe it was just one of those years where his Mom died and injuries and inconsistant playing time... Thibs likes guards that can drive and hit the paint. DSJ, that's about the only thing he does well... So a jump by some of our youth, a hit or 2 in the draft, a smart free agent signing and I can easily see the Knicks at 40 wins next year.

As much as I'd like to see otherwise, DSJ just appears cooked. Does not seem to have any fire in the belly and maybe worse. Maybe he has a life changing experience or something...Frank on the other hand actually showed some promise and seems to have the character to maybe hang in and become a productive NBA player. We'll see of course.

Anyway, I will be very happy if we get Halliburton. I see people tag him as "high floor/low ceiling" -- just how the F do they measure that stat?

The high floor/low ceiling thing is really all feel. He has a high floor because his spot up shooting, defensive instincts, and passing give him easily transferable skills. He should be a capable combo guard off the bench from day 1 and a starting guard soon enough. As far as his lower floor, he doesn’t have blazing speed and that’s not something that will likely change, so lowering his ceiling. I see him as essentially a more confident, better shooting version of Frank. In this draft he’s a great pick for us. He and Barrett make a great backcourt if there’s confidence in Barrett becoming a playmaker.

joec32033 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

TheGame wrote:Haliburton would be a solid pick. I still like Hayes better, but I cannot argue that Haliburton looks solid. The issue with Haliburton is that he does not have a high ceiling. He rarely drives to the lane, does not go to the free throw line alot, and is only a so-so athlete. In my view, Ball is a much better pick. Ball is a far superior at breaking defenses down. He is just as good a passer, and while his jumper needs work, if Lonzo could turn himself into a decent shooter, Ball can term himself into a great shooter. Yes, for next year, Haliburton would probably perform better, because still needs to grow into his body and work on his jumper, but in 3 years, I cannot see anyway Haliburton is going to be a better player than Ball, and I don't think it would be even close. Haliburton is more on a George Hill level. Ball will be on a Ben Simmons level.

No doubt Ball has more upside and can be a star at best case. Haliburton offers a high floor with his ability to fit into different lineups but doesn’t have that real high ceiling. George hill from Indiana isn’t a bad comp. I don’t know if there’s a great comp right now. He’s a unique player. His strengths are good passer, good spot up shooter and good defensive versatility. Weaknesses are explosiveness and scoring/shooting off the dribble. What player comes to mind with that ?

Off the top of my head, Mike Conley sounds like a comparison with what you listed. Rubio is another one (Haliburton better defensively), Hill is another good one. Maybe Darren Collison and or Jarue Holiday?

Jrue holiday is probably one of the closest I can come up with. Also stylistically He is similar to SGA from the Thunder. In a weird way he reminds me of an older Jason Kidd too. The version of Kidd that spent a lot of time behind the 3pt line and was a great facilitator and ball movement , but not a breakdown creator.

Knickfury11 wrote:https://www.google.com/amp/s/hoopshabit.com/2020/08/04/new-york-knicks-tyrese-haliburton-trade/amp/

Was really onboard with the article above. Thought the points made about Ball were more than fair.

Yeah i'm with it. Haliburton makes so much sense because he's a great fit with Barrett. They can play together in the backcourt or at the 2 and 3. The versatility really stands out. He's a Thibs player because he's a strong defensive player. He's a Rose player because he's a CAA guy. And we need a PG bad. It just feels right.

fishmike wrote:Haliburton would be great. I think we trade the pick tho

Question....Should not the best PG in the draft be a true PG? Bolton was the the main ball handler/PG on Iowa state? No?

Also, if we are talking Guards, can anyone really make a case that Haliburton is that much better, if so, then Cole, Bane, Maxey, Hampton, Terry, Lewis etc. Guys that can be had much lower. I am hoping we trade down and go with quantity in a weak draft. Has been a winning strategy before. Still hope we pick up Bey somehow but a couple of additonal guys like Bane, Vassel, Manion, Ramsey. Will be interesting to see if the Knicks are smart enough to trade the pick for value.

Knixkik wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:Haliburton would be great. I think we trade the pick tho

This.

Question....Should not the best PG in the draft be a true PG? Bolton was the the main ball handler/PG on Iowa state? No?

Also, if we are talking Guards, can anyone really make a case that Haliburton is that much better, if so, then Cole, Bane, Maxey, Hampton, Terry, Lewis etc. Guys that can be had much lower. I am hoping we trade down and go with quantity in a weak draft. Has been a winning strategy before. Still hope we pick up Bey somehow but a couple of additonal guys like Bane, Vassel, Manion, Ramsey. Will be interesting to see if the Knicks are smart enough to trade the pick for value.

Haliburton has the size of a SG but skills of a PG. he doesn’t need to be a pure PG next to Barrett because the plan is for Barrett to assume playmaking responsibility. Haliburton has the best combination of shooting/passing/defense in this draft. He’s a better bet than the others because of his high floor but someone like Cole Anthony probably has a little higher upside, who I’m not opposed to. Haliburton is my choice because he’s the only prospect who is above average in 3 valuable skills we lack on this team.

From his time in Minnesota we see, perhaps unsurprisingly, an emphasis on raw athleticism and defense with some token nods to the need for shooting, as Bates-Diop and Patton both projected as decent positional shooters. The list of players drafted during his time with the Bulls has slightly wider range, with classic Thibs guys like Butler, Snell, and even Marquis Teague (ask Nate Robinson, John Lucas III, or Aaron Brooks how much Thibs loves his undersized point guards) mixed with some very anti-Thibs moves: trading up to draft Nikola Mirotic, who wouldn’t come to the NBA for three more years, or trading two plus-defensive prospects in Gary Harris and Jusuf Nurkic for the rights to draft future former Knick Doug McDermott.

Then to confirm the bold the first move the knicks make under leon is to sign harper

The Knicks are getting a true scoring point guard,” Pearl said by phone. “He’s under-sized but pound-for-pound is as strong and athletic as any player out there on the floor. He has tremendous range and the ability to pull from deep. He’s special in ball-screen and plays at a real good tempo.”

This should Narrow the focus because Haliburton and Killen ( i like both) are not the typical guards Thibs has acquired in the past

smackeddog wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:THIS is a very interesting take on what kind of PG thibs wants

From his time in Minnesota we see, perhaps unsurprisingly, an emphasis on raw athleticism and defense with some token nods to the need for shooting, as Bates-Diop and Patton both projected as decent positional shooters. The list of players drafted during his time with the Bulls has slightly wider range, with classic Thibs guys like Butler, Snell, and even Marquis Teague (ask Nate Robinson, John Lucas III, or Aaron Brooks how much Thibs loves his undersized point guards) mixed with some very anti-Thibs moves: trading up to draft Nikola Mirotic, who wouldn’t come to the NBA for three more years, or trading two plus-defensive prospects in Gary Harris and Jusuf Nurkic for the rights to draft future former Knick Doug McDermott.

Then to confirm the bold the first move the knicks make under leon is to sign harper

The Knicks are getting a true scoring point guard,” Pearl said by phone. “He’s under-sized but pound-for-pound is as strong and athletic as any player out there on the floor. He has tremendous range and the ability to pull from deep. He’s special in ball-screen and plays at a real good tempo.”

This should Narrow the focus because Haliburton and Killen ( i like both) are not the typical guards Thibs has acquired in the past

Wouldn't be surprised if we go for Tyrese Maxey.

Then again, does Jeff Teague really fit with the above description?

Knixkik wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:Haliburton would be great. I think we trade the pick tho

This.

Question....Should not the best PG in the draft be a true PG? Bolton was the the main ball handler/PG on Iowa state? No?

Also, if we are talking Guards, can anyone really make a case that Haliburton is that much better, if so, then Cole, Bane, Maxey, Hampton, Terry, Lewis etc. Guys that can be had much lower. I am hoping we trade down and go with quantity in a weak draft. Has been a winning strategy before. Still hope we pick up Bey somehow but a couple of additonal guys like Bane, Vassel, Manion, Ramsey. Will be interesting to see if the Knicks are smart enough to trade the pick for value.

Haliburton has the size of a SG but skills of a PG. he doesn’t need to be a pure PG next to Barrett because the plan is for Barrett to assume playmaking responsibility. Haliburton has the best combination of shooting/passing/defense in this draft. He’s a better bet than the others because of his high floor but someone like Cole Anthony probably has a little higher upside, who I’m not opposed to. Haliburton is my choice because he’s the only prospect who is above average in 3 valuable skills we lack on this team.

I have Hal behind Ball and Killian, but I'd be good if we drafted him at 6 or 7. Two things; 1)Hal is going to need at least a year, maybe three, to get his J up to snuff. It doesn't need minor tweaks, but a complete overhaul. 2) Hell need to develop physically. He's allergic to the paint right now, and a lot of that is due to the fact he's 60lbs.

Haliburton doesn't need a shooting overhaul. It's unorthodox but 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' is the saying. Some tweaks will help him as an off-the-dribble shooter but you happily take his jumper and that 49% he shoots in catch and shoot situations and build off of it. There's more space in the NBA, so at the very least with his current form he will be a very good catch and shoot player. And if you watch his tape, you will see he tends to shoot from very deep so the adjustment to the 3pt line won't be an issue. He's an NBA ready shooter with a funny shot, that's all.