jskinny35 wrote:Since it seems like the consensus is there is Zion and 2 very good/impacting players afterwards - what do we do if we land in the 2 or 3 position? Ja seems like the 2nd best talent but we already have Dennis Smith Jr, Frank, maybe Mud... not sure if we would pick him given the roster and possibility of signing a Kyrie or Kemba in free agency. If true, should we stand pat and draft next best player (eg Barret) or try to offer a player and move up? Not sure what it would take to go from 2 or 3 to pick 1. I'd give up Knox, Trier and/or Frank - but think M.Rob should be untouchable at this point.

So what do people think it would take to move up?

And if so, what would people here be willing to give up to move up and draft Zion?

Depends on the Tier breakdown

For example, several drafts ago, the Tier 1 was Wiggins, Parker and Embiid. Any team picking third would grab the guy left the other two did not take. The 4 pick was Julius Randle but could have been any one of 5-6 guys in that slot. Plenty of teams not in the top three would trade to get into the third slot, no one would trade up to get to the 4th slot. This is generally where Tiers drive a hard line.

If Zion and some other player ( we don't quite know yet) comprise Tier 1, then the cost to move from 2 overall to 1 overall is expensive but not punitive. But if the Knicks get the 3rd overall and Tier 1 is two players, then the cost spikes dramatically.

Here's the other problem, the same reason you want to trade up is the same reason a team won't want to trade down. In a Tim Duncan draft, who gives a **** what anyone offers, you aren't giving up Duncan. The fact that a team will be willing to give up the overall top pick is often an indicator of

A) Lack of quality perceived

B) Something ****ing bad in the players character history/situation ( gang affiliation, rapist, drug dealer, history of violence dug up that's not in the press, substance abuse, injury profile, incest, mental health glitches, etc)

There are very quiet but unpleasant rumors right now about Zion. They are not going away. They won't hit the open press. If someone wants to trade Zion, there's a reason and it won't be good, I'll leave it at that.

Given what I've been told about Zion Williamson directly, I'd say if the Knicks get the top pick, draft him and then immediately trade his ass.

A general cost structure would mean this years lottery pick and at LEAST one other future unprotected first round pick. Completely unprotected. Then likely the inbetween year ( Stepien Rule) as a pick flip. The pick flip is more dangerous in some ways than an unprotected pick because of a potential option clause ( i.e. the right to pick flip in X year, or Y year instead) Then a young player ( likely Knox)

Getting the top pick is generally a volume situation and very few teams have the asset base to go volume and still have a team left. Also cost control is going up on a smoothing scale ( problem with Fultz is he carries a 10 million -ish AAV hit right now) the past few seasons so while the salary is covered by the Rookie Scale Exception, it operates as an anchor and possibly a tax anchor if the player does not pan out.

If Zion is available, something is wrong or the cost would be punitive. He's not Tim Duncan. He's not Shaq nor LBJ. For those guys, you consider taking the hit, but not this guy.

I'll say this again. Removing physical factors and skill factors, Zion Williamson is NOT A SAFE PROSPECT.

TripleThreat wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:Since it seems like the consensus is there is Zion and 2 very good/impacting players afterwards - what do we do if we land in the 2 or 3 position? Ja seems like the 2nd best talent but we already have Dennis Smith Jr, Frank, maybe Mud... not sure if we would pick him given the roster and possibility of signing a Kyrie or Kemba in free agency. If true, should we stand pat and draft next best player (eg Barret) or try to offer a player and move up? Not sure what it would take to go from 2 or 3 to pick 1. I'd give up Knox, Trier and/or Frank - but think M.Rob should be untouchable at this point.

So what do people think it would take to move up?

And if so, what would people here be willing to give up to move up and draft Zion?

Depends on the Tier breakdown

For example, several drafts ago, the Tier 1 was Wiggins, Parker and Embiid. Any team picking third would grab the guy left the other two did not take. The 4 pick was Julius Randle but could have been any one of 5-6 guys in that slot. Plenty of teams not in the top three would trade to get into the third slot, no one would trade up to get to the 4th slot. This is generally where Tiers drive a hard line.

If Zion and some other player ( we don't quite know yet) comprise Tier 1, then the cost to move from 2 overall to 1 overall is expensive but not punitive. But if the Knicks get the 3rd overall and Tier 1 is two players, then the cost spikes dramatically.

Here's the other problem, the same reason you want to trade up is the same reason a team won't want to trade down. In a Tim Duncan draft, who gives a **** what anyone offers, you aren't giving up Duncan. The fact that a team will be willing to give up the overall top pick is often an indicator of

A) Lack of quality perceived

B) Something ****ing bad in the players character history/situation ( gang affiliation, rapist, drug dealer, history of violence dug up that's not in the press, substance abuse, injury profile, incest, mental health glitches, etc)

There are very quiet but unpleasant rumors right now about Zion. They are not going away. They won't hit the open press. If someone wants to trade Zion, there's a reason and it won't be good, I'll leave it at that.

Given what I've been told about Zion Williamson directly, I'd say if the Knicks get the top pick, draft him and then immediately trade his ass.

A general cost structure would mean this years lottery pick and at LEAST one other future unprotected first round pick. Completely unprotected. Then likely the inbetween year ( Stepien Rule) as a pick flip. The pick flip is more dangerous in some ways than an unprotected pick because of a potential option clause ( i.e. the right to pick flip in X year, or Y year instead) Then a young player ( likely Knox)

Getting the top pick is generally a volume situation and very few teams have the asset base to go volume and still have a team left. Also cost control is going up on a smoothing scale ( problem with Fultz is he carries a 10 million -ish AAV hit right now) the past few seasons so while the salary is covered by the Rookie Scale Exception, it operates as an anchor and possibly a tax anchor if the player does not pan out.

If Zion is available, something is wrong or the cost would be punitive. He's not Tim Duncan. He's not Shaq nor LBJ. For those guys, you consider taking the hit, but not this guy.

I'll say this again. Removing physical factors and skill factors, Zion Williamson is NOT A SAFE PROSPECT.

Mr inside with tantalizing titillating tidbits to disclose demonstrating discretion to dismay the flock!
We land the pick, we trade Zion but nobody but us would be in on it. Sweet!

TripleThreat wrote:

Moonangie wrote: He will be sculpted for performance by our training staff. Not worried about his weight in ANY way. He's a big guy...so is LBJ. We need Zion.

From a resource management perspective, this is a dangerous way to think.

Much of a players ability to reach his potential ceiling comes from perception of his character, his work ethnic, that "killer instinct", that competitive fire, how he was raised, what he was taught by his father ( if he even had one) , his overall training culture, his values, etc, etc.

One thing in his favor is he'll have access to better PEDS. Even stuff that is cutting edge and not available to many except a very very wealthy/connected few in the entire world

One thing not in his favor is the celebrity lifestyle. The OFFSEASON is often the biggest problem with a player and his weight.

Last thing, treading this one on the line - Alcohol and pro sports have a complicated relationship. It's part of the fan/celebration culture. It's a big business and big ad/sponsor/brand dollars. It's a type of issue much harder to fight in a player than other substance abuse situations.

You don't marry a woman who is fat as the day is long and expect her to lose weight after she gets a ring. Once a landwhale, always a landwhale.

You don't expect a crackhead to stop smoking crack.

You don't expect a guy who says he's gonna give up smoking to actually make it happen.

Rare. Very rare then people truly change. This is why I said to trade Melo during Linsanity. So many people clamored that "Olympic/Dad Melo" was just around the corner. Yeah , OK, good job from those mouth breathers.

What you see is about what you are going to get. Disappointing right?

He’s not fat!

Chandler wrote:

martin wrote:man I gotta remember that ****ing ******* is OK, piece of **** is not OK.

i'm in the same boat. Nuance was lost on me all these years

Back to substance: Zion will definitely have access to first rate trainers etc.

You can't out train what's on your plate. You can't out train what's in a bottle. You can't out train what's going up your nose from a mirror in a rolled up C Note.

Very few people understand what the Nets are doing and doing very well. The players and coaches, their families are often traveling with them. This stabilizes the players behaviors. You can't go clubbing out of town with your wife in two close by. You can't get in a fist fight in a parking lot if you gotta get back to your kids soon. It's also taking the compression out of the dynamic.

You have the same small set of people compressed together in a high stress environment, and traveling a lot together. Little personality quirks you can't avoid if you can go home at night and have the weekend off don't apply here. Imagine, some of you, if you had some coworkers you just didn't vibe with well, but you can manage them in small doses. Now imagine traveling with them. Doing media with them. Doing charity events with them. Living and training in closed off secure spaces with them, day in and day out. Then your wife becomes friends his wife, his kid becomes friends with your kid. His wife has a BDay party, you just want to get some sleep, but you gotta consider creating tension with a guy you see every single day.

This is not just why sports teams have "chemistry" problems, it's the same reason why bands break up or two cops in a car as partners drive each other crazy or spouses who live and work together go nuts.

PEOPLE with weight problems will tend to always have weight problems their entire lives. This is beyond professional sports at some level, this is a people issue as well.

So yes Martin, while I make it point to try to not engage you, since you decided to jump in first, here we go

Briggs.

At some point, when he'd just post random inane things over and over and hard rolled new people, he was just being an *******. But he got to stay. Whatever he was contributing was worth more than what he was taking away.

At some point, you decided he was a piece of **** for what ever he said or did and clipped him.

At some point, his value ( volume posting to create board traffic) wasn't worth whatever tradeoff you decided was in play.

You mock what you've clearly already applied in the open here for everyone to see.

Professional athletes are just people. High profile job/career, but just people. Same people problems. Same people issues. Same people conflicts. Often magnified in some ways, but at it's core, just people struggling to get along with other people like everyone else.

Professional sports has a higher margin of tolerance than most career paths for difficult people, but like anything else, there is a limit.

Many of you are still in the working world. Finance. Medicine. Law. Trades. Government. Probably a wide range. This is no different. You get a guy who really produces, there's a give and take, a push and pull to how much **** he can get away with, but in ANY CULTURE, there's a point where the line gets crossed and it doesn't matter how talented you are or what you produce.

BACK TO SUBSTANCE ( That one, Chandler, was for you and your unfrilled petticoats) - It's not just weight, it's a deeper dive into asking what other issues could be driving that weight. While he's playing way above the rim now, against higher level talent, and against a more brutal schedule length, this all changes. You guys are weighing him out against COLLEGE COMPETITION. Game speed, game flow, pace, nuance, reaction time, recovery time, pressure, expectations, injury, adjustments, mental stress, these are all different animals at a higher level.

My take? Same as before, if the Knicks get the first overall pick ( and likely they will not), I see the best path is taking Zion Williamson if he's the best value on the board then and there, then trading him. Some of you feel different, that's fine. Everyone can disagree here.

Trying to trade for the first overall pick is ripe with problems, which is why in modern NBA history, it's happened so infrequently. Then again, trades into Tier 1 in the lottery are also very rare on it's own.

GoNyGoNyGo wrote:

martin wrote:

Caseloads wrote:

GoNyGoNyGo wrote:Barret may be the better player.

yup

Haven't seen him at all. Why?

IMO,

Zion is a bit of a tweener in th NBA. Yes he is big and athletic but is he a 3 or a 4? Doesn't handle well or shoot 3 point well. Inside game is good but at 6'7 will be going against guys that are 6'11+. Can he defend the 3? Cant see him chasing guys around screens too much. Can he defend the 4? Taller guys will get their shot off on him. I think he will be good but to be that next level, has a lot to work on. Showtime athleticism for sure and he will get his 20/8 likely Also at 275# now, will weight be an issue going forward? Just not sure he is a #1 pick - if weight becomes an issue...less athleticism and lesser skills may mean lower ceiling.

Barret has an NBA game...good handle, good shooter, can take guys off the dribble. Defends well and can be a solid 2 or 3. Same height as Zion but position is clear. Long arms. Also has a bit of the killer instinct in him. Very Smooth..

This is how i feel. People get blown away by the athleticism, but I'm not super impressed with Zion's skill set. RJ and Cam have NBA ready skill sets with heaight and lenght at their positions. Id really prefer either of them to Zion.

knicks1248 wrote:

GoNyGoNyGo wrote:

martin wrote:

Caseloads wrote:

GoNyGoNyGo wrote:Barret may be the better player.

yup

Haven't seen him at all. Why?

IMO,

Zion is a bit of a tweener in th NBA. Yes he is big and athletic but is he a 3 or a 4? Doesn't handle well or shoot 3 point well. Inside game is good but at 6'7 will be going against guys that are 6'11+. Can he defend the 3? Cant see him chasing guys around screens too much. Can he defend the 4? Taller guys will get their shot off on him. I think he will be good but to be that next level, has a lot to work on. Showtime athleticism for sure and he will get his 20/8 likely Also at 275# now, will weight be an issue going forward? Just not sure he is a #1 pick - if weight becomes an issue...less athleticism and lesser skills may mean lower ceiling.

Barret has an NBA game...good handle, good shooter, can take guys off the dribble. Defends well and can be a solid 2 or 3. Same height as Zion but position is clear. Long arms. Also has a bit of the killer instinct in him. Very Smooth..

How many duke games have you watch this season.. This dude can jump out of the GYM at 6 7" 280. I never seen a kid that size with that much athletic ability ,other than labron, and he's 40 pounds heavier..

If the knicks are sure they can get KD, then i would go with Barret or JA

If he gets a jump shot he will be insanely good. At worse you get Blake Griffin. Still not a bad piece on a rookie deal. I didn't like his fit with KP and Knox but with KP gone im on board

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:Wife and I on recent car ride discussing “Phuching *******l vs. PIece of ****”.
We surmised that Trump is too stupid to deliberately be a POS but is a total Fucking Asshole. A Sociopath does not know he is a piece of shyt.
What we were undecided was can someone be a POS but not a “****ig *******”? Does both enhance the level of deplority or can one be only one vs. the other?

Either way, Trump is definitely a mouth breather

Wait a second, is mouth breathing cute, but lisps are not?

And when the hell is Fiz finally going to start Baker at PG?