stanleybostitch wrote:

Vmart wrote:

TheGame wrote:We need a competent PG that will tell Randle to stop dribbling and take his butt to the low or mid post and stay there. Frank needs to grow some balls and stop deferring to Randle. I see RJ, Mitch, Frank, and Iggy as keepers. Knox may turn into a kEeper but his defense is so bad and his offense so erratic that I don't know about him. I would like to keep Dotson. Everyone else should be shopped. Obviously we cannot trade everyone but we do need to try to pickup at least two high second round picks. I would look to trade Knox, Trier, and Morris. We should get some decent picks back, then we tank the rest of the season and hope we can draft a competent PG in the draft.

Any PG will get sent to the bench if they don’t carry out Fizdale’s orders and execute his offense.

This is precisely the problem with Fiz. It's beyond frustrating that Frank's apparent role in this offense is to bring the ball up, hand it off to someone at the top of the key, and then just camp out on a corner baseline. He's not being allowed to facilitate, instead deferring to Randle who can't handle the ball for ****. We need a coach who will give Frank the freedom to run the offense. The PnR w/Mitch yesterday was a thing of beauty - we should be featuring that a dozen times a game instead of once a month!

This.

fwk00 wrote:

franco12 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

franco12 wrote:Actually - do we have any players that are keepers? Look, Mitch, RJ have promise.

But, will Mitch ever be able to stop fouling? We don't know. We hope.

RJ definitely looks like a nice talent. But is he a franchise talent? DO you see a player that might be in the running to be an MVP? I don't. All Star, yes for sure.

But we need to be focused on building a championship team.

I say everyone should be available in a trade. If there is a top 3 pick in a solid draft and someone asks for RJ, we need to evaluate and possibly say yes.

I'd see what we can get for DSjr. Maybe it's package.

But, we got nothing for Mudiay and after the season he had, we should have retained or traded him at the deadline last year.

I'll accept that we wouldn't have gotten a lot, but not even a 2nd rounder?

And if a 2nd rounder is all we can get for DSjr, do it. I just don't see a future for him here.

We definitely have 2 potential future all stars in RJ and Mitch and a couple other potential role players in Ntilikina and knox. At this stage that’s all you can ask. We have to get a guard in this draft and get a good one.

I have hope he will, but if Mitch can't avoid averaging a foul a minute, he won't be in any all star game.

Knox and Frank are nice, but if someone offered you a potential top ten pick in a future draft, you'd be crazy not to take it.

The magical thinking with top ten picks is eternal on these boards. Frank and Knox ARE top ten picks who have paid some dues. Why reboot that same cycle over and over and over?

No they aren't generational stars but nobody is trading you one of those intentionally. What they are trading is a lottery ticket. Frankie and Knox are actually two of the more optimistic examples of what that comes out like.

This is not to say they're untradable, simply that that kind of trade isn't even a lateral move.

Yeah the idea of just playing the lottery over and over again is why this fan base gets a rep for not being patient. Knox and frank are still so young. Younger than some rookies. They aren’t untradable by any means but deserve patience to develop.

knicks1248 wrote:

Papabear wrote:Papabear Says

We've been sucking for the past 18 years. Giving away our draft picks and gave away the whole team for Melo. There is no future with these players. Randle is a poor version of Melo.

We are on pace to have a 3rd 17 win season in like 4 yrs under this FO.

74 mill in cap space, and you can't even build a 500 team.

Fizales is like 69 games under 500, pacing himself for 1 win out of every 7 to 10 games.

Perry is a well below avg GM who hasn't made a single trade to get us better only worse.

How does a president, a GM, and a coach HOLD THEMSELVES Accountable.

I expect Dennis to EARN the starting job at some point given his talent. I expect RJ to be the 3 at some point his career. I expect we draft the best player possible and not by position. If that means PG, the better. I expect Knox is growing into those bigger shoulders and the demands the coaches are making for them and others to play respectable NBA defense. Trier is on the bench for this. Knicks are a better team than last year despite the record. Im talking about post KP trade, post Tim Hardaway. The record does not reflect this. We had no closer last year and don't this. There was none to be had in Free agency. Our choices are Randle bullies his way in or Morris is the creator. All temporary.

Fire Fiz won't solve this season. How do you develop the "kids" better?

There is a metric to fire a coach when the blowouts are constant and the team has given up and the coach has lost his voice and will. When and if we get there then he has to go.

Last night we lost to a Boston team that has two bona-fide closers in Tatum and Walker. They did their jobs well. Smith had to play big minutes given frank being out. Morris and Randle are your closers. That's your problem. Durant not playing this year and Kyrie on this team would be even bigger personality issue. Despite our starphuch dreams there was no solution to this season.
Nalod focused more on the micro. Rainman in the Macro. None of us are right or wrong. Its frustrating but for fans we don't know the inside workings of this team and where it is failing as an organization. On the outside results fans want change. I want change. But it has to be purposeful and not a starphuch. Fire Fiz. Then what? Fire Mills/Perry? Then what?

Fear: WE trade Morris, Frank, Future pick(s) for Derozen and resign him for 4 years.

There’s glimpses of promise from some of our guys but we don’t have a single talent that I’d balk at being in a package for a great player. And that really is sad.

Knixkik wrote:

franco12 wrote:Actually - do we have any players that are keepers? Look, Mitch, RJ have promise.

But, will Mitch ever be able to stop fouling? We don't know. We hope.

RJ definitely looks like a nice talent. But is he a franchise talent? DO you see a player that might be in the running to be an MVP? I don't. All Star, yes for sure.

But we need to be focused on building a championship team.

I say everyone should be available in a trade. If there is a top 3 pick in a solid draft and someone asks for RJ, we need to evaluate and possibly say yes.

I'd see what we can get for DSjr. Maybe it's package.

But, we got nothing for Mudiay and after the season he had, we should have retained or traded him at the deadline last year.

I'll accept that we wouldn't have gotten a lot, but not even a 2nd rounder?

And if a 2nd rounder is all we can get for DSjr, do it. I just don't see a future for him here.

We definitely have 2 potential future all stars in RJ and Mitch and a couple other potential role players in Ntilikina and knox. At this stage that’s all you can ask. We have to get a guard in this draft and get a good one.

This is the problem with a rebuilding franchise. It's a whole bunch of maybe's. Saying RJ and Mitch are future All Stars is just speculation and hope. Both have a long way to go and may never get there. Unfortunately for us, we have no other choice but to hope, wait and see.

In terms of other realistic expectations. did anyone really expect a unit with this many new faces to gel within the first 20 games? If everyone is going to say they are truly ok with rebuilding, then you must have the patience to watch the many growing pains. This includes watching kids play longer minutes, make plenty of mistakes and still find ways of boosting their confidence. Understand that not all will pan out to expectations. Give free agents time to settle in and get accustomed to playing with each other. And give a new young coach more than a year to win. Fans are not doing any of this. Think this is the biggest reason why I don't think the Knicks will ever be able to rebuild. Media, owner and fan base do not have the stomach for a true rebuild. Add that the FO has already failed holding on to our only All Star draft pick and it gives me little confidence.

As for going forward. Hoping that we start giving the young guys more playing time. As we saw with Frank, its the only way they can gain confidence and the experience to improve. Think Dotson has done so as well. Smith also looked better last night when given the time. Think we need to do the same with Trier. Also hope we pick up some draft picks unloading some of out short term pieces. Still think Randle is tough down low and can make the team better by moving the ball more but looking more like Morris was a better long term fit.

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Papabear wrote:Papabear Says

We've been sucking for the past 18 years. Giving away our draft picks and gave away the whole team for Melo. There is no future with these players. Randle is a poor version of Melo.

We are on pace to have a 3rd 17 win season in like 4 yrs under this FO.

74 mill in cap space, and you can't even build a 500 team.

Fizales is like 69 games under 500, pacing himself for 1 win out of every 7 to 10 games.

Perry is a well below avg GM who hasn't made a single trade to get us better only worse.

How does a president, a GM, and a coach HOLD THEMSELVES Accountable.

I expect Dennis to EARN the starting job at some point given his talent. I expect RJ to be the 3 at some point his career. I expect we draft the best player possible and not by position. If that means PG, the better. I expect Knox is growing into those bigger shoulders and the demands the coaches are making for them and others to play respectable NBA defense. Trier is on the bench for this. Knicks are a better team than last year despite the record. Im talking about post KP trade, post Tim Hardaway. The record does not reflect this. We had no closer last year and don't this. There was none to be had in Free agency. Our choices are Randle bullies his way in or Morris is the creator. All temporary.

Fire Fiz won't solve this season. How do you develop the "kids" better?

There is a metric to fire a coach when the blowouts are constant and the team has given up and the coach has lost his voice and will. When and if we get there then he has to go.

Last night we lost to a Boston team that has two bona-fide closers in Tatum and Walker. They did their jobs well. Smith had to play big minutes given frank being out. Morris and Randle are your closers. That's your problem. Durant not playing this year and Kyrie on this team would be even bigger personality issue. Despite our starphuch dreams there was no solution to this season.
Nalod focused more on the micro. Rainman in the Macro. None of us are right or wrong. Its frustrating but for fans we don't know the inside workings of this team and where it is failing as an organization. On the outside results fans want change. I want change. But it has to be purposeful and not a starphuch. Fire Fiz. Then what? Fire Mills/Perry? Then what?

Fear: WE trade Morris, Frank, Future pick(s) for Derozen and resign him for 4 years.

So don't fire anyone and keep getting the same results..17 wins.

This regime is done(they are looked upon as a joke throughout the NBA) no real players are coming to play for them unless you over pay them big time

They don't want to financially commit to any real players...They continue to sign one yr players and are getting the same results.

do we need to go 0-82 before they are replaced..

Im asking questions before suggesting firing. I need to know the core of dysfunction and to whom I look to hire that provides substance to the next regime. When Isiah took over for Layden he made a lot of changes for the better, but it never really added up.
When Isiah was made gone the plan was bring in a solid guy to clean it up. He did, but no where in Donnies DNA does he ever in his success at Indy sign an Amare or blow the team out to trade for Melo. See the pattern? Its the owners who drives it. Dolan is rebuilding. Why is it not working?
We have been thru this 100 times. Dolan reacts to the circumstances in panic moves.
I'd rather we lose 5 more years then keep making knee jerk changes that don't add up.
Until you present a respectable alternative other than "Mills sucks" and detail how they are failing then your little more than a ranting Rain Man.

6 years of being the worst franchise in the NBA under mills, and your talking about knee jerk reaction and we should wait another 5 yrs before we make a change..That's what you would do if you were DOLAN?

Mills, Perry and Fiz, will be fired sooner than later..

knicks1248 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Papabear wrote:Papabear Says

We've been sucking for the past 18 years. Giving away our draft picks and gave away the whole team for Melo. There is no future with these players. Randle is a poor version of Melo.

We are on pace to have a 3rd 17 win season in like 4 yrs under this FO.

74 mill in cap space, and you can't even build a 500 team.

Fizales is like 69 games under 500, pacing himself for 1 win out of every 7 to 10 games.

Perry is a well below avg GM who hasn't made a single trade to get us better only worse.

How does a president, a GM, and a coach HOLD THEMSELVES Accountable.

I expect Dennis to EARN the starting job at some point given his talent. I expect RJ to be the 3 at some point his career. I expect we draft the best player possible and not by position. If that means PG, the better. I expect Knox is growing into those bigger shoulders and the demands the coaches are making for them and others to play respectable NBA defense. Trier is on the bench for this. Knicks are a better team than last year despite the record. Im talking about post KP trade, post Tim Hardaway. The record does not reflect this. We had no closer last year and don't this. There was none to be had in Free agency. Our choices are Randle bullies his way in or Morris is the creator. All temporary.

Fire Fiz won't solve this season. How do you develop the "kids" better?

There is a metric to fire a coach when the blowouts are constant and the team has given up and the coach has lost his voice and will. When and if we get there then he has to go.

Last night we lost to a Boston team that has two bona-fide closers in Tatum and Walker. They did their jobs well. Smith had to play big minutes given frank being out. Morris and Randle are your closers. That's your problem. Durant not playing this year and Kyrie on this team would be even bigger personality issue. Despite our starphuch dreams there was no solution to this season.
Nalod focused more on the micro. Rainman in the Macro. None of us are right or wrong. Its frustrating but for fans we don't know the inside workings of this team and where it is failing as an organization. On the outside results fans want change. I want change. But it has to be purposeful and not a starphuch. Fire Fiz. Then what? Fire Mills/Perry? Then what?

Fear: WE trade Morris, Frank, Future pick(s) for Derozen and resign him for 4 years.

So don't fire anyone and keep getting the same results..17 wins.

This regime is done(they are looked upon as a joke throughout the NBA) no real players are coming to play for them unless you over pay them big time

They don't want to financially commit to any real players...They continue to sign one yr players and are getting the same results.

do we need to go 0-82 before they are replaced..

Im asking questions before suggesting firing. I need to know the core of dysfunction and to whom I look to hire that provides substance to the next regime. When Isiah took over for Layden he made a lot of changes for the better, but it never really added up.
When Isiah was made gone the plan was bring in a solid guy to clean it up. He did, but no where in Donnies DNA does he ever in his success at Indy sign an Amare or blow the team out to trade for Melo. See the pattern? Its the owners who drives it. Dolan is rebuilding. Why is it not working?
We have been thru this 100 times. Dolan reacts to the circumstances in panic moves.
I'd rather we lose 5 more years then keep making knee jerk changes that don't add up.
Until you present a respectable alternative other than "Mills sucks" and detail how they are failing then your little more than a ranting Rain Man.

6 years of being the worst franchise in the NBA under mills, and your talking about knee jerk reaction and we should wait another 5 yrs before we make a change..That's what you would do if you were DOLAN?

Mills, Perry and Fiz, will be fired sooner than later..

Every person will die and every professional will be fired sooner or later.
So you are right and we are wrong. Your Ego can be satisfied.
Don't worry man - just be happy.

fitzfarm wrote:Look we have some nice role players, and a potential star in Barrett 2 years down the road. There’s a plethora of great PG’s coming out of the draft. We have had 3 really bad years, this is what a rebuild looks like.

The only thing I can’t stand is the lack of hustle we need a proven winner as a coach. Someone who can teach these kids, I don’t care if we loose as long as we give 110% and know we left it all out on the floor... if you don’t you don’t play period.

We are getting out worked on a nightly basis last night when we went up in the first quarter, the raptors just out hustled us they actually gave a S HIt. That team is a well oiled machine, thanks to great coaching... they lost there best player were without there best player in lowery... just look at there bench a bunch of nobody’s. Yes they have a star in pascal, a washed up center in gasol, and a potential 6th man of the year in van vleet.

Everyone on our team isn’t even giving 70 % except for frank and Gibson. That is unacceptable, and that falls solely on the entire coaching staff.

Is this team good no and I don’t even expect a great coach to get this team a winning record... is this team better then 4 wins tied for the worst record in the league, yes absolutely.

Management needs to fire fiz and the staff to show the players we are not going to accept half Assing... we are bringing in a proven winner as a coach and you as players are next on the block if you don’t give 110%

Right now we could put out a g league squad and have a better chance of winning at least they will hustle.

Right now this team is on easy street with no accountability basically going through the motions to collect a paycheck. It’s unacceptable.

Keepers
Barrett
Frank
Knox
Gibson
Robinson
Iggy
Zo

The rest can go

We need to keep building through the draft eventually we are going to strike gold. We should be looking to gather as many first round picks as possible.

Steps to success

fire fiz and entire staff

Bring in a proven winner that holds players accountable and can build a winning culture.

Trade the high priced role players for picks

Maybe open up cap space for a star but don’t count on it.

Next year this team could look like

Pg: top five pick, frank, Payton
Sg: Barrett, zo and dot
Sf: Knox,first round pick from Randal,iggy
Pf: first round pick from Morris, free agent signing
C: Robinson, Gibson

We should also see if someone is willing to give us a first for dsjr

And next year still a lottery team but with another top 5 pick and Dallas pick

Pg: 2020 top pick, Frank, Payton
Sg: Barrett, zo, dot
Sf:2021 top 5 pick, knox, 2020 first round
Pf:2020first, Dallas pick
C: Robinson,Gibson

Hopefully with some of the lottery talent can attract a star throw the Greek freak in that squad and we are contenders. the rebuild is finished by 2021 and we contend for the next 10 years.

That is what a rebuild looks like everyone buckle in and enjoy the circus it’s gonna be a bumpy ride.

Nalod wrote:Sure looks bad. TO be fair, we dumped a lot of salary, KP was damaged goods at the time and we were losing leverage if we waited.
KP is now paired with a rising superstar. Dennis looks bad at the moment. The trade looks awful but I’m to Not sure it really ever looked that great to begin with!
Dolan panicked when Phil had the balls to do what was needed in the face of unpopularity.

at least we cleared salary and used it on signing free agents that moved the needle...the wrong way

I can't blame anyone for taking the Dallas trade when they did. I still expect KP to miss chunks of seasons with injuries. It was probably the best looking deal at the time.

And that is one more reason to fire Fizdale to try to work out what is wrong with DSjr because right now, I'd release him to make room for a G Leager!

franco12 wrote:

Nalod wrote:Sure looks bad. TO be fair, we dumped a lot of salary, KP was damaged goods at the time and we were losing leverage if we waited.
KP is now paired with a rising superstar. Dennis looks bad at the moment. The trade looks awful but I’m to Not sure it really ever looked that great to begin with!
Dolan panicked when Phil had the balls to do what was needed in the face of unpopularity.

at least we cleared salary and used it on signing free agents that moved the needle...the wrong way

I can't blame anyone for taking the Dallas trade when they did. I still expect KP to miss chunks of seasons with injuries. It was probably the best looking deal at the time.

And that is one more reason to fire Fizdale to try to work out what is wrong with DSjr because right now, I'd release him to make room for a G Leager!

The problem with DSjr and other youth is expectations running to high.
Knicks fan base is not used to building and developing.
This is hard, long, and unpredictable process filled with ups and downs, misses and hits, and a lot of loosing.
Some random dude from GL or any other random reclamation project has no expectations attached.
So even marginal usefulness perceived as still.
Same for some vest with which we familiar only from stats and highlights.
Being available on short inexpensive contract means they are not a hot commodity.
So expectations should be much lower that we all have.
Only Morris whom we get for some random reason is somehow exceeding expectations.
They are what they are and not a part of the future. They just assets and instruments for building.
We will have a lot of other passing by so why care much?