TripleThreat wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Is there no way to get a mid/late first rounder from somewhere? This guy is a rotation player without any baggage.
We shouldn't look to short sell him. He can definitely add value to a team. If we had to go get a player like him, what would be the odds of landing one without giving up something valuable? As triple threat says lets do that mirror test thingy.

1) Opportunity Cost of the cap space implied

2) Current cap conditions of the league as a whole

Trading a first rounder for Lee would mean losing that cost controlled rookie asset. Then absorbing Lee's contract into their cap, when the non Knicks team could simply spend that 12 million AAV for the next two years in a current marketplace that will shift into a BUYERS MARKET. Lots of money is tied up and teams are cap locked, going to be some good value contract bargains this offseason and next, so 12 million stretches a lot farther.

Would any of you trade a late first rounder ( think like a Chandler Hutchinson type) plus whatever depth can be had for 12 million in free agent money for TWO YEARS for Courtney Lee?

If the Knicks made that kind of deal for Lee, people here would be up in arms. They'd demand someone get fired. So, thus, Mirror Test-ed, why should the non Knicks team do it?

The Knicks have tried to trade Lee pretty much from the time they first signed him. And no one wants him at his current AAV, contract length and hit on opportunity cost implied.

He can't create his own shot. At all. He's in his clear decline phase. He does play solid smart team basketball, but he's at a point, where statistically, you have to expect more missed games/injuries.

Here's the other issue -

NO NON WARRIORS CONTENDER LEVEL TEAM IS GOING INTO THE LUXURY TAX ZONE/OR FURTHER INTO IT/OR FURTHER INTO THE REPEATER TAX ZONE FOR COURTNEY LEE.

The Warriors are deep in the tax zone. Every "contender" level team under them is either in the tax zone or repeater zone or going to enter it.

Would you want the Knicks to go into the repeater tax even further for Courtney Lee?

I don't care how "cash rich" team is in real life, you do have to show some fiscal restraint at some point. If you were a GM of a NBA team, do you think you'd keep your job for long if you had to explain to your owner why you went depth into the luxury tax for Courtney Lee?

The marketplace is going to collapse. Phil Jackson totally f**ked this all up for the Knicks.

Here's a better question, if a team thinks it has a legit shot at a title and Lee could fill an important void on the roster, do you really think a team would pass on him just to save $10M (just a number I pulled out of thin air)? Besides, we would probably need to take on another contract in any transaction (probably fewer years) so I fail to see the financial implications you're claiming.

Welpee wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Is there no way to get a mid/late first rounder from somewhere? This guy is a rotation player without any baggage.
We shouldn't look to short sell him. He can definitely add value to a team. If we had to go get a player like him, what would be the odds of landing one without giving up something valuable? As triple threat says lets do that mirror test thingy.

1) Opportunity Cost of the cap space implied

2) Current cap conditions of the league as a whole

Trading a first rounder for Lee would mean losing that cost controlled rookie asset. Then absorbing Lee's contract into their cap, when the non Knicks team could simply spend that 12 million AAV for the next two years in a current marketplace that will shift into a BUYERS MARKET. Lots of money is tied up and teams are cap locked, going to be some good value contract bargains this offseason and next, so 12 million stretches a lot farther.

Would any of you trade a late first rounder ( think like a Chandler Hutchinson type) plus whatever depth can be had for 12 million in free agent money for TWO YEARS for Courtney Lee?

If the Knicks made that kind of deal for Lee, people here would be up in arms. They'd demand someone get fired. So, thus, Mirror Test-ed, why should the non Knicks team do it?

The Knicks have tried to trade Lee pretty much from the time they first signed him. And no one wants him at his current AAV, contract length and hit on opportunity cost implied.

He can't create his own shot. At all. He's in his clear decline phase. He does play solid smart team basketball, but he's at a point, where statistically, you have to expect more missed games/injuries.

Here's the other issue -

NO NON WARRIORS CONTENDER LEVEL TEAM IS GOING INTO THE LUXURY TAX ZONE/OR FURTHER INTO IT/OR FURTHER INTO THE REPEATER TAX ZONE FOR COURTNEY LEE.

The Warriors are deep in the tax zone. Every "contender" level team under them is either in the tax zone or repeater zone or going to enter it.

Would you want the Knicks to go into the repeater tax even further for Courtney Lee?

I don't care how "cash rich" team is in real life, you do have to show some fiscal restraint at some point. If you were a GM of a NBA team, do you think you'd keep your job for long if you had to explain to your owner why you went depth into the luxury tax for Courtney Lee?

The marketplace is going to collapse. Phil Jackson totally f**ked this all up for the Knicks.

Whoa, you had me until you said he's in "clear decline phase." Lee had probably the best and most productive season of his career. He's 32 so he's certainly not ancient. He only has two years left on his deal. He would absolutely be an asset to a contending team (i.e. Houston replacing Ariza).

Here's a better question, if a team thinks it has a legit shot at a title and Lee could fill an important void on the roster, do you really think a team would pass on him just to save $10M (just a number I pulled out of thin air)? Besides, we would probably need to take on another contract in any transaction (probably fewer years) so I fail to see the financial implications you're claiming.

As is always...numbers have to work out, but he could be a missing piece for some teams. I also know that if the Knicks were in contention right now, we would not be talking about trading him, because he is the kind of player a contending team can always find a place for- as a starter or off the bench.

fishmike wrote:

knickstorrents wrote:All I want is a second rounder and a salary dump for him. Anything else is not realistic. He's a nice player but he's expendable for our team since we're focusing on developing our rookies. This is year 1 of the Knicks Process, get ready for the long haul.

I think that deal is Faried and a #2 for Lee. Knicks just waive Faried. Nuggets get a player that helps them much more than Faried who they have been trying to dump for awhile. Knicks lose Lee on their cap next year. Helps both teams.

TLover wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knickstorrents wrote:All I want is a second rounder and a salary dump for him. Anything else is not realistic. He's a nice player but he's expendable for our team since we're focusing on developing our rookies. This is year 1 of the Knicks Process, get ready for the long haul.

I think that deal is Faried and a #2 for Lee. Knicks just waive Faried. Nuggets get a player that helps them much more than Faried who they have been trying to dump for awhile. Knicks lose Lee on their cap next year. Helps both teams.

Was going to suggest the same deal. Works for both teams. Faried would be that backup PF that the Knicks are looking for. Also straight up for Wilson Chandler would work as well.

Depends on if the Nuggets want the additional salary.

meloshouldgo wrote:Is there no way to get a mid/late first rounder from somewhere? This guy is a rotation player without any baggage.
We shouldn't look to short sell him. He can definitely add value to a team. If we had to go get a player like him, what would be the odds of landing one without giving up something valuable? As triple threat says lets do that mirror test thingy.

excatly

Jmpasq wrote:

reub wrote:I want to trade Lee in a deal that involves Kawhi to the Lakers.

Lakers get: Kawhi, Kanter
Knicks get: Ball, Randall, Deng
Spurs get: Kuzma, Lee, Lance, THJr. and Lakers' #1

LMAO, yeah good chance this deal happens. Why are the Spurs doing this deal? The Knicks get the best young asset while giving up garbage no one wants

Agreed...Spurs are trading a top 3 player in the league and are getting back Courtney Lee, Hardaway and Lance F**** Thomas?! LMAO....Fans always make up these one sided trades that only benefits their team

on the one hand, I like Lee a lot and think he deserves to close out his career on a contender. excellent shooter; smart; pro
on the other hand, he's still a good mentor.

meloshouldgo wrote:

Welpee wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

dwiley20 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Is there no way to get a mid/late first rounder from somewhere? This guy is a rotation player without any baggage.
We shouldn't look to short sell him. He can definitely add value to a team. If we had to go get a player like him, what would be the odds of landing one without giving up something valuable? As triple threat says lets do that mirror test thingy.

excatly

The problem is the sheer number of FA SG's this year- a lot a good defenders and can shoot the 3 and are cheaper:

Signed:

Will Barton (4yrs $52mil re-signed Nuggets)
JJ Redick (1 yr re-signed with Sixers)
Caldwell-Pope (1yr $12mil re-signed with Lakers)
Belinelli (2yr $12mil Spurs)
Joe Harris ( yr $16mil Nets)
Lance Stephenson (1yr $5mil)

Still free:

Avery Bradley
Tyreke Evans
laVine
Seth Curry
Garrett Temple
Wayne Ellington
Marcus Smart

The market's been saturated. Teams over the cap have $8mil MLE, but that will get you a SG that brings roughly what Lee does except cheaper. Some like Avery Bradley are better.

That's a good point, though some of those dudes who are decent 3 pt shooters aren't as good as Lee defensively (i.e. Belinelli, Redick, Curry) or are good defenders but not as good a shooter (i.e. Smart, Bradley).

Lee is a true two way player and you don't have to hide him on the floor. I don't understand why knicks fans don't value this. I think there should be a market of first round picks for Lee. If Houston or Lakers wants to mount a challenge this is the type of guy they should target. Houston just lost Reezy.

TripleThreat wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Lee is a true two way player and you don't have to hide him on the floor. I don't understand why knicks fans don't value this. I think there should be a market of first round picks for Lee. If Houston or Lakers wants to mount a challenge this is the type of guy they should target. Houston just lost Reezy.

What "fans" think is often irrelevant to the actual marketplace.

Lee was signed by an aging crony like Phil Jackson who had no previous front office experience, in a cap environment that took a spike because there was a huge increase but no smoothing option.

A RATIONAL team with an EXPERIENCED front office head would see the bubble was going to pop and a MARKET CORRECTION was soon coming. Lee's actual projectible market value was likely 2/16. On a push, 4/24 with adjustment for AAV for length (And that's a big ass push too).

Most teams right now are over the cap. Meaning the most that most teams have to trade are bad contracts. I keep hearing he can help a contender. OK, what are contenders dumping in salary to get Lee, and do the Knicks want those players? Ryan Anderson? Luol Deng?

NO rational team is going into the tax zone, deeper in the tax zone or deeper into the repeater zone for Courtney Lee. Full stop. End of story. No rebuilding team wants him except to dump their own ****ty contracts. Which the Knicks don't want anyway.

Someone feel free to list the sub contender rosters ( anyone not the Warriors who hope the Warriors suffer two major injuries to have a chance in hell) and point out a feasible trade where Lee moves to them without changing their tax needle or improving it where it's not an outright horse f**k of the Knicks or the non Knicks team.

If he had practical trade value for a POSITIVE ASSET, he'd be gone already. He's still on the roster, what does that say?

I get it, I do. Knicks fans, many, want to support a hard working team player who isn't a typical chucking ******* diva who cares more about a shoe deal or dropping a rap video on Instagram. His AAV and remaining contract are too punitive in the current marketplace.

If anyone thinks Lee is going to net a first rounder ( aside from the Knicks taking a truly horrible contract back), then you are wrong. Not "fans" saying you are wrong, the marketplace is saying you are wrong. Want proof? Knicks have tried to trade him for two years now and he's still on this roster.