BRIGGS wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Would people start defining what they mean by 'retread' coach? (not aimed at you specifically, but I keep seeing it on forums) It's such a daft concept, that seems to have become common place and used to describe any coach who's coached before, who someone doesn't like

A retread coach is a coach who keeps getting chances, even though the game might be passing them by or they havent fielded a contender in a while, if ever. Believe its daft to consider Thibs the best choice in a player's league.

He coached for the Bulls (very successful), then the Twolves, how is that constantly getting chances? It just seems a ridiculous term to me. What coaches are only allowed to coach once now?

What’s wrong with hiring Anthony Grant? He has nba experience and just modeled an incredible winning two way style of play?
Tibs is a 62 year old retread by any definition!!!!!

Grant is a great college coach and I have nothing but the utmost respect for him. HOWEVER, Grant's personality would absolutely not be a good fit to be an NBA head coach. Grant is very reserved, doesn't have much of an appetite to deal with the media and though he is a VERY nice man, is not what you would call an engaging personality. It wasn't received very well at Alabama when he coached there. I remember reaching posts like "can you at least act like you want to be here." His NBA coaching experience is mainly because he and Billy Donovan are VERY tight from their days in college, particularly coaching together at Florida. When Grant was fired from Alabama, Donovan provided Grant with a soft landing spot at OKC until he decided on his next move, which ended up being the coaching gig at Dayton (his alma mater).

Grant only coached as an assistant two seasons in the NBA. Based on what I know about Grant, he is in the perfect situation at Dayton and I actually predicted he may get the Dayton job when Archie Miller left. His personal goal has always been to win a NCAA championship as a head coach (he has a ring as an assistant coach at Florida). He pursued that by taking the Alabama job, and it didn't work out. I can almost guarantee you, Grant has ZERO aspirations to be a head coach in the NBA. In fact, I bet he probably really didn't want to be an assistant in the NBA. Grant is not a "ladder climber" type of guy, say like Calipari. He spent (I believe) 10 years at Florida as an assistant because he wanted to wait for the right first head coaching job in spite of getting several offers over the years. Grant is not the type of guy always looking for the next big gig. If anything, he may take another stab at a power five college job one last time. Also, I doubt VERY seriously he and his family would have any interest living in NYC. Grant grew up in Miami and most of his experience has been in the south (other than playing and coaching at Dayton). Grant's strong suit is dealing with young men in a college environment. I think he's better equip to help young men with their academic challenges versus the typical NBA grown men challenges.

I hope this may temper you advocating for Anthony Grant. I can assure you, he would not have been a good fit in NYC and this is no slight on him whatsoever. I would bet anything he wouldn't have been happy here and Knick fans wouldn't have been happy with him. Think about the Derek Fisher experience, just maybe twice as bad. There are a ton on other African-American coaching prospects you can advocate for.

One last thing, don't be surprise if we draft his best player Obi Toppin.

David West: Man how many times can u fail up as a black head coach....

Byron Scott - 4 head coaching gigs
Lionel Hollins, Mike Brown, John Lucus, Eddie Jordan, Mo Cheeks, Dwane Casey, Nate McMillan - 3 head coaching gigs

I think this may be an issue in other sports, I always felt the NBA was doing OK with regard to retreading African-American coaches. There are a bunch who have been hired twice (i.e. Avery Johnson, Jason Kidd and others). It may not be equal to white coaches, but I don't think David West is accurate on this one.

houston20 wrote:Honestly david west is wrong about the knicks not hiring black coaches when knicks have hired more black coaches and black front office management position in the last 20 years then the whole nfl has. Lets look at facts the knicks have hired lot of black coaches 7 over last 20 years don cheaney, lenny wilkens, isiah thomas, herb williams, mike woodson, derrick fisher, and david fizdale. On the hire of black front office jobs the knicks have given black people are isiah thomas, steve mills, scott perry, craig robinson, walt perrimion, alan houston, and world wide wes. Former knick players working in the organization who are black larry johnson, john starks, john wallace, latrell sprewell, walt frazier off and on kurt thomas, allan houston, works sometimes with the organization marcus camby. David west and the media need to get there facts right especially espn because the knicks have hired more black people then any other organization in the nba or any other major sports league nfl, baseball, hockey, ect in last 20 years. Lets be fair nobody in the nba is screaming for isiah thomas, steve mills, david fizdale, or derrick fisher to get another nba job because there black.

Believe West was speaking of a league problem. The Knicks being the latest example. Guess you dont remember how Wilkins and Chaney were treated by the Knicks.

Welpee wrote:

David West: Man how many times can u fail up as a black head coach....

Black NBA who have been hired at least three times:

Byron Scott - 4 head coaching gigs
Lionel Hollins, Mike Brown, John Lucus, Eddie Jordan, Mo Cheeks, Dwane Casey, Nate McMillan - 3 head coaching gigs

I think this may be an issue in other sports, I always felt the NBA was doing OK with regard to retreading African-American coaches. There are a bunch who have been hired twice (i.e. Avery Johnson, Jason Kidd and others). It may not be equal to white coaches, but I don't think David West is accurate on this one.

David west needs to realize the knicks have hired 7 black coaches in last 20 years fisher,fizdale,herb williams, don cheaney, mike woodson, isiah thomas, lenny wilkins. The knicks have done more black hiring then other organization in the nba or any major sport football, baseball, hockey in last 20 years. We can say this about knicks giving black coaches more chances and hiring more then nfl has done last 20 years. How many nfl teams have hire 7 black coaches in the last 20 years then the knicks have can't really name any. How about the front office in last 20 years knicks hired lot black people in front office steve mills, isiah thomas, scott perry, walt perrin, world wide wes, alan houston, craig robinson. Knicks have been more fair of any organization in the nba or any major sport of hiring people of color in last 20 year in front office or coaching.

awe1028 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:What’s wrong with hiring Anthony Grant? He has nba experience and just modeled an incredible winning two way style of play?
Tibs is a 62 year old retread by any definition!!!!!

This retread stuff is nonsense. Thibs was the most accomplished coach on the list and isn't the way it should be you pick the man most qualified for the job.

Thibs fits the Knicks to a tee. The Knicks don't have a lot of offensive talent but what they do have are players who play defense at a high level - Frank, Mitch Rob even RJ shows flashes of being a good defensive player. What is Thibs calling card? DEFENSE! The odds are the Knicks are picking somewhere between 6 and 10 in the draft. Unless the Knicks get lucky they are not getting that offensive star in the draft. So for the Knicks to do any winning with the roster they have is to focus on defense Thibs' calling card

You keep saying that Thibs is old the game has passed him by, He can't connect with today's players. Which players complain about Thibs? KAT, Wiggins. Exactly what kind of winning have they done. Jeff Van Gundy said it best: Jeff Van Gundy said it best Great players don't complain about Thibs and hard work it is only the scrubs who feel it has to be cumbaya I am paraphrasing of course

As to your advocating for Anthony Grant. He has never coached a game in The NBA ever. Have we forgotten what happened to inexperienced coaches who got their first chance in NY - Fisher, Hornacek, Fizdale. The demands of NY ate them up and spat them out.

The Knicks need a coach like Thibs and you should thank Leon Rose for delivering him to us.

houston20 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

houston20 wrote:Honestly david west is wrong about the knicks not hiring black coaches when knicks have hired more black coaches and black front office management position in the last 20 years then the whole nfl has. Lets look at facts the knicks have hired lot of black coaches 7 over last 20 years don cheaney, lenny wilkens, isiah thomas, herb williams, mike woodson, derrick fisher, and david fizdale. On the hire of black front office jobs the knicks have given black people are isiah thomas, steve mills, scott perry, craig robinson, walt perrimion, alan houston, and world wide wes. Former knick players working in the organization who are black larry johnson, john starks, john wallace, latrell sprewell, walt frazier off and on kurt thomas, allan houston, works sometimes with the organization marcus camby. David west and the media need to get there facts right especially espn because the knicks have hired more black people then any other organization in the nba or any other major sports league nfl, baseball, hockey, ect in last 20 years. Lets be fair nobody in the nba is screaming for isiah thomas, steve mills, david fizdale, or derrick fisher to get another nba job because there black.

Believe West was speaking of a league problem. The Knicks being the latest example. Guess you dont remember how Wilkins and Chaney were treated by the Knicks.

They were hired right cheaney and wilkins didn't have to take the job either. I understand there is lot crap deal with nyc because there expectation to be great its not for everybody. We can't say the knicks haven't been fair in the hiring black coaches give them interviews and jobs more then other sport in last 20 years. The nfl has problem hiring black coaches but we can say with the knicks they have hired lot of black coaches some didn't do well but were given a chance to coach. Why hasn't nba team or management screamed to get isiah thomas, steve mills, derrick fisher, or david fizdale another coaching job or front office job its because they sucked at there job nothing to do with race.

Chaney was "escorted" out of MSG by security, after he got fired. Sound familiar? Wilkins got fired for a winning pct the Knicks wish they had right now. I dont consider Steve Mills/Isiah Thomas a victory for civil rights. Ask Anaucha Browne Saunders.

I get what you're saying. That the Knicks have been better than most in hiring African Americans. Doesnt make keeping the old boys club going (black or white) right. Just because the stars in Minny didnt want to get played into the ground, being treated like they were in permanent boot camp. Doesmt make them divas. Its a different league.

The numbers back up that Thibs is at the top of the list when it comes to giving stars heavy minutes. Its one thing to sing Thibs praises, its another to pretend like there isnt a reason Thibs is on his 3rd stop in 5 years. Not being able to trust his bench, is a big reason why.

Until I hear that those issues wont resurface, Im going to be a skeptic of this hire. That poll about which coaches players would like to avoid playing for, Thibs is at the top of the list. Dont believe that poll is an outlier. The idea should be to hire a coach that at the very least wont repel stars. Hope they prove me wrong. We will know if after 2 years, if no big FAs sign up. Hope the front office can work some magic.

y2zipper wrote:At the very least, we can all at least agree that Thibs isn't a "100% in on chasing free agents" hire like Fizdale was.

I don't agree with the context of West's take. Mark Jackson, Ty Lue and Jason Kidd are people who I'd never consider for an NBA coaching job if I'm a GM/President.

Mark Jackson was a fairly good coach who won't get another job because it became very publicly known that he fought with ownership and couldn't keep his house in order in Golden State and the on-court results weren't good enough to justify the baggage. The Warriors were worried that Jackson wasn't hiring good assistants, and that's a huge concern with a team like the Knicks who are young and in need of development. Warriors' ownership basically risked souring the relationship with Steph Curry to move off Jackson.

Ty Lue is a terrible coach that got a job purely because of his relationship with LeBron James. He even got interviewed for the Lakers' job when it was open again, becuase LeBron.

Patrick Ewing hasn't gotten a shot yet but will at some point, but he's a celebrity hire for the Knicks and they should probably stay away from him for now.

Believe the thrust of West's argument was right, thought he should have foxused more on young African American coaches waiting for their first chance at a HC gig in the NBA. Would have liked to see the Knicks go that route. A young coach who can relate to today's players, and get them to buy in.

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

y2zipper wrote:At the very least, we can all at least agree that Thibs isn't a "100% in on chasing free agents" hire like Fizdale was.

I don't agree with the context of West's take. Mark Jackson, Ty Lue and Jason Kidd are people who I'd never consider for an NBA coaching job if I'm a GM/President.

Mark Jackson was a fairly good coach who won't get another job because it became very publicly known that he fought with ownership and couldn't keep his house in order in Golden State and the on-court results weren't good enough to justify the baggage. The Warriors were worried that Jackson wasn't hiring good assistants, and that's a huge concern with a team like the Knicks who are young and in need of development. Warriors' ownership basically risked souring the relationship with Steph Curry to move off Jackson.

Ty Lue is a terrible coach that got a job purely because of his relationship with LeBron James. He even got interviewed for the Lakers' job when it was open again, becuase LeBron.

Patrick Ewing hasn't gotten a shot yet but will at some point, but he's a celebrity hire for the Knicks and they should probably stay away from him for now.

Believe the thrust of West's argument was right, thought he should have foxused more on young African American coaches waiting for their first chance at a HC gig in the NBA. Would have liked to see the Knicks go that route. A young coach who can relate to today's players, and get them to buy in.

werent you just pushing for Mike Miller?

Said both many times. You know that. First time I dont add Miller's name, you jump. Gotcha bs, really?

Welpee wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

houston20 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

houston20 wrote:Honestly david west is wrong about the knicks not hiring black coaches when knicks have hired more black coaches and black front office management position in the last 20 years then the whole nfl has. Lets look at facts the knicks have hired lot of black coaches 7 over last 20 years don cheaney, lenny wilkens, isiah thomas, herb williams, mike woodson, derrick fisher, and david fizdale. On the hire of black front office jobs the knicks have given black people are isiah thomas, steve mills, scott perry, craig robinson, walt perrimion, alan houston, and world wide wes. Former knick players working in the organization who are black larry johnson, john starks, john wallace, latrell sprewell, walt frazier off and on kurt thomas, allan houston, works sometimes with the organization marcus camby. David west and the media need to get there facts right especially espn because the knicks have hired more black people then any other organization in the nba or any other major sports league nfl, baseball, hockey, ect in last 20 years. Lets be fair nobody in the nba is screaming for isiah thomas, steve mills, david fizdale, or derrick fisher to get another nba job because there black.

Believe West was speaking of a league problem. The Knicks being the latest example. Guess you dont remember how Wilkins and Chaney were treated by the Knicks.

They were hired right cheaney and wilkins didn't have to take the job either. I understand there is lot crap deal with nyc because there expectation to be great its not for everybody. We can't say the knicks haven't been fair in the hiring black coaches give them interviews and jobs more then other sport in last 20 years. The nfl has problem hiring black coaches but we can say with the knicks they have hired lot of black coaches some didn't do well but were given a chance to coach. Why hasn't nba team or management screamed to get isiah thomas, steve mills, derrick fisher, or david fizdale another coaching job or front office job its because they sucked at there job nothing to do with race.

Its one thing to sing Thibs praises, its another to pretend like there isnt a reason Thibs is on his 3rd stop in 5 years. Not being able to trust his bench, is a big reason why.

I don't think that's fair because you can basically say that about every unemployed former head coach currently available. Jason Kidd would've been at his 3rd stop in 6 years.

There's a reason everybody is available. A perfect coach would already have a job. I think I would prefer going with a coach with a proven track record of winning and trust that he can adjust versus going with another young, relatively inexperienced coach that you hope is the next big thing. There's a reason nobody wants to touch Mark Jackson. Ty Lue is probably looked upon like Mike Brown, all of his success is tied to Lebron James. Some of the other younger African American candidates are completely unproven.

I think given our options, Thibs was probably the least risky direction we could go.

Not about being a perfect coach. Its about getting full control over the roster, and making the same mistakes. I want to hear that this stop will be different. Not a lot to ask.

GustavBahler wrote:

Welpee wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

houston20 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

houston20 wrote:Honestly david west is wrong about the knicks not hiring black coaches when knicks have hired more black coaches and black front office management position in the last 20 years then the whole nfl has. Lets look at facts the knicks have hired lot of black coaches 7 over last 20 years don cheaney, lenny wilkens, isiah thomas, herb williams, mike woodson, derrick fisher, and david fizdale. On the hire of black front office jobs the knicks have given black people are isiah thomas, steve mills, scott perry, craig robinson, walt perrimion, alan houston, and world wide wes. Former knick players working in the organization who are black larry johnson, john starks, john wallace, latrell sprewell, walt frazier off and on kurt thomas, allan houston, works sometimes with the organization marcus camby. David west and the media need to get there facts right especially espn because the knicks have hired more black people then any other organization in the nba or any other major sports league nfl, baseball, hockey, ect in last 20 years. Lets be fair nobody in the nba is screaming for isiah thomas, steve mills, david fizdale, or derrick fisher to get another nba job because there black.

Believe West was speaking of a league problem. The Knicks being the latest example. Guess you dont remember how Wilkins and Chaney were treated by the Knicks.

They were hired right cheaney and wilkins didn't have to take the job either. I understand there is lot crap deal with nyc because there expectation to be great its not for everybody. We can't say the knicks haven't been fair in the hiring black coaches give them interviews and jobs more then other sport in last 20 years. The nfl has problem hiring black coaches but we can say with the knicks they have hired lot of black coaches some didn't do well but were given a chance to coach. Why hasn't nba team or management screamed to get isiah thomas, steve mills, derrick fisher, or david fizdale another coaching job or front office job its because they sucked at there job nothing to do with race.

Its one thing to sing Thibs praises, its another to pretend like there isnt a reason Thibs is on his 3rd stop in 5 years. Not being able to trust his bench, is a big reason why.

I don't think that's fair because you can basically say that about every unemployed former head coach currently available. Jason Kidd would've been at his 3rd stop in 6 years.

There's a reason everybody is available. A perfect coach would already have a job. I think I would prefer going with a coach with a proven track record of winning and trust that he can adjust versus going with another young, relatively inexperienced coach that you hope is the next big thing. There's a reason nobody wants to touch Mark Jackson. Ty Lue is probably looked upon like Mike Brown, all of his success is tied to Lebron James. Some of the other younger African American candidates are completely unproven.

I think given our options, Thibs was probably the least risky direction we could go.

Not about being a perfect coach. Its about getting full control over the roster, and making the same mistakes. I want to hear that this stop will be different. Not a lot to ask.

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

y2zipper wrote:At the very least, we can all at least agree that Thibs isn't a "100% in on chasing free agents" hire like Fizdale was.

I don't agree with the context of West's take. Mark Jackson, Ty Lue and Jason Kidd are people who I'd never consider for an NBA coaching job if I'm a GM/President.

Mark Jackson was a fairly good coach who won't get another job because it became very publicly known that he fought with ownership and couldn't keep his house in order in Golden State and the on-court results weren't good enough to justify the baggage. The Warriors were worried that Jackson wasn't hiring good assistants, and that's a huge concern with a team like the Knicks who are young and in need of development. Warriors' ownership basically risked souring the relationship with Steph Curry to move off Jackson.

Ty Lue is a terrible coach that got a job purely because of his relationship with LeBron James. He even got interviewed for the Lakers' job when it was open again, becuase LeBron.

Patrick Ewing hasn't gotten a shot yet but will at some point, but he's a celebrity hire for the Knicks and they should probably stay away from him for now.

Believe the thrust of West's argument was right, thought he should have foxused more on young African American coaches waiting for their first chance at a HC gig in the NBA. Would have liked to see the Knicks go that route. A young coach who can relate to today's players, and get them to buy in.

werent you just pushing for Mike Miller?

Said both many times. You know that. First time I dont add Miller's name, you jump. Gotcha bs, really?

no its called hypocrisy. The argument is good enough for Thibs who you have an agenda against. But you were all about Miller Miller Miller. Thibs actually has a track record of improving players under him.... but lets go with what David West said. Right on

Ugh. Miller is a b-ball lifer who has been working most of his adult life, for the opportunity to be a head coach in the NBA. Big difference between a coach on his 3rd stop in 5 years, and a coach with his first shot, that ended prematurely. Shouldnt have to explain this. Never suggested age should be the only factor.

And once again, you bring up Miller when I dont...Marsha.