Knickfury11 wrote:

Nalod wrote:We have no culture!!!!
Team presidents.........Walsh, Grunwald, Mills, Jax, Mills.........
Coaches.........
Gm's..........

Failure is not a culture, its a symptom. Leon is a free agent builder? Obvious. But you still need homegrown talent and fodder for Trades!!!!
No team has succeeded without it.
WHy draft anyone then?

Devil’s advocate - pray tell how we establish culture / cure this symptom?

just because something has not happend does not mean it can't.
You clean house as we did you hit the rest button.
Just because Frank hsa not met expectations does not mean you dump him, knox, etc.
Its not generic. You now have a new front office. PErry answers to a new directive.
You can't change history.
Successful coach or exec does not change our history and our future is not guaranteed.
Culture takes time.
Each player in a new regime will be reevaluated based on merit and projected ability.
Age matters.
ONe more time, just becuase it has not happend does not mean it can't.
Thibs and Calipari would bring a coaching culture stronger than Atkinson or Woodson. All good choices.
Thibs and Calipari are "Cults of personality". That is a culture of sorts.
Woodson is a good coach and has been assitant to Larry Brown, MDA and Rivers. Good mentors and has done well on his own. Just not intense dudes like Cal and Thibs.
Atkinson brings a culture of development. That is a more of a team thing then "Cult of personality".
What is the best thing? I don't know. This team is a fresh canvas. for us to succeed will of course be a combonation of Development, trades, and free agents.

Sometimes it hard to see treasure in another man's trash....it has been a dumpster fire at MSG for a long time...Frank has been thru 3 coaches of which 2 never believed in him...

Smart teams would be lining up at the door to throw us late first maybe even a mid round pick...his real value is magnified in a winning situation....you put Frank on Golden state playing along shooter like Curry and Klay...Frank becomes a player..his versatility shines...right now he is included in our trash...but good teams..with smart FOs recognize that value and buy low....

Let's not play the sucker again people(see KP trade)....personally in order to trade Frank I need a difference maker coming back...because I am giving up one on the defensive end....

Knickfury11 wrote:No not at all untouchable. But it would have to be for a better deal. It really depends how you evaluate Frankie talent / potential vs his career time line.

Personally I want to build around Frankie / Mitch / RJ. But we have to be open to all deals for the better of the team.

What are the types of things that would make a better deal?

Knickfury11 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

ekstarks94 wrote:Fact is as much as Frank has up and downs he has one discernible NBA skill that is not just regular but elite level...

Sometimes it hard to see treasure in another man's trash....it has been a dumpster fire at MSG for a long time...Frank has been thru 3 coaches of which 2 never believed in him...

Smart teams would be lining up at the door to throw us late first maybe even a mid round pick...his real value is magnified in a winning situation....you put Frank on Golden state playing along shooter like Curry and Klay...Frank becomes a player..his versatility shines...right now he is included in our trash...but good teams..with smart FOs recognize that value and buy low....

Let's not play the sucker again people(see KP trade)....personally in order to trade Frank I need a difference maker coming back...because I am giving up one on the defensive end....

+1

But certain teams are not equipped to bring the best out in players. I believe in Frank; I just don't believe in the Knicks. It feels similar to the Oladipo situation in Orlando, where Oladipo had several listless seasons (as had several Magic players) before going supernova with the Pacers. If all we're going to do is handicap him, why not let him go for some floor-raising talent that we can have some cost-control on? It's obvious this team's emphasis will be via free agency and not player development, so I think trades like this have more appeal. While we're at it, I'd love to trade Kevin Knox for Mikal Bridges if the Suns would be willing to wait on Knox.

As for the KP trade, I don't have an issue with it on principal. We needed more in the deal and should've been a bit more creative with our return but KP at max as a solo star would be a bad idea.

Can’t help but feel bitterness about the whole KP trade. If it wasn’t for the injury we could have gotten far more assets in return. Bridges for Knox don’t really see a massive gain certainly long term.

I understand. I was pisses initially to; not because we were losing KP but because we should've dealt him a lot sooner. There's no way in my mind that we couldn't have gotten Jaylen Brown and that no.1 overall pick the Celtics had during that 2017 draft, if we made KP available. He was exactly what the Celtics have been looking for from their bigs and was inexpensive enough to still allow them to flesh out a team around him as well as their core (Kyrie, Gordon, Horford) with cap space. We would've botched the development of Brown and whatever we did with that pick but it was a far better value proposition than what we got.

Like I said though, I would've been comfortable with that Dallas deal if we demanded a couple more assets in return. First and foremost, it should never have occurred midseason. That hampered our ability to be creative with our ask. Had it occurred in the offseason, we could've involved third teams as well as sign-and-trades to help bridge the value gap. I would've been more than comfortable with this:

Knicks Trade: KP, Courtney Lee, THJr, Joakim Noah, Frank Ntilikina and cash
Knicks Recieve: Aaron Gordon (sign and trade), Wesley Matthews, Jalen Brunson (via the 33rd pick), Seth Curry (sign and trade), Salem Mejri, '21 and '23 DAL first rounders, 2020 GSW 2nd round pick and 2023 MIA 2nd round pick

Magic Trade: Aaron Gordon
Magic Recieve: Harrison Barnes, Dennis Smith Jr and cash via NYK

Mavericks get everything we gave up.

NardDogNation wrote:

Knickfury11 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

ekstarks94 wrote:Fact is as much as Frank has up and downs he has one discernible NBA skill that is not just regular but elite level...

Sometimes it hard to see treasure in another man's trash....it has been a dumpster fire at MSG for a long time...Frank has been thru 3 coaches of which 2 never believed in him...

Smart teams would be lining up at the door to throw us late first maybe even a mid round pick...his real value is magnified in a winning situation....you put Frank on Golden state playing along shooter like Curry and Klay...Frank becomes a player..his versatility shines...right now he is included in our trash...but good teams..with smart FOs recognize that value and buy low....

Let's not play the sucker again people(see KP trade)....personally in order to trade Frank I need a difference maker coming back...because I am giving up one on the defensive end....

+1

But certain teams are not equipped to bring the best out in players. I believe in Frank; I just don't believe in the Knicks. It feels similar to the Oladipo situation in Orlando, where Oladipo had several listless seasons (as had several Magic players) before going supernova with the Pacers. If all we're going to do is handicap him, why not let him go for some floor-raising talent that we can have some cost-control on? It's obvious this team's emphasis will be via free agency and not player development, so I think trades like this have more appeal. While we're at it, I'd love to trade Kevin Knox for Mikal Bridges if the Suns would be willing to wait on Knox.

As for the KP trade, I don't have an issue with it on principal. We needed more in the deal and should've been a bit more creative with our return but KP at max as a solo star would be a bad idea.

Can’t help but feel bitterness about the whole KP trade. If it wasn’t for the injury we could have gotten far more assets in return. Bridges for Knox don’t really see a massive gain certainly long term.

I understand. I was pisses initially to; not because we were losing KP but because we should've dealt him a lot sooner. There's no way in my mind that we couldn't have gotten Jaylen Brown and that no.1 overall pick the Celtics had during that 2017 draft, if we made KP available. He was exactly what the Celtics have been looking for from their bigs and was inexpensive enough to still allow them to flesh out a team around him as well as their core (Kyrie, Gordon, Horford) with cap space. We would've botched the development of Brown and whatever we did with that pick but it was a far better value proposition than what we got.

Like I said though, I would've been comfortable with that Dallas deal if we demanded a couple more assets in return. First and foremost, it should never have occurred midseason. That hampered our ability to be creative with our ask. Had it occurred in the offseason, we could've involved third teams as well as sign-and-trades to help bridge the value gap. I would've been more than comfortable with this:

Knicks Trade: KP, Courtney Lee, THJr, Joakim Noah, Frank Ntilikina and cash
Knicks Recieve: Aaron Gordon (sign and trade), Wesley Matthews, Jalen Brunson (via the 33rd pick), Seth Curry (sign and trade), Salem Mejri, '21 and '23 DAL first rounders, 2020 GSW 2nd round pick and 2023 MIA 2nd round pick

Magic Trade: Aaron Gordon
Magic Recieve: Harrison Barnes, Dennis Smith Jr and cash via NYK

Mavericks get everything we gave up.

Yeah that return is far more reasonable. DSJ as a centre piece player makes me nauseous. I’m still fragile about it...

knicks1248 wrote:

Knickfury11 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Knickfury11 wrote:No not at all untouchable. But it would have to be for a better deal. It really depends how you evaluate Frankie talent / potential vs his career time line.

Personally I want to build around Frankie / Mitch / RJ. But we have to be open to all deals for the better of the team.

What are the types of things that would make a better deal?

I’m still high on Frankie therefore I wouldn’t want to see him go for pieces that don’t move the needle enough. Frankie is one of the best defensive players at the PG spot his only competition being Marcus Smart / Derrick White / Kris Dunn. If his play continues on the upward trajectory on offence ( see last run of games ) we really have something here. Combine this with further development from Mitch & RJ, decent draft selections, astute free agency moves and there’s genuine cause for optimism for this franchise.

In summary just better business acumen. If Frankie is being moved then let’s get a decent substantial return. Multiple High caliber “2 way players” or high draft picks that would provide potential future improvements. Combination of both? Just not another KP trade haul debacle please

You would build your franchise around role players?

The entire NBA is about Spacing, running and shooting 3's, if your guards can't do that at a high level and your and Big's can't stretch the floor your toast, like we have been for the last 7 seasons.

frank is one of the players that will never get a fair shot because the knicks keep trying to replace what he lacks, they have tried with Payton, Jack, DSJ, Mudiay

A lot depends on Frankie offensive development ie consistent outside shooting at a high clip. And I agree due to him being unable to do this consistently Knicks have looked at different options at PG. All of which have largely sucked. Personally DSJ kills me.

I’m not opposed to adding to my initial core - Frankie, Mitch & RJ. Players as you say who can provide spacing, outside shooting etc. Just would prefer to keep that 3 together and add additional players via FA & draft.

Knickfury11 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Knickfury11 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Knickfury11 wrote:No not at all untouchable. But it would have to be for a better deal. It really depends how you evaluate Frankie talent / potential vs his career time line.

Personally I want to build around Frankie / Mitch / RJ. But we have to be open to all deals for the better of the team.

What are the types of things that would make a better deal?

I’m still high on Frankie therefore I wouldn’t want to see him go for pieces that don’t move the needle enough. Frankie is one of the best defensive players at the PG spot his only competition being Marcus Smart / Derrick White / Kris Dunn. If his play continues on the upward trajectory on offence ( see last run of games ) we really have something here. Combine this with further development from Mitch & RJ, decent draft selections, astute free agency moves and there’s genuine cause for optimism for this franchise.

In summary just better business acumen. If Frankie is being moved then let’s get a decent substantial return. Multiple High caliber “2 way players” or high draft picks that would provide potential future improvements. Combination of both? Just not another KP trade haul debacle please

You would build your franchise around role players?

The entire NBA is about Spacing, running and shooting 3's, if your guards can't do that at a high level and your and Big's can't stretch the floor your toast, like we have been for the last 7 seasons.

frank is one of the players that will never get a fair shot because the knicks keep trying to replace what he lacks, they have tried with Payton, Jack, DSJ, Mudiay

A lot depends on Frankie offensive development ie consistent outside shooting at a high clip. And I agree due to him being unable to do this consistently Knicks have looked at different options at PG. All of which have largely sucked. Personally DSJ kills me.

I’m not opposed to adding to my initial core - Frankie, Mitch & RJ. Players as you say who can provide spacing, outside shooting etc. Just would prefer to keep that 3 together and add additional players via FA & draft.

yeah we are adding FA, but they are to replace the production of Mitch and Frank in particular with Randle, portis, bullock and payton . There's nothing put PG's in this draft and most of them look better than the ones we have.

Take for instance if we get van fleet Via FA and draft a PG/SG, then you still have DSJ and RJ, franks minutes will disapper along with his confidence. My point is if your not going to use a player in a consistent role, with consistent minutes, quit jerking him around and trade him.

Like Nolad said, multiple presidents, Gms, coaching changes, and about 50 different teammates in the span of 3 yrs. I give frank a lot of credit for being humble, I would have been asked for a trade.

I don't know much about Justin Jackson, but I'm extremely impressed with Jalen Brunson. He will be (or is?!) a really solid, complete player. In the times I watched the Mavs, he looked like a veteran. But hey, what do you expect, he's already 23; he'll be 24 this summer! Brunson had a great college development arc: NCAA title as a key reserve, then another NCAA title as the driving force. CPOTY. That 2017 season in between the titles was a huge development period for him as a leader.

Exceptions to the rule? Maybe. But there are some late bloomers.