TPercy wrote:Was it just me or did Dennis Smith shot look...shot? Like the release was just way too slow, no confidence,etc..?

And the way they consistently fell short, bouncing off the rim not even close. His shot looks bad. He looks bad all around.

I feel bad because he seems to want to do better, but he is terrible. Probably injured.

Knicksfan wrote:

TPercy wrote:Was it just me or did Dennis Smith shot look...shot? Like the release was just way too slow, no confidence,etc..?

And the way they consistently fell short, bouncing off the rim not even close. His shot looks bad. He looks bad all around.

I feel bad because he seems to want to do better, but he is terrible. Probably injured.

Nalod wrote:

Marv wrote:

Nalod wrote:We are jumping to conclusions. I thought Payton should get the nod given his veteran status.
2;54 seconds is not enough to indict Frank. We have seen progress.
SMith has me most concerned. His lift and shot was bizarre last night. He looks hurt. Given he was the key piece of KP trade it makes me a bit queasy.
Trier’s defense was awful.
I’d go with Payton and frank to back up.

yeah it's not just 2.54. it's a full season, a preseason and 2.54. i think all the writing's on the wall at this point. frank & fiz ain't a drink that's gonna sell.

Marv, Im not sugar coating this with fairy dust. He has a lot to prove and last nite was awful. He had some bad passes, one might have been either a flat out bad pass or Randle did not continue to secure it.
He had a shot goal tended and a great pick and roll that Taj missed the dunk. It was not as dysfunctional as it was made out to be. Fiz saw a critical turn and yanked him.
Fact is had he let him settle down MAYBE the game goes different. its not like someone stepped up. Spurs still went on a big run with the others.
Given, I give Fiz the benefit of the doubt he saw something that warranted him to yank him. Fiz thru them all out there and they all looked bad but Payton.
If he is going to freak out every game these guys are going to be a mess. Gotta be cool!

Most sensible of the quotes.

I didn't think Frank lacked confidence. He wasn't terrible on the court. His upside play simply didn't translate into statistical pluses due to circumstances beyond his control. No excuses, a net minus but hardly the critical mass for the loss.

One turnover was a brain-fart - he turned but the pass was anticipated. The Spurs should be given credit, they were on a run and that will happen from game to game.

The haters are unforgiving no matter what is said. That's a shame. This team has the potential for great chemistry.

HofstraBBall wrote:

Panos wrote:At least we no longer have debate that we should have picked DSJr instead of Frank in the draft. They both on the roster and both suck. No reason for buyers remorse.

Yep. You said it. Unless you use a more intelligent approach and take um the last two years as pros into account over say 10 minutes of this year and two games after back stiffness. Nah, that would be too logical.

Look, Dennis looks pretty bad. May be his back. May be that he is Fultz like in confidence. May be that he is just not going to be a high level NBA player. Fact is you just cant say what it is in such a short time. Same goes with Frank. Who also looked pretty bad. Think the have showed many more signs of improvement over the summer and they cant be ruled on after just a couple of games. But how is that a silver lining? So we have two young assets and we are forming these type of opinions with 2 and 10 minute into the new year. And we are suppose to be happy about it? Nah. True Knick fans want ANY and ALL players on the roster to do well.

I think both Frank and Dennis have way too much talent to not be able to contribute. Now are they Donavan Mitchell. KP type draft picks. Think it has been proven thus far they are not.

It would be logical to compare the statistics of two point guards playing on similar teams with similar mindsets, no question.

But facts are facts. Frankie was playing on teams that were not only losing but losing unapologetically, unlike the Mavs. DSJ was playing with stable, competent lineups unlike Frankie.

Its also worth noting that the Mavs, for all the DSJ statistical evidence, wanted badly to unload him AND other teams armed with that same statistical evidence and empirical video history wanted nothing to do with trading for him. So there's that.

Frankie not only joined the NBA but made the transition to the US, something DSJ didn't have to do AND Frankie dealt with injury honestly. So there's that too.

It is becoming obvious that DSJ is not suffering from "rust". There are malfunctioning parts at work that nobody wants to admit for obvious reasons. I think the Knicks exercised some magical thinking in resigning him - just my opinion and not based on dislike or hate - I don't think he is physically able to play at the NBA level given his situation.

Frank did not arrive with an NBA body and he's not a bulldog but based on the scouting [who I fully respect] has all of the intangibles to be a great PG [and I'm not talking about his wingspan]. He was a project and remains a worthwhile work-in-progress.

Frankie IS going to be a star is this league likely elsewhere because that's what we do.

Welpee wrote:

fwk00 wrote:Frankie IS going to be a star is this league likely elsewhere because that's what we do.

How do you define "star?" All-NBA? All-defense? All-star? I think Frank can develop into a serviceable asset to a winning team. But a star?

Welpee wrote:

fwk00 wrote:Frankie IS going to be a star is this league likely elsewhere because that's what we do.

How do you define "star?" All-NBA? All-defense? All-star? I think Frank can develop into a serviceable asset to a winning team. But a star?

His offense wil come as he is surrounded by better talent and gets games under his belt. He was injured a good part of last year - critics like Hahn are quick to point out how young and full of potential other players are [so forgive their mistakes] yet ever so harsh on Frank.

If Frankie thrives here it will be by sheer force of will. Nobody is cutting him any slack. I hope he's traded. Best thing for him.

fwk00 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Panos wrote:At least we no longer have debate that we should have picked DSJr instead of Frank in the draft. They both on the roster and both suck. No reason for buyers remorse.

Yep. You said it. Unless you use a more intelligent approach and take um the last two years as pros into account over say 10 minutes of this year and two games after back stiffness. Nah, that would be too logical.

Look, Dennis looks pretty bad. May be his back. May be that he is Fultz like in confidence. May be that he is just not going to be a high level NBA player. Fact is you just cant say what it is in such a short time. Same goes with Frank. Who also looked pretty bad. Think the have showed many more signs of improvement over the summer and they cant be ruled on after just a couple of games. But how is that a silver lining? So we have two young assets and we are forming these type of opinions with 2 and 10 minute into the new year. And we are suppose to be happy about it? Nah. True Knick fans want ANY and ALL players on the roster to do well.

I think both Frank and Dennis have way too much talent to not be able to contribute. Now are they Donavan Mitchell. KP type draft picks. Think it has been proven thus far they are not.

It would be logical to compare the statistics of two point guards playing on similar teams with similar mindsets, no question.

But facts are facts. Frankie was playing on teams that were not only losing but losing unapologetically, unlike the Mavs. DSJ was playing with stable, competent lineups unlike Frankie.

Its also worth noting that the Mavs, for all the DSJ statistical evidence, wanted badly to unload him AND other teams armed with that same statistical evidence and empirical video history wanted nothing to do with trading for him. So there's that.

Frankie not only joined the NBA but made the transition to the US, something DSJ didn't have to do AND Frankie dealt with injury honestly. So there's that too.

It is becoming obvious that DSJ is not suffering from "rust". There are malfunctioning parts at work that nobody wants to admit for obvious reasons. I think the Knicks exercised some magical thinking in resigning him - just my opinion and not based on dislike or hate - I don't think he is physically able to play at the NBA level given his situation.

Frank did not arrive with an NBA body and he's not a bulldog but based on the scouting [who I fully respect] has all of the intangibles to be a great PG [and I'm not talking about his wingspan]. He was a project and remains a worthwhile work-in-progress.

Frankie IS going to be a star is this league likely elsewhere because that's what we do.

Its helps to take the Dennis vs Frank hang up out of the equation so many seem to have. The qhile Phil pick also adds some contention with most.

Facts atre this. Frank is VERY good defensively. Young player. Our draft pick. And has many things he needs to work on before we can say he will be serviceable let alone a STAR.

Dennis is our Young assett. He has had 2 good years where he has shown potential. He is explosive and extremely athletic. He has many things to work on before we say he can be a STAR. What ever reason, so far he looks broken mentally and physically. As a Knick fan I hope they both becomes stars.

In both cases they have ALL season to prove their case and show if they belong in the NBA. I hope they both get ample chance. This whole over reaction the first two of who is amd is not getting minutes seems juvenile. Think there may have been some more minutes both of them ahpuld have been given but its a long season.

MS wrote:I think all you need to know about DSJR is when Luka came in and he was no longer the primary ball handler he had to leave the team for an extended period of time, literally just couldn’t handle it.
The guy has tremendous talent but is a complete liability. You can’t fix dumb on the court unfortunately.

The Knicks have always done a great job of devaluing their assets and selling low.

Trevor Ariza, Zack Randolph, Iman Shumpert, Melo, KP and Frank will follow shortly. There is no such thing as a silver lining right now.

We are going to be bad and worse we are going to be taking minutes away from young guys that need to be developed or showcased for future assets.

In regards to Smith, my point was he is not healthy. Despite his immaturity, he has always been one of the most athletic players in the league. I don’t think he is going to find his rhythm with more court time until his back is right.