knicks1248 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Dude development means you should be seeing progress, from the F/O to the last player on the bench, and there's been little to none at all.

Every season it's a different excuse to be bad team, then call it a rebuild. This is mills 3rd full season as TOP dog, and so far 29 wins, 17 wins, and on pace for 15 wins this season.

Players around the league look at this franchise as one with no direction, no stability, no identity, no luck and a in experience from top to bottom..

6 yrs of not even sniffing the playoffs, and your calling for patience, does it need to be 10 full yrs.

Taking 70 million and Building a roster that doesn't fit, adding players with the same skill set, a roster that you can essentially tear down(after dec 15th) 90 days after you assembled it, and start all over again..

Nothing or noone seems stable in the entire organization, which is why a 21 yr old is your longest tenured player.

You have patience when your seeing progress..

I know you heard the FiRE Fizdale chants last night, because i heard them loud and clear...not entirely his fault but he has a lot be concerned about

You cite symptoms. Can you offer any suggestions to what they need to do?

HIRE EXPERIENCE PEOPLE WITH PROVEN TRACK RECORDS

In the workplace there's 3 things that will always happen when you hire in experience ppl..

1)A VERY HIGH employee TURNOVER RATE- which explains our roster being purged every yr

2)VERY LOW PRODUCTION- have you looked at our win total

3)You won't attract the best talent.. see 2019 summer haul

This will seem funny to you, but by most measures Mills has been successful in his previous capacities. True he has not run a team before.
The murky debate of him as President or GM with Phil as his boss is debatable. Traditionally the team president is accountable for everything. Fan experience, profits, losses, Transportation contracts, Concessions, Gleague, Hotels, the training staff, Doctors, medial, human resouces benefits etc. The finances including the contracts. It all reports to him. The GM is in charge of roster, coaches hiring, or basically the produt on the floor. This gets murky with Phil. I'd say he had final say on many matters but functioned as GM mostly.
When Phil left Mills assumed the title as president but likely continued with his duties that most presidents assume. I think this is why he hired a GM ASAP. If you can't understand this I think your just being Rainman closed.
A team president need not have a winning track record. A GM should. Issue is when it was time to pick one what existing GM was ready to leave his post and assume Knicks job? What was the available talent? Lets be real, it would be a dude already fired or burnt out. THen you want an assistant. Perry worked in Seattle when they were basically tanking and rebuilding, so he worked under or with Presti. In Detroit he worked with a championship team. In Orlando, He was assistant to Rob Hennigan who had a bad run. Granted, a year after he was gone Orlando gets to playoffs as a 7th seed. Hennigans tenure was kind of bizzare at times but what you don't know is what was ownerships demands to change course out of frustration and "win now". That changes everything. What was Perry's role? Was his opinion contrary to Hennigans? Was he a yes person loyal to his GM or the team? Somewhere he build a reputation.

Mills reputation as president of MSG and after was enough he almost became head of the NBA union. That's Cred. His job as MSG president had Isiah Thomas Reporting to him. After all these years and what you read its apparent Dolan held Thomas in the highest regard and nearly blind to his issues. Dolan is very trusting. My opinion is he paid Mills well to come back and he really did owe him as he screwed him over the Anucha thing.

In hindsight it all looks easy. Hire Coach Bud. I might agree given his track record and pedigree under Pop. Pop actually was Larry Browns assistant coach and was had an awful start until god granted him Timmy. Bud would have been my pick. Fiz was attractive at the time also. He was personable, charismatic and this team needed time. If all we have are media reports I'll go with that. yeah, Bud would have been cool. KP never spend a minute under Fiz, so not sure that issue resolves any different.

knicks1248 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Dude development means you should be seeing progress, from the F/O to the last player on the bench, and there's been little to none at all.

Every season it's a different excuse to be bad team, then call it a rebuild. This is mills 3rd full season as TOP dog, and so far 29 wins, 17 wins, and on pace for 15 wins this season.

Players around the league look at this franchise as one with no direction, no stability, no identity, no luck and a in experience from top to bottom..

6 yrs of not even sniffing the playoffs, and your calling for patience, does it need to be 10 full yrs.

Taking 70 million and Building a roster that doesn't fit, adding players with the same skill set, a roster that you can essentially tear down(after dec 15th) 90 days after you assembled it, and start all over again..

Nothing or noone seems stable in the entire organization, which is why a 21 yr old is your longest tenured player.

You have patience when your seeing progress..

I know you heard the FiRE Fizdale chants last night, because i heard them loud and clear...not entirely his fault but he has a lot be concerned about

You cite symptoms. Can you offer any suggestions to what they need to do?

HIRE EXPERIENCE PEOPLE WITH PROVEN TRACK RECORDS

In the workplace there's 3 things that will always happen when you hire in experience ppl..

1)A VERY HIGH employee TURNOVER RATE- which explains our roster being purged every yr

2)VERY LOW PRODUCTION- have you looked at our win total

3)You won't attract the best talent.. see 2019 summer haul

This will seem funny to you, but by most measures Mills has been successful in his previous capacities. True he has not run a team before.
The murky debate of him as President or GM with Phil as his boss is debatable. Traditionally the team president is accountable for everything. Fan experience, profits, losses, Transportation contracts, Concessions, Gleague, Hotels, the training staff, Doctors, medial, human resouces benefits etc. The finances including the contracts. It all reports to him. The GM is in charge of roster, coaches hiring, or basically the produt on the floor. This gets murky with Phil. I'd say he had final say on many matters but functioned as GM mostly.
When Phil left Mills assumed the title as president but likely continued with his duties that most presidents assume. I think this is why he hired a GM ASAP. If you can't understand this I think your just being Rainman closed.
A team president need not have a winning track record. A GM should. Issue is when it was time to pick one what existing GM was ready to leave his post and assume Knicks job? What was the available talent? Lets be real, it would be a dude already fired or burnt out. THen you want an assistant. Perry worked in Seattle when they were basically tanking and rebuilding, so he worked under or with Presti. In Detroit he worked with a championship team. In Orlando, He was assistant to Rob Hennigan who had a bad run. Granted, a year after he was gone Orlando gets to playoffs as a 7th seed. Hennigans tenure was kind of bizzare at times but what you don't know is what was ownerships demands to change course out of frustration and "win now". That changes everything. What was Perry's role? Was his opinion contrary to Hennigans? Was he a yes person loyal to his GM or the team? Somewhere he build a reputation.

Mills reputation as president of MSG and after was enough he almost became head of the NBA union. That's Cred. His job as MSG president had Isiah Thomas Reporting to him. After all these years and what you read its apparent Dolan held Thomas in the highest regard and nearly blind to his issues. Dolan is very trusting. My opinion is he paid Mills well to come back and he really did owe him as he screwed him over the Anucha thing.

In hindsight it all looks easy. Hire Coach Bud. I might agree given his track record and pedigree under Pop. Pop actually was Larry Browns assistant coach and was had an awful start until god granted him Timmy. Bud would have been my pick. Fiz was attractive at the time also. He was personable, charismatic and this team needed time. If all we have are media reports I'll go with that. yeah, Bud would have been cool. KP never spend a minute under Fiz, so not sure that issue resolves any different.

I'm just saying, as a GM/President you missed out on Trey young one yr and Ja Morant the very next, I would have traded and used all my resources to get a franchise changing PG..

I know I have a very in experience coach, so i need to get an absolute floor general who can score, penetrate, shoot 3's and assist at a high level..that means, Knox, frank, Mitch, the dallas picks and our own picks, would have been on the table to either move up in the draft or acquire through a trade.

By the time of the draft, it was well established that we had no shot at any of the TOP FA pg.

What makes you think they weren't on the table? Anyway, I'm happy with the RJ pick. Maybe we pick up a stud PG in next year's draft?

Vmart wrote:The fan base is capable of rebuilding if they see progress. The organization I don’t know if they are capable of hiring the right staff and coaches to do the rebuild. The organization f’s it up and the fans get antsy because they keep hiring poorly with out a plan. Fizdale was not a rebuilding plan he was a free agency lure. Rebuilding in the back burner. Free agency falls apart now stuck with non rebuilding coach.

I think this is a good point.
We often forget what comes first and what second.
Knicks are in situation when rebuild became inevitable. Long rebuild.
The last shortcut to get top FAs having cap failed as it should.
So there is no choice now.
Fans must be able to tolerate the rebuild or look for other team to root for.
Same goes for ownership. They need to let this thing to do on its own pace.
Fiz may resign himself if he will feel it is too much for him to experience.
Firing him is just useless waste of money. The coach is mostly irrelevant at this point.

In other words, rebuilding is not antithetical to winning along the way. That's precisely the issue being debated. I think both the FO and Dolan [because the FO sold it this way] reasonably expected better results. Every Knicks fan with a brain laments a number of the losses we've borne witness to this year. You could say WE ALL had higher expectations - not that we'd compete for a championship but that we'd have a shot at the playoffs.

So, clearing the air, is actually a very responsible exercise in accountability. Fizdale, in no uncertain terms, has marching orders - win games you can win, the time for player therapy, pet theories, and patience is over. What that can mean comes in a couple of flavors;

Fizdale may just let go of the rope and psychologically realize he's not a head coach or not a head coach for this team.

OR!, he needs to do something along the lines of the following;

1.) Memorize the fact that "The Power Forwards on this team are not and never, ever, ever will be Point Forwards". Whenever he gets the idea that they are, he should be shocked by a cattle prod in the derriere.

2.) Given the current roster, a second PF should never, ever, ever be on the court at the same time acting in the role of SF. Never, ever.

3.) Julius Randle is not learning anything during games. Nada. Bench him to the end of the PF line until in his limited minutes he either passes or scores without more than one bounce of the basketball. Two bounces and he sits a game.

4.) The PGs need to be allowed to be PGs. No more third party proxies. Trier is not a PG, Randle is not a PG. And so on with the obvious stupid ball handler experiments. ENOUGH!

5.) With the bench strength supplied by the FO. Why, oh why, are we not running opponents out of the game? With this roster you play ISO ball squared????????? WTF?

6.) The identity of the team staring Fizdale in the face is a defensive-minded game. In FO discussions, he should be raw and blunt. DSJ, Trier, and Randle should all be getting shopped early if, for no other reason, than to thin the department of dubious redundancy.

7.) Play youth in games less likely to be victories. Great experience and little to lose. Play the vets off the bench.

In clearing the air, the FO needs to leverage the losing into a hardening of the roster exercise. Kadeem Allen and Wooten need to be promoted into the 15 man roster as defensive specialists. [The center position needs to give Wooten a look].

1.) That means two or more expendable Knicks get moved for a more useful player and/or a pick. Strike early.

2.) Tell Fizdale that Frankie is the primary PG we are riding until further notice.

3.) Remind the coaching staff that we aren't tanking anymore. [Its an old Phil Ochs song]

4.) Send the coaching staff to a Pick and Roll professional development seminar.

Fans are calling for ANOTHER coaching change as if thats the problem. I don't agree with some of the decisions that Fiz as made but did NY Fans really think this team, as currently constructed, were going to many games? really?

We have a team full of roles players and NO POINT GUARD (I don' think I will never understand this fascination with Frank). I think Morris, Randle, Barrett, Mitchell and Knox are good players to build with but, unfortunately, if we want to upgrade the Center and Point Guard, doing the season, we will probably have to deal one or two of those players.

Point is, fans are quick to blame the coach when the real problem is the front office not being able to sign players that will make a significant impact or contribuation. Again, I don't agree with everything Fiz is doing but it is unfair to judge him when he has been given inadequate pieces to work with.

HofstraBBall wrote:

fwk00 wrote:Something that I like about both Dolan and the FO is that they are wholly aware of the fact that the idea of "rebuilding" has no fixed definition.

In other words, rebuilding is not antithetical to winning along the way. That's precisely the issue being debated. I think both the FO and Dolan [because the FO sold it this way] reasonably expected better results. Every Knicks fan with a brain laments a number of the losses we've borne witness to this year. You could say WE ALL had higher expectations - not that we'd compete for a championship but that we'd have a shot at the playoffs.

So, clearing the air, is actually a very responsible exercise in accountability. Fizdale, in no uncertain terms, has marching orders - win games you can win, the time for player therapy, pet theories, and patience is over. What that can mean comes in a couple of flavors;

Fizdale may just let go of the rope and psychologically realize he's not a head coach or not a head coach for this team.

OR!, he needs to do something along the lines of the following;

1.) Memorize the fact that "The Power Forwards on this team are not and never, ever, ever will be Point Forwards". Whenever he gets the idea that they are, he should be shocked by a cattle prod in the derriere.

2.) Given the current roster, a second PF should never, ever, ever be on the court at the same time acting in the role of SF. Never, ever.

3.) Julius Randle is not learning anything during games. Nada. Bench him to the end of the PF line until in his limited minutes he either passes or scores without more than one bounce of the basketball. Two bounces and he sits a game.

4.) The PGs need to be allowed to be PGs. No more third party proxies. Trier is not a PG, Randle is not a PG. And so on with the obvious stupid ball handler experiments. ENOUGH!

5.) With the bench strength supplied by the FO. Why, oh why, are we not running opponents out of the game? With this roster you play ISO ball squared????????? WTF?

6.) The identity of the team staring Fizdale in the face is a defensive-minded game. In FO discussions, he should be raw and blunt. DSJ, Trier, and Randle should all be getting shopped early if, for no other reason, than to thin the department of dubious redundancy.

7.) Play youth in games less likely to be victories. Great experience and little to lose. Play the vets off the bench.

In clearing the air, the FO needs to leverage the losing into a hardening of the roster exercise. Kadeem Allen and Wooten need to be promoted into the 15 man roster as defensive specialists. [The center position needs to give Wooten a look].

1.) That means two or more expendable Knicks get moved for a more useful player and/or a pick. Strike early. WHO?

See my previous paragraph. You harden a team in three ways add, subtract, or trade.

Personally, I move DSJ asap to any team whose PG situation is thin. Get me a second-rounder. I want to move Kadeem Allen up a notch. Frankie, Payton, Allen - that's it. If we're unhappy at year's end then we can draft a PG and the draft is rich in that position.

AND, I let them play. I don't take the ball out of their hands for any PF bullsh@t.

AND I tell the MSM that that's the pecking order for the year. It ain't changing.

With that open spot, I add Wooten as the third Center. He plays D and Gibson absolutely lays better ball than Portis or Randall at that position. Again. I don't need to tweak myself into a knot at that position.

If I can move Portis or Randall, I'm looking for a pick or a useful body off the bench.

2.) Tell Fizdale that Frankie is the primary PG we are riding until further notice. If he dissapears like he does 50% of the time, why would he do that?

I'm not convinced Frankie disappears - the ball disappears when he's instructed to fix Randall and Morris' games by deferring to them. Give Frankie a system so that he gets the ball back with meaningful decision-making time.

I think its the chaos of the coaching and not Frankie that is the problem.

3.) Remind the coaching staff that we aren't tanking anymore. [Its an old Phil Ochs song]
Think the fact they are playing the Vets indicate they know that.

The "vets" are as young as the rest of the team. They need a system and a coach who holds them accountable.

Empty words [Fizdale] don't cut it.

4.) Send the coaching staff to a Pick and Roll professional development seminar.

Do we have a 5 that can pop and hit a 15 footer? Sets a pick correctly? Do we have a PG that can make a defense pay for favoring the 5 off a pick?

We might have all that if we had a slight adjustment to the roster [Wooten] AND a creative coach. This ain't on the players.

See the inline responses as well.