HofstraBBall wrote:

Vmart wrote:You never know with the Knicks. They simply don’t appreciate what they have.

Nor do fans.

Was never a fan of Frank as a lotto pick. However, never a fan of giving up on draft picks. So many times teams sacrifice so much to get those picks. And most fans forget about the players traded or the ****ty seasons endured to get those picks. Frank is what I thought he would be. A good role player that can be physically bigger than others at his position. I do feel he has shown improvement with his shot and aggressiveness to the basket. I also know that it takes more than a couple of years for young players to improve. Specially when it comes to improving ones confidence. Which seems to be the thing Frank is missing most. Given he did not play a full year last year this may be the year that he can work on that. If he does, think he has the mechanics to take the next step. Its also about risk and reward for me. What do we have to risk if we keep him. If its about getting a 2nd rounder for him, that's not much in terms of reward. He is also a player than can play multiple positions so if its concern that he will take PG learning minutes from DSJR, think that can be managed.

Did not like the way DSJR played against the Hawks but before the knee jerk reactions kick in, lets keep in mind that it has been said he has dominated the pre season scrimmages and btw has also averaged much better numbers than Frank in most categories his first two years. Also, think he has the most potential of the three to be at an All Star level. All be it with a lot of things to work on.

My biggest thing from a team development side, in terms of which players should stay or go is up to WHAT type of system the Knicks are wanting to develop?? It should always be the first step in accumulating personnel. If your looking for the tough defense, half court set type offensive system than Frank is the best fit. Along with most of the guys the Knicks picked up as FA's. If your looking for the modern speed ball, three point shooting basketball system, then most of these guys don't make sense. It just seems like a professional organization would know the steps to take to build a team. And for me, it all starts with the system and identity they wish to develop. That was my biggest issue with Phil. Why get a guy that is running a system from the 90's and one that most players in the NBA were not accustomed to. Did not seem like the system for a rebuilding franchise who is looking to the future. And we all know how that worked out?

You’re not a fan of Ntlikina because like Perry see him as a Phil pick. Your disdain for Phil makes it a bias which you don’t realize or care to admit. Frank struggles with his shot yes we all know but it can and probably will get better. Regardless of where he was picked the guy you Might have wanted is in the team as well. Regardless he is still the best of the three so he right there beck and neck with the guy they picked after him.

Vmart wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Vmart wrote:You never know with the Knicks. They simply don’t appreciate what they have.

Nor do fans.

Was never a fan of Frank as a lotto pick. However, never a fan of giving up on draft picks. So many times teams sacrifice so much to get those picks. And most fans forget about the players traded or the ****ty seasons endured to get those picks. Frank is what I thought he would be. A good role player that can be physically bigger than others at his position. I do feel he has shown improvement with his shot and aggressiveness to the basket. I also know that it takes more than a couple of years for young players to improve. Specially when it comes to improving ones confidence. Which seems to be the thing Frank is missing most. Given he did not play a full year last year this may be the year that he can work on that. If he does, think he has the mechanics to take the next step. Its also about risk and reward for me. What do we have to risk if we keep him. If its about getting a 2nd rounder for him, that's not much in terms of reward. He is also a player than can play multiple positions so if its concern that he will take PG learning minutes from DSJR, think that can be managed.

Did not like the way DSJR played against the Hawks but before the knee jerk reactions kick in, lets keep in mind that it has been said he has dominated the pre season scrimmages and btw has also averaged much better numbers than Frank in most categories his first two years. Also, think he has the most potential of the three to be at an All Star level. All be it with a lot of things to work on.

My biggest thing from a team development side, in terms of which players should stay or go is up to WHAT type of system the Knicks are wanting to develop?? It should always be the first step in accumulating personnel. If your looking for the tough defense, half court set type offensive system than Frank is the best fit. Along with most of the guys the Knicks picked up as FA's. If your looking for the modern speed ball, three point shooting basketball system, then most of these guys don't make sense. It just seems like a professional organization would know the steps to take to build a team. And for me, it all starts with the system and identity they wish to develop. That was my biggest issue with Phil. Why get a guy that is running a system from the 90's and one that most players in the NBA were not accustomed to. Did not seem like the system for a rebuilding franchise who is looking to the future. And we all know how that worked out?

You’re not a fan of Ntlikina because like Perry see him as a Phil pick. Your disdain for Phil makes it a bias which you don’t realize or care to admit. Frank struggles with his shot yes we all know but it can and probably will get better. Regardless of where he was picked the guy you Might have wanted is in the team as well. Regardless he is still the best of the three so he right there beck and neck with the guy they picked after him.

Sorry but where have I said Frank should be traded? I have said that I want him to stay. I also have pointed out his improvement in many posts. So how has my dislike for Phil made me bias exactly? Could it be that guys that have defended Phil are the bias ones? I mean, Smith has put up decent numbers his first couple of years. Frank? The ones that should be accuaed of blind bias are those that refuse to accept what seems to be apparent. Right now, as mentioned, dont see the reward in trading either player. But if your going to say I dint like Frank just because of Phil, that would ignore the numbers he has put up and the level of play he has produced. There Will be a time when we have to pass on him. And if he has another 2 years of what he has done thus far, only the bias fans will be defending his time with the Knicks.

Vmart wrote:All you have to do is see that KP is gone and he was by far the best thing this organization had since Ewing. Don’t think Perry isn’t agenda driven. He isn’t looking at talent all he is thinking is he isn’t my pick.

I sure hope he is not agenda driven. If he is then we are screwed.

houston20 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

houston20 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

houston20 wrote:

Vmart wrote:You never know with the Knicks. They simply don’t appreciate what they have.

I think perry doesn't trust frank long term and is looking trade frank for anything he can get. We also got to remember this frank option hasn't been picked up and perry said the knicks will make that decision by october 31 meaning either looking to trade him or not pick up frank option.

what does that mean "doesnt trust Frank long term" ???

3 PGs is not a glut, he's 21 and may be able to play other positions. Not picking up his deal would be stupid but again its the Knicks.

DS looked like a robot without oil last night. Dude couldnt move. We have Elf, who's OK but essentially a cast-off on a one year deal. We have DSjr who cant stay on the court but I think most here like his talent level. Who's next? Kadeem Allen?

I like Frank but he has not played well. He's shown flashes, but nothing consistent. That being said he was drafted at 19 and everyone knew it was gonna be a few years. Well its a few years and we are seeing stuff. How much and consistent we'll see

What i mean is frank isn't perry guy and he doesn't want him for the future. Perry is more interested in dsj and payton then frank because the problem with frank is this frank offensive isn't good but defense is great. We got to give dsj more time he was rusty last night and perry more invested developing dsj then frank. Also frank hasn't got a start at the point guard position this preseason dsj and payton have gotten starts that has to tell you something how perry and fisdale view frank.

people say this stuff but it doesnt make sense to me. Perry is in the FO. He's got to evaluate talent, not play favorites.

Mario was a "Perry guy" also. He gone. I mean PG is the spot up for grabs. Perry cant afford to play favorites. His job is to give Fizdale options. Fizdale's job is to get 2/3 of these guys playing good BB.

I think perry has lot of control on the decision making and i also think fizdale agrees with perry on a lot situations. They asked fizdale about frank option the other day and fizdale said that's for scott perry to decide not for fizdale decide. Also look at this way fizdale wanted to draft knox, robinson, rj barret, ignas and sign the free agents that fizdale wanted like trier and payton. Fizdale wants to run a team with lot veteran player and some young guys and fizdale is not interested in developing certain players that are going to take lot of time like frank.

I tend to agree w Houston on this. There is no love for Frank in this FO. FO is hoping for a savior and would love a pg that can cover up Fiz's inability to form a team identity or diagram an effective play

Personally i think when they trade him (and they will) it will rank up there but a notch below KP. Frank has the ability to be impactful in the right context.

In either case Perry is being bold. The issue is whether he's right. If KP succeeds and DSJ doesn't that will be on his tombstone. Same for Frank

HofstraBBall wrote:

Vmart wrote:You never know with the Knicks. They simply don’t appreciate what they have.

Nor do fans.

Was never a fan of Frank as a lotto pick. However, never a fan of giving up on draft picks. So many times teams sacrifice so much to get those picks. And most fans forget about the players traded or the ****ty seasons endured to get those picks. Frank is what I thought he would be. A good role player that can be physically bigger than others at his position. I do feel he has shown improvement with his shot and aggressiveness to the basket. I also know that it takes more than a couple of years for young players to improve. Specially when it comes to improving ones confidence. Which seems to be the thing Frank is missing most. Given he did not play a full year last year this may be the year that he can work on that. If he does, think he has the mechanics to take the next step. Its also about risk and reward for me. What do we have to risk if we keep him. If its about getting a 2nd rounder for him, that's not much in terms of reward. He is also a player than can play multiple positions so if its concern that he will take PG learning minutes from DSJR, think that can be managed.

Did not like the way DSJR played against the Hawks but before the knee jerk reactions kick in, lets keep in mind that it has been said he has dominated the pre season scrimmages and btw has also averaged much better numbers than Frank in most categories his first two years. Also, think he has the most potential of the three to be at an All Star level. All be it with a lot of things to work on.

My biggest thing from a team development side, in terms of which players should stay or go is up to WHAT type of system the Knicks are wanting to develop?? It should always be the first step in accumulating personnel. If your looking for the tough defense, half court set type offensive system than Frank is the best fit. Along with most of the guys the Knicks picked up as FA's. If your looking for the modern speed ball, three point shooting basketball system, then most of these guys don't make sense. It just seems like a professional organization would know the steps to take to build a team. And for me, it all starts with the system and identity they wish to develop. That was my biggest issue with Phil. Why get a guy that is running a system from the 90's and one that most players in the NBA were not accustomed to. Did not seem like the system for a rebuilding franchise who is looking to the future. And we all know how that worked out?

I rarely agree with Hofstra but he's right on this point

But i disgree on the Phil point. Just because Phil's system is out of favor does not mean it's not good. In fact from an economics perspective it could be genius. We are in a salary cap league. SO putting contract shenanigans aside, the name of the game is how do you accumulate more talent for the same money. The way you do that is with value. Everyone is paying top dollar for free agent 3 point shooters etc. A ****ty franchise will need to pay even more to get them to the team. That's a losing proposition value wise. You can make other examples as well

The smart move is to go contrarian and get players (e.g., defense, brains) where their skills are being undercompensated and build a system to those strengths. See,e.g., San Antonio, Toronot even GS to some degree when you consider Draymond and the rest of the team.

Phil certainly made mistakes in execution, but the idea of building an identity that would influence drafting and player development was not one of them. Likewise, the idea of building a system where you could (at least in theory) get value was not one of them.

It's incredibly tough to turn a team into a winner that is in the pits. It's kind of like being Bangladesh -- somehow none of the options work

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Vmart wrote:You never know with the Knicks. They simply don’t appreciate what they have.

Trading frank or dotson would be a sacrifice for what the team is really lacking in, which is perimeter scoring.

If we can get kennard, a sniper who shoots 40% from downtown, then you can play him with barret or payton.

When frank made stops, we couldn't score, didn't push the pace, and turned the ball over twice in the clutch..so just like offensive player can score a bunch of empty stats, franks defensive was kind of wasted because we couldn't capitalize on the other end.

I'd rather keep Dot over kennard. Kennard was unplayable last year due to his poor D. Has that improved. If we trade Frank, I'd rather get picks back.

unfortunately Detroit's cubbard is fairly dry if it's a direct 1-to-1 trade:

INCOMING:

2021 second round draft pick from L.A. Lakers
L.A. Lakers' 2021 2nd round pick to Detroit [Detroit-L.A. Lakers, 2/6/2019]

2023 second round draft pick from Portland
Portland's 2023 2nd round pick to Detroit (via Cleveland) [Cleveland-Portland, 2/4/2019; Cleveland-Detroit, 6/26/2019]

OUTGOING:

2020 second round draft pick to Sacramento
Detroit's 2020 2nd round pick to Sacramento (via Phoenix) [Detroit-Phoenix, 7/9/2015; Phoenix-Sacramento, 6/23/2016]

2021 second round draft pick to L.A. Clippers
Detroit's 2021 2nd round pick to L.A. Clippers (via Philadelphia) [Detroit-Philadelphia, 6/21/2018; L.A. Clippers-Philadelphia, 2/6/2019]

2022 second round draft pick to Memphis, Chicago or Washington
Washington will receive the most favorable of Chicago's 2022 2nd round pick, Detroit's 2022 2nd round pick and the L.A. Lakers' 2022 2nd round pick; Chicago will receive the less favorable of (i) the more favorable of its pick and the Detroit pick and (ii) the L.A. Lakers pick; Memphis will receive the less favorable of the Detroit pick and the Chicago pick (via Chicago's right to swap for Detroit; via Washington's right to swap L.A. Lakers for Chicago or Detroit) [Chicago-Detroit, 2/8/2018; Detroit-Memphis, 2/8/2018; L.A. Lakers-New Orleans-Washington, 7/6/2019; Chicago-Washington, 7/7/2019]

2023 second round draft pick to L.A. Clippers
Detroit's 2023 2nd round pick to L.A. Clippers (via Philadelphia) [Detroit-Philadelphia, 6/21/2018; L.A. Clippers-Philadelphia, 2/6/2019]

Pistons have nothing to offer (neither players nor picks), I hope we don't do a deal with them

Going to be the same Shizz as last year with how Mudiay got time no matter what. Like a personal favor. Just add to that the new vets and DSJr (who I like).

The good news is that we will have a lot of trade chips to playoff teams. In a way, an extremely smart move by the front office, regarding "assembling" this team.

HofstraBBall wrote:

NotInMyHouse wrote:IF we are going by the pre-season, Frank has the #2 PG spot locked up. In a way, he played the best of the 3 but DSJr will get a pass from Phiz cause he is "rusty". Frank needs that shot - I think it is mental. But it will come with time imo.

Going to be the same Shizz as last year with how Mudiay got time no matter what. Like a personal favor. Just add to that the new vets and DSJr (who I like).

The good news is that we will have a lot of trade chips to playoff teams. In a way, an extremely smart move by the front office, regarding "assembling" this team.

Would agree with this. Based on the pre season. Although, think a good coach will also take into account that the Pre Season is tough on point guards as they have to deal with running an offense with an array of different players, line ups and limited minutes. However, all things were equal and Payton seemed to be the most solid and experienced. Frank had the best defensive impact and Dennis seemed real rusty and out of wack.

Think the Knicks will give the whole "Lets win games" thing a shot. Then when they see that they don't have the pieces to do much of it, they go towards giving the young players like Dennis and Frank a real shot at logging in learning minutes. Who knows, maybe I will be pleasantly surprised and Randle, Morris, Taj, Payton and Ellington prove me wrong.

No they will not. There are no miracles in NBA.
A bunch of solid 3rd and 4th options cannot win many games against team which have 1st and 2nd options.
We can scrap 30 wins from other bottom teams and some situational hits on teams with injuries or resting stars.
That's about it. We have no one one the roster who can shoot he ball. This alone will make all our wins a miracle.

Vmart wrote:All you have to do is see that KP is gone and he was by far the best thing this organization had since Ewing. Don’t think Perry isn’t agenda driven. He isn’t looking at talent all he is thinking is he isn’t my pick.

Bull****...

I think everyone is getting their shot. This is all about Frank. I dont see anybody complaining about Allen or some of the other guys... this is all a out Frank. He's taken another step but he's probably a while season away from being an nba player. On a team like Detroit he would shine though because they have established veterans that he can fill the blanks on. The Knicks don't have that.

To Me Frank is a g league player right now... he could go on to be called back up after the new year but he's just not there....

Dsj just needs to get in shape. Elfrid is who he is but should wake up by opening night. Were good at point guard... Barrett and Trier are our 2 guards, period!

Fuck all the dumb ****... Frank is highly expendable. The knicks need help elsewhere.... and truthfully, it's not fair to keep Frank buried on our bench. If you dont like the idea the go become a Detroit fan... you are clearly not a Knicks fan. It should be what's best for the team not any individual player...

Check the sig

Vmart wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

Vmart wrote:All you have to do is see that KP is gone and he was by far the best thing this organization had since Ewing. Don’t think Perry isn’t agenda driven. He isn’t looking at talent all he is thinking is he isn’t my pick.

Bull****...

I think everyone is getting their shot. This is all about Frank. I dont see anybody complaining about Allen or some of the other guys... this is all a out Frank. He's taken another step but he's probably a while season away from being an nba player. On a team like Detroit he would shine though because they have established veterans that he can fill the blanks on. The Knicks don't have that.

To Me Frank is a g league player right now... he could go on to be called back up after the new year but he's just not there....

Dsj just needs to get in shape. Elfrid is who he is but should wake up by opening night. Were good at point guard... Barrett and Trier are our 2 guards, period!

Fuck all the dumb ****... Frank is highly expendable. The knicks need help elsewhere.... and truthfully, it's not fair to keep Frank buried on our bench. If you dont like the idea the go become a Detroit fan... you are clearly not a Knicks fan. It should be what's best for the team not any individual player...

Check the sig

G-league players don’t play World Cup and shut Kenna Walkers of the world down. Once again just another I need him to be a scorer BS post. With you guys you want players who can drop 20 point and let out 25 point and call that a successful player. How that work out with Melo, Marbury if a player doesn’t bring it defensively than it not a successful player for winning.

How you guys underestimate the need for defense amazes me.

Frank is not exiting player. Entertainment value is negative.
Many fans watch bbal to be entertained. Winning is secondary bonus.
Fans want excitement, fans want drama. Knicks 2019-20 are boring...

GustavBahler wrote:

Vmart wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

Vmart wrote:All you have to do is see that KP is gone and he was by far the best thing this organization had since Ewing. Don’t think Perry isn’t agenda driven. He isn’t looking at talent all he is thinking is he isn’t my pick.

Bull****...

I think everyone is getting their shot. This is all about Frank. I dont see anybody complaining about Allen or some of the other guys... this is all a out Frank. He's taken another step but he's probably a while season away from being an nba player. On a team like Detroit he would shine though because they have established veterans that he can fill the blanks on. The Knicks don't have that.

To Me Frank is a g league player right now... he could go on to be called back up after the new year but he's just not there....

Dsj just needs to get in shape. Elfrid is who he is but should wake up by opening night. Were good at point guard... Barrett and Trier are our 2 guards, period!

Fuck all the dumb ****... Frank is highly expendable. The knicks need help elsewhere.... and truthfully, it's not fair to keep Frank buried on our bench. If you dont like the idea the go become a Detroit fan... you are clearly not a Knicks fan. It should be what's best for the team not any individual player...

Check the sig

G-league players don’t play World Cup and shut Kenna Walkers of the world down. Once again just another I need him to be a scorer BS post. With you guys you want players who can drop 20 point and let out 25 point and call that a successful player. How that work out with Melo, Marbury if a player doesn’t bring it defensively than it not a successful player for winning.

How you guys underestimate the need for defense amazes me.

No BS about needing more scoring from a player who has scored relatively little in his career. In a sport, a league, that puts a premium on scoring. This isnt Soccer. Frank has been at the very bottom of the league in that category. If he wasnt, Frank would be in high demand as a rotation player.

Dennis Rodman played mostly D, one of the best in that dept. But he also scooped up rebounds, put backs, tip ins, etc. His game was mostly defense, but he also did the blue collar stuff to put points on the board. Frank needs that kind of mentality on offense. Doesnt have to be a highlight reel type PG. Does have to do more of the little things on offense.

I find the context of "career" being applied to Frankie as humorous. Frankie is, what, 2 years into the NBA a league whose statistical average for point guard development to be FIVE years. In those terms, he's way ahead of the learning curve AND maybe half way though the breaking in period. Calling that a career is a stretch.

And why [from a previous post] is Frankie the 'G' league player? Is this team *too good* for Frankie? Seriously?

Seems to me, he should be playing - starting/not starting doesn't matter.The whole point of this season needs to be learning to win together.

There is this magical thinking going on that DSJ *IS* the immediate gratification scorer who will keep offensive minded fans from wetting their pants if all the PG does is facilitate winning without scoring a boatload of points.

Maybe he is and I understand the FO's reluctance to admit otherwise - but I'm just not seeing it. Nor does DSJ bring the defensive presence almost all of our other guards do.

Its obvious the turkey vultures are swooping in on Fizdale. If I were him, I wouldn't waste a minute trying to prove DSJ was worth trading for - play to win. Period.