knicks1248 wrote:

Nalod wrote:Is part of development not asking players to do more?
and if there is a problem is playing thru it preferred?
Im not a pro coach so I can't say what the problems are. I don't question motivation here either by the coach or the players.
Injury and exhaustion might be more of an issue. If "tired" is it physiologically possible to "Play thru the wall" and adapt?
Is frank's turnovers on "lazy" passes due to "he don't care" or "lethargic" from being tired? Is he trying to install attack instincts but his pass first habit causes him to pause?
Play thru it?
Or....."Trade him", Label him?, lets draft his replacement in February?
He got drafted in June, was still playing, got a bone bruise and missed summer league. Big woo. He seemed to really not picked up his public workouts until late august. Lets assume knicks don't make post season (Ya think?), let the kid take some time to visit his mom, then back at it sometime in may on and off for the next 4-5 months.
My main point is does the coach ask him to do different things? The kid early on was doing well enough. WE all see the same thing regarding confidence and instinct. At 19 he is a work in progress. Does the pro's see enough to project he'll be ok or does our novice eye say otherwise?

When i look at a team like the Heat that has no real super star and a pretty generic roster, but they have an identity, a system, and they play defense every night.

Most teams take on the personality of the coach..the knicks in the 90's played like Pat riley and jvg personality.
When MDA coach a weak knicks roster, he still had them in the top 5 in scoring, just couldn't play defense, and he never preached it.

Jeff is over the 100 game mark as the knicks head coach, we still have no identity as if it was his first day on the job. We're a soft ass team, that doesn't shoot enough 3's, don't run enough, don't defend consistent enough, don't get to the FT line enough, and have several key rotational players that barely shoot

Spo was an assistant under Riley and the culture took many years to install. Phil wanted this with Kerr. Would have been a good extension of himself. Fish failed.
Hornacek was given two rosters in two years to work with. Melo/Rose/Noah/KP core vs KP/Hardaway/Frank/Kanter core.
We don't have the cult of personality in Riles that not only mentored Spo, but also had his back when times were tough. Last year he was COY in my book by taking a team in the post Wade era that started 11-30 and finished 30-11. Riles had his back and put to rest all insinuations there would be a change. They have been disciplined and have been thru a few "tanks" or rebuilds.
When did ours start? With Phil? With Melo's departure? The Triangle Culture? Reboot with him gone and KP now in charge with Perry driving the rebuild?

Kerr/Walton really hve come off the Phil Tree! Both were Phil choices. Walton has full support from Lakers who have a great understanding of Phil. Not the triangle per say, but the way Phil lead. If you don't agree, learn more about Kerr and Waltons coaching. They are not clones of phil, neither is Spo of Riles.
without a Cult leader here, how do you install this? A bit easy to say "Get rid of Jeff!" but who you bringing in? Mark Jax? An ordained minister who commited adultery on his wife, ran a paranoid laden staff environment and is homophobic? Not exactly the guy that you build with. Sean Marks came in to broolyn and only took the job with conditions of how the rebuild was to happen. The process hired Atkinson. Marks was under Pop. In ATL, Budenhowzer (Sp) similar situation.
Lets look at Perry here for a moment. His early influence was in Detroit where Dumars and Larry brown (Pop came from Larry Tree BTW) worked great together. Perry's tenure in Orlando under Hennigan was not good. That GM did a bad job. Perry emerged from that with a good reputation though. I like what I have read about Perry.
You judge a man by Elfred Payton? Melo trade? Or what his plan is from his journey. His pops was a football coach. It runs in the family.
The thing is does Perry head this culture? Our identity is still being molded.
If you rid of Jeff you are giving KP his third coach in his fourth season. We are in a solid youth movement. Losing is expected. You don't change coaches in this time. I think it goes into next year as well. JH is not a bad coach but I agree the Princeton Cunts need their own guy. If jeff is it, then it will take time for it to be apparent. If its Blatt, his euro experience makes sense and maybe its time for him to tie his experiences with management backing. Any coach will want a 5 year deal here. It too will take time. Fans ready for that or they want JH gone in reaction to the current state? They want hope.

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Nalod wrote:Is part of development not asking players to do more?
and if there is a problem is playing thru it preferred?
Im not a pro coach so I can't say what the problems are. I don't question motivation here either by the coach or the players.
Injury and exhaustion might be more of an issue. If "tired" is it physiologically possible to "Play thru the wall" and adapt?
Is frank's turnovers on "lazy" passes due to "he don't care" or "lethargic" from being tired? Is he trying to install attack instincts but his pass first habit causes him to pause?
Play thru it?
Or....."Trade him", Label him?, lets draft his replacement in February?
He got drafted in June, was still playing, got a bone bruise and missed summer league. Big woo. He seemed to really not picked up his public workouts until late august. Lets assume knicks don't make post season (Ya think?), let the kid take some time to visit his mom, then back at it sometime in may on and off for the next 4-5 months.
My main point is does the coach ask him to do different things? The kid early on was doing well enough. WE all see the same thing regarding confidence and instinct. At 19 he is a work in progress. Does the pro's see enough to project he'll be ok or does our novice eye say otherwise?

When i look at a team like the Heat that has no real super star and a pretty generic roster, but they have an identity, a system, and they play defense every night.

Most teams take on the personality of the coach..the knicks in the 90's played like Pat riley and jvg personality.
When MDA coach a weak knicks roster, he still had them in the top 5 in scoring, just couldn't play defense, and he never preached it.

Jeff is over the 100 game mark as the knicks head coach, we still have no identity as if it was his first day on the job. We're a soft ass team, that doesn't shoot enough 3's, don't run enough, don't defend consistent enough, don't get to the FT line enough, and have several key rotational players that barely shoot

why do you want to be like the Heat? They have a great defensive big and an all star guard and have very little path to being anything but a 1 and done playoff team for years to come. what about the Heat says yea.... lets be like them? A veteran roster 4 games over .500 heading to the 8th seed and their best prospect is Justice Winslow. This team isnt soft at all. They just arent very good. Your not able to tell the difference. More of the same from you dude.

why do you always take my point and try to spin it in a negative sense

Where did i say we need to follow in the heats steps, we're talking about coaching, not their future outlook, their cap and draft picks, we are talking about getting a team to play hard and smart no matter the talent. We are talking about building an identity.

Every single player that has joined the heat became a better defender under spo. We have had this coaching discussion many times, and you have always defended the coach(woodson/fisher) that ends up getting fired. Which means your expectations of a coach is a lot lower then what most ppl expect..

They won't fire JH during the season, makes no sense, but i will bet you (2 cases of whatever you drink)he won't be back and he knows it, he doesn't have much support outside of this current season.

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Nalod wrote:Is part of development not asking players to do more?
and if there is a problem is playing thru it preferred?
Im not a pro coach so I can't say what the problems are. I don't question motivation here either by the coach or the players.
Injury and exhaustion might be more of an issue. If "tired" is it physiologically possible to "Play thru the wall" and adapt?
Is frank's turnovers on "lazy" passes due to "he don't care" or "lethargic" from being tired? Is he trying to install attack instincts but his pass first habit causes him to pause?
Play thru it?
Or....."Trade him", Label him?, lets draft his replacement in February?
He got drafted in June, was still playing, got a bone bruise and missed summer league. Big woo. He seemed to really not picked up his public workouts until late august. Lets assume knicks don't make post season (Ya think?), let the kid take some time to visit his mom, then back at it sometime in may on and off for the next 4-5 months.
My main point is does the coach ask him to do different things? The kid early on was doing well enough. WE all see the same thing regarding confidence and instinct. At 19 he is a work in progress. Does the pro's see enough to project he'll be ok or does our novice eye say otherwise?

When i look at a team like the Heat that has no real super star and a pretty generic roster, but they have an identity, a system, and they play defense every night.

Most teams take on the personality of the coach..the knicks in the 90's played like Pat riley and jvg personality.
When MDA coach a weak knicks roster, he still had them in the top 5 in scoring, just couldn't play defense, and he never preached it.

Jeff is over the 100 game mark as the knicks head coach, we still have no identity as if it was his first day on the job. We're a soft ass team, that doesn't shoot enough 3's, don't run enough, don't defend consistent enough, don't get to the FT line enough, and have several key rotational players that barely shoot

why do you want to be like the Heat? They have a great defensive big and an all star guard and have very little path to being anything but a 1 and done playoff team for years to come. what about the Heat says yea.... lets be like them? A veteran roster 4 games over .500 heading to the 8th seed and their best prospect is Justice Winslow. This team isnt soft at all. They just arent very good. Your not able to tell the difference. More of the same from you dude.

why do you always take my point and try to spin it in a negative sense

Where did i say we need to follow in the heats steps, we're talking about coaching, not their future outlook, their cap and draft picks, we are talking about getting a team to play hard and smart no matter the talent. We are talking about building an identity.

Every single player that has joined the heat became a better defender under spo. We have had this coaching discussion many times, and you have always defended the coach(woodson/fisher) that ends up getting fired. Which means your expectations of a coach is a lot lower then what most ppl expect..

They won't fire JH during the season, makes no sense, but i will bet you (2 cases of whatever you drink)he won't be back and he knows it, he doesn't have much support outside of this current season.

This is the problem with tanking. On one side, you have JH coaching for his job next season. And eventhough its better for the team to lose, JH will be graded on his performance. The question is how? It can't be wins and loses anymore.....

To me it's all about player development and getting more with less. The Celtics coach is an example of taking a team and making them better than their individual skill sets. Look at every person on the knicks roster....It's very hard to point out anybody that has developed under JH. Seems like everybody has regressed (except Lee). First we blamed Melo and his iso ball.....Then Phil....Who do we blame now? Or does JH get a pass, until KP is back and healthy. Is JH the right coach for a young roster? They are playing hard and competing well....is that enough to keep him around? At some point we have to stop with the coaching changes, and have some stability......I think Perry and company will give us some new hope. I'm not sure if JH is the right coach, but I don't know who is....

Just thinking out loud......

franco12 wrote:

martin wrote:

Sangfroid wrote:

martin wrote:

TheGame wrote:Tank baby, tank!!! I hope we play 30 more close games where we hustle and then lose.

same

Even with a top 5 pick, I don't see our fortunes changing much for next season or 2019-2020. These guys need a whole lot of soul searching this summer.

Pretty much I agree. Knicks have 2 off seasons of moves to make before the FA summer of 2019, it will set the next 10 years IMHO

why is anyone hoping for some kind of salvation in 2019?

We need to accumulate talent still, and have a ton of question marks on the roster, starting with KP and Frank.

No FA signing is going to change those facts.

I thought we had something we this group. I was wrong.

We're still 3-5 years out.

I am not talking salvation at all. KP should be back at full strength for the 2019-2020 season. Frank will have had 3 seasons under his belt. Knicks will (hopefully) have 2 more high level draft picks. Hopefully LT and Lee will be off cap. Maybe, just maybe, THJr will come out of his shooting slump by then. Maybe Dotson will be for real, maybe no. Maybe Baker will remember what it is like to make a layup and an outside shot.

And maybe the Knicks will have managed their cap at a shot at an UFA, and if not, they have a lot of talent already.

Who is talking salvation?

knicks1248 wrote:Every single player that has joined the heat became a better defender under spo.

Rookie players and players in the first half of their rookie contracts are going to have ups and downs. If you hang a coach on that, I don't know what to say. Even Kawhi Leonard and Jimmy Butler were not the players they are now in their first couple of years, even with established systems and good coaches. Some players adapt faster but that's more on the player and his skill set, not so much the coaching.

Where guys like Spo and Carlisle shine is with guys like Birdman, Joel Anthony, Mario Chalmers, James Johnson, Al Aminu, old Vince Carter, JJ Barea. That Spo made Anthony look somewhat functional for spurts is sort of a miracle. Putting non rookie players in a situation to succeed and shade their weaknesses.

I don't think Hornacek has done such a bad job with Beasley, Lee, KOQ. He didn't turn around McDermott but maybe that's just too short a run. Jack and Sessions were at the end.

It's easy to blame the coach. The problem I see here on Ultimate Knicks and it happened mostly with the Melo threads is that if you can't blame Player X/Coach Y for EVERYTHING, then you must not be able to blame them for ANYTHING AT ALL. Which is chick logic. When the Melo ball lickers come out, they are pushing chick logic.

The answer is probably in the middle. Hornacek is not a top 5 coach in the league. He could be doing some things better. On the flip side, this team has been hurt, gutted and low on talent to start. You can't give a gourmet chef a bunch of hot dogs and expect him to turn out filet mignon.

What a lot of guys are not seeing is other teams do have better coaches. But most have better talent as well.

How many starters on the Knicks would be starters on every other team in the league?
How many players on the Knicks roster right now would not make the actual game day roster of every other NBA team?
How many players on other teams 2nd and 3rd units would be instant starters on this Knicks team?
How many players on the Knicks WOULD NOT EVEN BE IN THE NBA RIGHT NOW if they were not on the Knicks ( i.e. this is their last desperate grab at playing in the NBA) ?

It's easy to just blame the coach for EVERYTHING is you see some way to win with this roster. The problem in part might be coaching, but the larger issue is you see a team that can win some way with this roster. It cannot. This is not negativity. It's not cynicism. It's just the reality of the talent/injury situation.

Hornacek might not know how to coach a team. You don't know how to actually build a team.

knicks1248 wrote:

Nalod wrote:Is part of development not asking players to do more?
and if there is a problem is playing thru it preferred?
Im not a pro coach so I can't say what the problems are. I don't question motivation here either by the coach or the players.
Injury and exhaustion might be more of an issue. If "tired" is it physiologically possible to "Play thru the wall" and adapt?
Is frank's turnovers on "lazy" passes due to "he don't care" or "lethargic" from being tired? Is he trying to install attack instincts but his pass first habit causes him to pause?
Play thru it?
Or....."Trade him", Label him?, lets draft his replacement in February?
He got drafted in June, was still playing, got a bone bruise and missed summer league. Big woo. He seemed to really not picked up his public workouts until late august. Lets assume knicks don't make post season (Ya think?), let the kid take some time to visit his mom, then back at it sometime in may on and off for the next 4-5 months.
My main point is does the coach ask him to do different things? The kid early on was doing well enough. WE all see the same thing regarding confidence and instinct. At 19 he is a work in progress. Does the pro's see enough to project he'll be ok or does our novice eye say otherwise?

When i look at a team like the Heat that has no real super star and a pretty generic roster, but they have an identity, a system, and they play defense every night.

Most teams take on the personality of the coach..the knicks in the 90's played like Pat riley and jvg personality.
When MDA coach a weak knicks roster, he still had them in the top 5 in scoring, just couldn't play defense, and he never preached it.

Jeff is over the 100 game mark as the knicks head coach, we still have no identity as if it was his first day on the job. We're a soft ass team, that doesn't shoot enough 3's, don't run enough, don't defend consistent enough, don't get to the FT line enough, and have several key rotational players that barely shoot

knicks1248 wrote:I wonder what JH and his coaching staff said in the locker room at the half to get his team to blow at 23 point lead in 8 and 1/2 minutes in the 3rd qtr..at home against a team missing one of its best players..

I told ya'll we will be lucky to win 5 more games this season

Really, "I TOLD YA'LL"? What a tool you are. You are actually gloating!

knicks1248 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I wonder what JH and his coaching staff said in the locker room at the half to get his team to blow at 23 point lead in 8 and 1/2 minutes in the 3rd qtr..at home against a team missing one of its best players..

I told ya'll we will be lucky to win 5 more games this season

Really, "I TOLD YA'LL"? What a tool you are. You are actually gloating!

Im a fckng knick fan, how the h'ell could i be gloating about blowing a 27 point lead, im sick and tired of the fck boy coaches we hire, and the fck boy players we have..and people like you in a complete state of denial thinking everything is sweet, and were on track..

What the hell do you have to see before you understand there's no direction, how many losing season you have to sit through before you say THIS IS SOME BULL SHT..

We are all fans. You’ll sit like the rest of us until they get it right.
Nobody is in denial except your perception of self importance.
We all see what’s going on. We all suffer the disappointment. Your no better than anyone else.

knicks1248 wrote:When some of you suggested to bring him back since were not expected to be much next yr either, that would be horrible . Their is a serious lack of respect for JH, and when i saw it months ago that the team had given up on him.

I didn't even realize that Burk had waived off JH's play last night on the last play, didn't realize Hardaway was pissed at JH for a ridiculous time out.

I wouldn't be surprise if they told noah to chill out till next season, he'll be gone by april 20th.

You can't bring him back into that locker room, it's a wrap for him

Noah doesn't like JH. Noah came to the Knicks and was out of shape. Then got suspended for PEDS. Now he wants a full buyout to go play with Thibs in Minnesota. Deng is using the same BS tactics in LA to try to get bought out. JH is not playing Noah. Well, when you are injured, suspended and out of shape, maybe that's going to happen.

KOQ wants massive playing time to get the fattest contract he can this offseason. Except he always makes boneheaded plays on the court. I mean truly boneheaded plays. So he gets pulled from the lineup. You want more minutes? Stop making the same mental mistakes that punish the team over and over, every night.

Zinger? Blew off his exit interview.

Burke? Was available for a reason. Needed his career to red line to actually do things like give max effort and work on his game.

JH might actually be a bad coach and a jerk. But let's not pretend this crew of players are all saints here.

Bringing in Mark Jackson ( constant drama) or Doc Rivers ( constant drama, plus an idiot, plus horrible in the press, plus a massive ego) doesn't sound like a plan for long term success.