Our starting lineup is Jack, THJ, Lee, KP, and Kanter... our perimeter is two SG and a guy collecting social security. Come on

BigRedDog wrote:REAL plus-minus http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm

Guess who is 2nd in the league for players playing over 30min per game? Our old friend Melo.
I bet he wasnt that good last yr on the Knicks. Just shows how its not a meaningful stat.

SupremeCommander wrote:Is it Kanter's effect on the team or is it the players that Kanter is surrounded by? This is one of the inherent flaws to +/- and it is not intended to be a one size fits all statistic

Our starting lineup is Jack, THJ, Lee, KP, and Kanter... our perimeter is two SG and a guy collecting social security. Come on

VDesai wrote:Knicks have been closing out the 4th with different lineups, but that's been where they have been best. I think if Kanter played more with Frank instead of Jack it could be different.

Why do we give up so many 3 pointers the first 3 quarters?

I believe Jack is a big part of the problem. You look at his poor rotation when Korver was making some of his 3’s and in other games I see he’s not capable of rotating as aggressively as we need. Dude is no spring chicken so it’s understandable.

jrodmc wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

nyknickspodcast wrote:

Nalod wrote:After the "New Oak" shine wears off and all is said and done, we progress into larger samples and the analytics start to evolve and tell a story.
Our storyline needs to bring Noah on the court and see what he can bring. It will determine his value if any trade is to materialize.
The free agency money is tight this summer and Enes might not find big long term money waiting for him.
I only saw the 4th qtr last night, he was not on the court.

Who is Noah taking minutes from though? Kanter and KOQ are playing well and don't deserve to lose minutes to a guy who has been washed up for 3 years.

Here are some analytics--if we played Enes more against Clev and Detroit wed be 10-4. Enes provides ez baskets. Some games we wont match up 4-5 because we go to big--but thats up to JH to find the solution--perhaps using KP on the stretch 4.

Did you read this off your last piece of toilet paper? What exactly was Enes going to do against Kyle "Reggie" Korver? Do the inbounds faster after the mofo hit his 10th 3 in the 4th quarter? We are the 8th worst team in the league at defending the 3. Effing Utah hit damn near 50% from 3 last night...

He couldn't have checked Frye at the end of the Cavs game? Frye was on the court at the end for them.. Just get out there and at 6'11" with a long enough reach, put a hand in Channing's face and contest his 3 or whoever you get switched onto (if it happened to be Frye, that guy ain't doing much else out there besides spotting up), then drift immediately toward the hoop to help on the boards. AND THEN ON THE OTHER END, get the ball and completely BEAST down low on whoever the Cavs decided to throw at him (this is where I want them to start going to him more -- make him a focal point in this offense!! And if they decided to use LeBron on him, great, then that would've freed up KP who 'Bron totally took out of the game with his defense). My point -- understand what you have with this dude, Jeff. I think he's something special. Lets start accentuating this man's strengths. He's averaging just under 10 shots a game -- now clearly, just looking at him and how skilled he is, this is not Tyson Chandler who's at the top of the league a few years back with shooting % on dunks alone -- this is an ULTRA SKILLED big man who needs the ball more. Ty Chandler was never a go-to guy offensively. THIS GUY IS!! Or could be... But now last night, he only gets 7 shots.. See, I'm flummoxed by that to be perfectly honest.. When Utah had Karl Malone all those years, did he only get 10 shots a game? I know that's a little bit of a stretch comparing Kanter to the Mailman but seriously, just on talent alone, is Kanter that much behind the Mailman? I don't think so. Difference -- the Mailman was utilized to the fullest, while Kanter's being underutilized.. To me, Kanter really hasn't broken out yet and I think he's fully capable. Why can't he start breaking out here in NY? I know what I see and what I'd do with him but ultimately it's up to Jeff. And Jeff played with Malone too--you would think he'd have an inkling here.

Look, obviously there's some worth in examining these advanced stats, I personally don't put much stock in them however. I look at the basic stats Kanter's putting up (in only 25 mins. per, he's putting up 14 & 10.5 on almost 65% from the floor, 87% FTs, 77% career FTs -- I dunno fellas, to me that's IMPRESSIVE) and then I look at fit, feel and what this player is capable of doing with even more PT and more touches. He actually did get 15 shots up that game--I feel he had it rolling and should've gotten 20+ shots that night, ESPECIALLY at the end where NO ONE was playing well or stepping up for us. Kanter wasn't on the floor during that Cavs collapse at the end. I think he could've helped if he was. Wasn't like he sat and we suddenly got our **** together and pulled out the W -- we completely fell apart at the end with Kanter on the pine.

simrud wrote:IMO pairing him with KP is the problem - he needs to be paired with a fast 4 who can cover ground and (1) make up for his slowness on the defense (2) be a great defensive rebounder ala Rolo.

This all comes down to starting KP next a mobile athletic big who can switch and rebound and doing the same for Kanter.

I dunno Sim -- do you guys really see a guy who's that slow afoot? I don't -- I see a guy who gets up the court in a hurry (this is where we miss a real run and gun PG that can get it up quickly to fully utilize Kanter running the court -- we don't have that) and then I also see a guy in the half court who rotates fairly well, plays physical, closes off space and puts his hands up. He's just not a shot-blocker, but everything else he does fairly well I think. Look, I get it--he's not a great defensively player but what I'm saying -- whatever shortcomings he has defensively is not nearly enough to play him only 25 mins and sit him at critical junctures of a game. Just MHO. I want to accentuate this man's positives -- if we do that, he's an all-star in the eastern conference. No question in my mind.

And I think he's a rather good fit next to KP -- KP provides shot-blocking and perimeter scoring where Kanter provides good interior scoring and plus rebounding. Plus he's a guy that has shown now that he will back his teammates at the drop of a hat and he likes KP a lot, you can tell. They have good chemistry. I dunno -- to me, they're a very good pairing..

Ask yourselves this -- I know this may be another reach for some -- everyone loved Oakley, right? I know I did.. What if Ewing had Kanter next to him all those years instead of Oakley? Would we have won a chip? Could we have beaten Houston in '94?

Bonn1997 wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:Is it Kanter's effect on the team or is it the players that Kanter is surrounded by? This is one of the inherent flaws to +/- and it is not intended to be a one size fits all statistic

Our starting lineup is Jack, THJ, Lee, KP, and Kanter... our perimeter is two SG and a guy collecting social security. Come on

No stat should be one size fits all. But your comments don't explain why Kanter's +/- is worse than the guards you're mentioning or why KP (who plays with them) has a great +/-. It's not a onse-size fits all stat but that doesn't mean it's something to ignore.

I don't disagree but we all know you aren't a Kanter fan. I just think you are searching for stats to prove what you already believe. So why comment? Briggs posted something the other week that he was top 25 in PER. I he great? Utter crap? From what I've seen he's somewhere in the middle, and I think he's been a net-positive.

Finestrg wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

nyknickspodcast wrote:

Nalod wrote:After the "New Oak" shine wears off and all is said and done, we progress into larger samples and the analytics start to evolve and tell a story.
Our storyline needs to bring Noah on the court and see what he can bring. It will determine his value if any trade is to materialize.
The free agency money is tight this summer and Enes might not find big long term money waiting for him.
I only saw the 4th qtr last night, he was not on the court.

Who is Noah taking minutes from though? Kanter and KOQ are playing well and don't deserve to lose minutes to a guy who has been washed up for 3 years.

Here are some analytics--if we played Enes more against Clev and Detroit wed be 10-4. Enes provides ez baskets. Some games we wont match up 4-5 because we go to big--but thats up to JH to find the solution--perhaps using KP on the stretch 4.

Did you read this off your last piece of toilet paper? What exactly was Enes going to do against Kyle "Reggie" Korver? Do the inbounds faster after the mofo hit his 10th 3 in the 4th quarter? We are the 8th worst team in the league at defending the 3. Effing Utah hit damn near 50% from 3 last night...

He couldn't have checked Frye at the end of the Cavs game? Frye was on the court at the end for them.. Just get out there and at 6'11" with a long enough reach, put a hand in Channing's face and contest his 3 or whoever you get switched onto (if it happened to be Frye, that guy ain't doing much else out there besides spotting up), then drift immediately toward the hoop to help on the boards. AND THEN ON THE OTHER END, get the ball and completely BEAST down low on whoever the Cavs decided to throw at him (this is where I want them to start going to him more -- make him a focal point in this offense!! And if they decided to use LeBron on him, great, then that would've freed up KP who 'Bron totally took out of the game with his defense). My point -- understand what you have with this dude, Jeff. I think he's something special. Lets start accentuating this man's strengths. He's averaging just under 10 shots a game -- now clearly, just looking at him and how skilled he is, this is not Tyson Chandler who's at the top of the league a few years back with shooting % on dunks alone -- this is an ULTRA SKILLED big man who needs the ball more. Ty Chandler was never a go-to guy offensively. THIS GUY IS!! Or could be... But now last night, he only gets 7 shots.. See, I'm flummoxed by that to be perfectly honest.. When Utah had Karl Malone all those years, did he only get 10 shots a game? I know that's a little bit of a stretch comparing Kanter to the Mailman but seriously, just on talent alone, is Kanter that much behind the Mailman? I don't think so. Difference -- the Mailman was utilized to the fullest, while Kanter's being underutilized.. To me, Kanter really hasn't broken out yet and I think he's fully capable. Why can't he start breaking out here in NY? I know what I see and what I'd do with him but ultimately it's up to Jeff. And Jeff played with Malone too--you would think he'd have an inkling here.

Look, obviously there's some worth in examining these advanced stats, I personally don't put much stock in them however. I look at the basic stats Kanter's putting up (in only 25 mins. per, he's putting up 14 & 10.5 on almost 65% from the floor, 87% FTs, 77% career FTs -- I dunno fellas, to me that's IMPRESSIVE) and then I look at fit, feel and what this player is capable of doing with even more PT and more touches. He actually did get 15 shots up that game--I feel he had it rolling and should've gotten 20+ shots that night, ESPECIALLY at the end where NO ONE was playing well or stepping up for us. Kanter wasn't on the floor during that Cavs collapse at the end. I think he could've helped if he was. Wasn't like he sat and we suddenly got our **** together and pulled out the W -- we completely fell apart at the end with Kanter on the pine.

Kanter does some things very well - No doubt. I haven't made my mind up about him. One thing though: Most people don't think of +/_ as an advanced stat. It's actually simpler to calculate (just subtraction) than the stats you're giving (FG%, FT%). And the idea of looking at how the team does when players are/aren't playing is as old as the game.

Bonn1997 wrote:I like the guy. I like his offensive moves and rebounding. But it's hard to ignore his -12.4 on/off differential (the worst among our regular players). It's the 2nd to last column here: http://www.82games.com/1718/1718NYK.HTM

What is your take on this? I figure you could have any of these reactions:
-14 games is too small a sample. It's random fluctuation.
-It's just because he's playing a lot with Lee, who also has a bad +/-. Still Kanter's is a little worse.
-His poor defense is hurting the team. Probably true but our offensive rating is a little worse with him on the court too.
-He doesn't pair well with KP.
-On/off +/- is a silly, pointless stat.

I hope the Knicks are at least aware of this and trying to figure it out.

simrud wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I like the guy. I like his offensive moves and rebounding. But it's hard to ignore his -12.4 on/off differential (the worst among our regular players). It's the 2nd to last column here: http://www.82games.com/1718/1718NYK.HTM

What is your take on this? I figure you could have any of these reactions:
-14 games is too small a sample. It's random fluctuation.
-It's just because he's playing a lot with Lee, who also has a bad +/-. Still Kanter's is a little worse.
-His poor defense is hurting the team. Probably true but our offensive rating is a little worse with him on the court too.
-He doesn't pair well with KP.
-On/off +/- is a silly, pointless stat.

I hope the Knicks are at least aware of this and trying to figure it out.

Look at the plus minuses on Kanter's top 5, 5 man units. His net negative is the phantom impact of Beasley/Sessions being on the floor. On the other hand KP almost never plays with Beasley
I think it's pretty obvious that Kanter is not the issue - it's the Beas and/or Sessions

Actually you have a great point here.

Here are the 5 units that played any kind of significant minutes so far (more than like 5 total)

Unit Min +/-
 Sessions-Lee-HardawayJr.-Porzingis-Kanter 46   -17
 Jack-Lee-HardawayJr.-Beasley-Kanter 14   -13
 Jack-HardawayJr.-McDermott-Porzingis-Kanter 10   -14

Note that Kanter is a + in all other 5 man units.

Most of the - is coming from Sessions -17 over 46 minutes. The other 2 distant - units have him playing with Beas at the 4 and McDermott at 3 and Jack at 1. So we are talking about units with 2 other ****ty defenders.

Nice break down. Would like to see Kanter’s impact with Ntilikina on the floor.

Vmart wrote:

simrud wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I like the guy. I like his offensive moves and rebounding. But it's hard to ignore his -12.4 on/off differential (the worst among our regular players). It's the 2nd to last column here: http://www.82games.com/1718/1718NYK.HTM

What is your take on this? I figure you could have any of these reactions:
-14 games is too small a sample. It's random fluctuation.
-It's just because he's playing a lot with Lee, who also has a bad +/-. Still Kanter's is a little worse.
-His poor defense is hurting the team. Probably true but our offensive rating is a little worse with him on the court too.
-He doesn't pair well with KP.
-On/off +/- is a silly, pointless stat.

I hope the Knicks are at least aware of this and trying to figure it out.

Look at the plus minuses on Kanter's top 5, 5 man units. His net negative is the phantom impact of Beasley/Sessions being on the floor. On the other hand KP almost never plays with Beasley
I think it's pretty obvious that Kanter is not the issue - it's the Beas and/or Sessions

Actually you have a great point here.

Here are the 5 units that played any kind of significant minutes so far (more than like 5 total)

Unit Min +/-
 Sessions-Lee-HardawayJr.-Porzingis-Kanter 46   -17
 Jack-Lee-HardawayJr.-Beasley-Kanter 14   -13
 Jack-HardawayJr.-McDermott-Porzingis-Kanter 10   -14

Note that Kanter is a + in all other 5 man units.

Most of the - is coming from Sessions -17 over 46 minutes. The other 2 distant - units have him playing with Beas at the 4 and McDermott at 3 and Jack at 1. So we are talking about units with 2 other ****ty defenders.

Nice break down. Would like to see Kanter’s impact with Ntilikina on the floor.

Here you go:

Unit Min +/-
 Ntilikina-HardawayJr.-Thomas-Porzingis-Kanter 8   14  
 Ntilikina-Lee-Thomas-McDermott-Kanter 5   -8  
 Ntilikina-Lee-HardawayJr.-Beasley-Kanter 5   -3  
 Ntilikina-Lee-McDermott-Beasley-Kanter 5   0  
 Ntilikina-HardawayJr.-McDermott-Porzingis-Kanter 3   -8  
 Ntilikina-Lee-HardawayJr.-Porzingis-Kanter 3   -2  
 Ntilikina-Thomas-McDermott-Porzingis-Kanter 3   13  
 Ntilikina-HardawayJr.-Thomas-McDermott-Kanter 2   2  

Notice that all (but one) units that are - have Beas or MacDermott in them.