meloshouldgo wrote:

Welpee wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Burke is too small to play any position in the NBA plus his lack of defense is well documented.

Trey Burke - 6-1, 175 lbs.

Chris Paul, 9x all-defense - 6-0, 175 lbs.
Rajon Rondo, 4x all-defense - 6-1, 186 lbs.
Mike Conley, 1x all-defense - 6-1, 175 lbs.
Patrick Beverley, 2x all-defense - 6-1, 185 lbs.

Fair. None of those players ever had to play positionless basketball. However, if Burke plays defense like Rondo or Paul, you won't have to convince me about keeping him, system be damned.

He's basically be a major outlier statistically if he managed to maintain his Knicks form this season into the future. And if he did, we'd be talking about Trey Burke the perrenial all-star - he'd be where a chunk of our cap space would be going to in 2019.

Players often talk about their rededication to the game and being in the best shape of their careers. In this case, it seems very true. Statistically he's cleaned up the rough spots and has made the good areas even stronger. And, he's pretty much in the best shape of his career, ready to battle and overcome 2 young, even higher former lottery picks.

As pointed out by a number of folks, while he's on the smaller end of the spectrum as a PG, he's bigger or comparable in size to a lot of successful PGs in the league. And as far as the Knicks are concerned, they already have 2 big PG-types in Mudiay and Ntilikina if situations require more size/length.

At this stage, I'd bet on Burke continuing the progress he made in his game last season... except averaging around 30mpg. The Knicks aim to play with a lot of pace (and presumably, many more possessions)... so I fully expect big numbers out of him and for him to emerge as the recipient of the most minutes at PG.

technomaster wrote:Burke was really solid with the Knicks last year, borderline superstar quality. The caveat in that is that he only did it for a short stretch and in relatively limited minutes. Basically, he finished at the rim and made shots at a rate that blew away the next closest season of his career.

He's basically be a major outlier statistically if he managed to maintain his Knicks form this season into the future. And if he did, we'd be talking about Trey Burke the perrenial all-star - he'd be where a chunk of our cap space would be going to in 2019.

What he really needs to do to truly help the Knicks

A) Establish an elite three point shot with consistency. Is it statistically likely he'll do this? No. Is it possible? Yes. Even getting to a league average rate would be very helpful. He's done well with long twos (good for him) and that has value in some type of game environments ( playoff ball honestly) But he needs a three ball in his arsenal

B) Established an elite three point shot with consistency AT PLUS RANGE. This will help the floor spacing, where Kanter will start to muck things up because he can't space the floor.

C) Show he can operate efficiently WITH LIMITED MINUTES AND LIMITED SHOT VOLUME. He can score 42 against a crap defense when his team is gutted and he can call his own number all the time. He's not going to consistently get 30-35 shots a game. This is more critical as he's a defensive sieve. He's going to need to really light up the scoreboard to compensate for the points he's giving up on the other end. But he has to take good shots and he has to do better moving off the ball.

There's nothing wrong with taking a lot of shots. Even in a short amount of time. If it's what the defense is giving within the flow of the offense as a unit and it's showing good shot selection. The opposite of this is just chucking. Burke often shows a chucker mentality. His physical profile is more of an "Attack Guard" in the modern game, but he lacks the speed/explosiveness/first step/athleticism of other true NBA attack guards.

D) Play completely balls to the wall and unapologetically dirty on defense. He'll never be a great defender. He shows a limited BBIQ. He can however push hard all the time, 200 percent, and just be the dirtiest guy on the floor. Put your feet under a jump shooter as he's coming down. When the refs are turned, take a few kidney shots. Try to mentally unravel the other side. Our own beloved LT would hire drug laden hookers to go up to the rooms of opposing offensive players when they were in town to play our Giants. Be nice to be skilled, but ruthless works too sometimes.

Can he do all this? Odds are No, but he's a Knick and I want him to do well. But I just don't honestly see him breaking out like this.

The questions about his game are legitimate. There's a reason he was available in the first place. It's not hate, it's just a raw assessment of his entire body of work in his career and his clear limitations. The Knicks got him for close to nothing for a reason.

TripleThreat wrote:

technomaster wrote:Burke was really solid with the Knicks last year, borderline superstar quality. The caveat in that is that he only did it for a short stretch and in relatively limited minutes. Basically, he finished at the rim and made shots at a rate that blew away the next closest season of his career.

He's basically be a major outlier statistically if he managed to maintain his Knicks form this season into the future. And if he did, we'd be talking about Trey Burke the perrenial all-star - he'd be where a chunk of our cap space would be going to in 2019.

What he really needs to do to truly help the Knicks

A) Establish an elite three point shot with consistency. Is it statistically likely he'll do this? No. Is it possible? Yes. Even getting to a league average rate would be very helpful. He's done well with long twos (good for him) and that has value in some type of game environments ( playoff ball honestly) But he needs a three ball in his arsenal

B) Established an elite three point shot with consistency AT PLUS RANGE. This will help the floor spacing, where Kanter will start to muck things up because he can't space the floor.

C) Show he can operate efficiently WITH LIMITED MINUTES AND LIMITED SHOT VOLUME. He can score 42 against a crap defense when his team is gutted and he can call his own number all the time. He's not going to consistently get 30-35 shots a game. This is more critical as he's a defensive sieve. He's going to need to really light up the scoreboard to compensate for the points he's giving up on the other end. But he has to take good shots and he has to do better moving off the ball.

There's nothing wrong with taking a lot of shots. Even in a short amount of time. If it's what the defense is giving within the flow of the offense as a unit and it's showing good shot selection. The opposite of this is just chucking. Burke often shows a chucker mentality. His physical profile is more of an "Attack Guard" in the modern game, but he lacks the speed/explosiveness/first step/athleticism of other true NBA attack guards.

D) Play completely balls to the wall and unapologetically dirty on defense. He'll never be a great defender. He shows a limited BBIQ. He can however push hard all the time, 200 percent, and just be the dirtiest guy on the floor. Put your feet under a jump shooter as he's coming down. When the refs are turned, take a few kidney shots. Try to mentally unravel the other side. Our own beloved LT would hire drug laden hookers to go up to the rooms of opposing offensive players when they were in town to play our Giants. Be nice to be skilled, but ruthless works too sometimes.

Can he do all this? Odds are No, but he's a Knick and I want him to do well. But I just don't honestly see him breaking out like this.

The questions about his game are legitimate. There's a reason he was available in the first place. It's not hate, it's just a raw assessment of his entire body of work in his career and his clear limitations. The Knicks got him for close to nothing for a reason.

Welpee wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

technomaster wrote:Burke was really solid with the Knicks last year, borderline superstar quality. The caveat in that is that he only did it for a short stretch and in relatively limited minutes. Basically, he finished at the rim and made shots at a rate that blew away the next closest season of his career.

He's basically be a major outlier statistically if he managed to maintain his Knicks form this season into the future. And if he did, we'd be talking about Trey Burke the perrenial all-star - he'd be where a chunk of our cap space would be going to in 2019.

What he really needs to do to truly help the Knicks

A) Establish an elite three point shot with consistency. Is it statistically likely he'll do this? No. Is it possible? Yes. Even getting to a league average rate would be very helpful. He's done well with long twos (good for him) and that has value in some type of game environments ( playoff ball honestly) But he needs a three ball in his arsenal

B) Established an elite three point shot with consistency AT PLUS RANGE. This will help the floor spacing, where Kanter will start to muck things up because he can't space the floor.

C) Show he can operate efficiently WITH LIMITED MINUTES AND LIMITED SHOT VOLUME. He can score 42 against a crap defense when his team is gutted and he can call his own number all the time. He's not going to consistently get 30-35 shots a game. This is more critical as he's a defensive sieve. He's going to need to really light up the scoreboard to compensate for the points he's giving up on the other end. But he has to take good shots and he has to do better moving off the ball.

There's nothing wrong with taking a lot of shots. Even in a short amount of time. If it's what the defense is giving within the flow of the offense as a unit and it's showing good shot selection. The opposite of this is just chucking. Burke often shows a chucker mentality. His physical profile is more of an "Attack Guard" in the modern game, but he lacks the speed/explosiveness/first step/athleticism of other true NBA attack guards.

D) Play completely balls to the wall and unapologetically dirty on defense. He'll never be a great defender. He shows a limited BBIQ. He can however push hard all the time, 200 percent, and just be the dirtiest guy on the floor. Put your feet under a jump shooter as he's coming down. When the refs are turned, take a few kidney shots. Try to mentally unravel the other side. Our own beloved LT would hire drug laden hookers to go up to the rooms of opposing offensive players when they were in town to play our Giants. Be nice to be skilled, but ruthless works too sometimes.

Can he do all this? Odds are No, but he's a Knick and I want him to do well. But I just don't honestly see him breaking out like this.

The questions about his game are legitimate. There's a reason he was available in the first place. It's not hate, it's just a raw assessment of his entire body of work in his career and his clear limitations. The Knicks got him for close to nothing for a reason.

Piece of cake. There are what, maybe 5-10 guys in the entire league who fit this description.

Most other players in the league who are established , not talking elite guys, but guys who are in rotations and stay on rosters, have other skill sets that trade off for their individual flaws.

Tony Allen took quite a bit of time to develop a three point shot. It was never great. Not even when he did his best to get to his personal ceiling. But he could buy some time to develop it in an NBA rotation because he was a very good defender.

Burke is not a good athlete at the NBA level ( this is relative obviously, he'd light up nearly every fringe roster guy in the entire world) He has real limitations. He's not a good decision maker. He's not a high IQ player. He's a **** defender. So his pathway is to develop something that players within the modern game have proven they can develop with time, hard work and pure attrition - a legit three point shot. Given his other trade offs, it needs to be a damn good one.

Your one sentence reply is a throwaway line and it's the mindset of how losing teams think.

No one is asking Burke to be perfect. What people are asking of him is to fill a role effectively. He doesn't score efficiently enough and at volume enough to be a primary scoring option the way he calls his own number as much as he does. He's going to have to adjust if he wants to stay in the NBA. His flaws are the reason HE WAS AVAILABLE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

But he dominated the G League!

That's like a D1 college senior dominating a bunch of high school players. Most G Leaguers are very young and undeveloped physically and raw and many aren't even fringe NBA roster grade type talents.

If he wants to stay on a roster and carve out a real long term role with decent minutes, he needs a strong three ball at plus range. That's it. Full stop. Period. End of story. In the modern space and pace game, it's the only functional role he could realistically carve out and develop over time, if possible.

It's funny, some guys here are talking that they expect Burke to be much better and help the Knicks but don't talk HOW HE CAN SPECIFICALLY HELP THEM AND HIMSELF. I do, and thus I must clearly hate the guy. No one hates the guy. His game is limited and his flaws are clear. Which is why teams passed him up over and over when he was basically free to everyone.

I would also encourage knick fans to see Gleague games in person. There is very little cohesion as roster changes are frequent. These guys are good and some just need the right slot on the right team to get that contract and fill a role. Some are really close to making it but they won’t. I saw Burke play up close in Gleague and he was great, but that “great” is not “NBA” great. He is 26 and knew his spots.
Perhaps he can can have a good career.

Nalod wrote:If the coach says we play positionless ball, and who ever gets the ball goes, why are we hung up on this PG thing all the time? If the smallest guy is not elite shooting the 3 there are problems.
Burke is with a new coach and new system and is being given a chance. That’s it. he might be the best “Pure PG” because of his size and quickness but do we know that’s what we are looking for? In the new era one need not penetrate to break down defense, if you have snipers then its kicked out.

I would also encourage knick fans to see Gleague games in person. There is very little cohesion as roster changes are frequent. These guys are good and some just need the right slot on the right team to get that contract and fill a role. Some are really close to making it but they won’t. I saw Burke play up close in Gleague and he was great, but that “great” is not “NBA” great. He is 26 and knew his spots.
Perhaps he can can have a good career.

Because that type of offense is for pushing the ball. But you cant always push the ball. Sometimes you're forced to play half court offense. Dont see KP, Robinson, Kanter, setting up teammates the way Burke, Frank, Baker can. They're better at driving and dishing.

Cant play true positionless ball until everyone can set up teammates like a PG. In today's NBA you need a player who can either get past defenders, get to the rim and finish, or dish. True positionless basketball to me are players with similar skill sets which make them interchangeable.

When all our backcourt players fit that description, then we will have something closer to positionless basketball.

Right now we only have one player who can attack the rim, and finish, or dish, and that's Burke. Which is why he should play the PG role, until Frank, Mudiay, Baker, Trier etc are better able to do the same.