nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:Its a great country we leave in that allows this kind of protest to take place and people who are protesting are safe and sound.
In most places of the world the consequences will be severe...
I hope that things that dividing us will never change our country to return back to what most of the world still is.

It wasn't that long ago when peaceful protest wasn't being allowed in this country. The lack of violent methods to suppress dissent doesn't mean they're not finding other methods of crushing protests.

Remember that AA's have been pushing this country to actually LIVE UP to its highest ideals. AA's have been pushing to try and make the Country live up to its Constitution. The History of protest has helped to remove Hypocrisy.

Many people from all ways of live build this country as it is together.
The mutual respect is a result of it for absolute majority.
This what makes us strong.
Many things are far away from perfect.
So we all have a lot of work to do... but together we will make it even better place.

The problem is that not enough people feel "we all have a lot of work to do"!!! A very significant amount of people are just fine with how things are and have been in the past. We didn't get here by accident.

Change could be much faster and the only reason it's never been fast is the resistance from those who don't want things to change. As I've pointed out the Federal Government had to use the military in order to enact change for the better. We had to fight a Civil War due to resistance to change.

Why do you think Policing is STILL having problems in how they deal with minorities? SOME people don't think anything needs to be changed!!! What other reason could there be after all this time?

Faster change called revolution. It kills everyone involved.
We need slow evolution. It kills no one.
Military is only for external use, unless you have some junta in power (nazi, religious fanatics, or comunjaks same thing).
We need everyone obey to the law and constitution whatever it is.
And we need to clean up the law from outdated ghosts of the past and preserve it from harsh revisions to the name of short term trends.
Baby steps and patience. Same as with the rebuilding Knicks.

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:Its a great country we leave in that allows this kind of protest to take place and people who are protesting are safe and sound.
In most places of the world the consequences will be severe...
I hope that things that dividing us will never change our country to return back to what most of the world still is.

It wasn't that long ago when peaceful protest wasn't being allowed in this country. The lack of violent methods to suppress dissent doesn't mean they're not finding other methods of crushing protests.

Remember that AA's have been pushing this country to actually LIVE UP to its highest ideals. AA's have been pushing to try and make the Country live up to its Constitution. The History of protest has helped to remove Hypocrisy.

Many people from all ways of live build this country as it is together.
The mutual respect is a result of it for absolute majority.
This what makes us strong.
Many things are far away from perfect.
So we all have a lot of work to do... but together we will make it even better place.

The problem is that not enough people feel "we all have a lot of work to do"!!! A very significant amount of people are just fine with how things are and have been in the past. We didn't get here by accident.

Change could be much faster and the only reason it's never been fast is the resistance from those who don't want things to change. As I've pointed out the Federal Government had to use the military in order to enact change for the better. We had to fight a Civil War due to resistance to change.

Why do you think Policing is STILL having problems in how they deal with minorities? SOME people don't think anything needs to be changed!!! What other reason could there be after all this time?

Faster change called revolution. It kills everyone involved.
We need slow evolution. It kills no one.
Military is only for external use, unless you have some junta in power (nazi, religious fanatics, or comunjaks same thing).
We need everyone obey to the law and constitution whatever it is.
And we need to clean up the law from outdated ghosts of the past and preserve it from harsh revisions to the name of short term trends.
Baby steps and patience. Same as with the rebuilding Knicks.

Easy for you to preach patience when you're Rights are not on the line. AA's have been waiting for 400 years. Do you think my Grandparents or Parents have a right to be frustrated by how long it's taking? How about me my children and grandchildren who are susceptible to the inequities of this system? See it impacts us DIRECTLY.

TPercy wrote:Cops are far more likely to be killed by black men than for black men to be killed by cops

TPercy wrote:No disrespect taken. You guys refuted my points well but I guess what I am trying to say now is that I think we need more data. I find all these videos on social media to be very useless because it is very easy to sway someone emotionally with anecdotes. Seriously, even if we added up all the videos of police shootings and even brutality for that matter, you still wouldn't have enough to taint 900,000 officers(or thereabouts) as systematically racist or even forceful for that matter.

nixluva wrote:

Chandler wrote:Nixluva on this and a number of other topics, you're a forceful voice and should be commended.

I wish there were a weapon (taser?) or technique to mitigate this, and I wish people didn't run too (though that's not to excuse anything)

I also wish that inner city schools, and schools in poor communities, weren't so relatively neglected (this actually troubles me the most for some reason)

I totally understand the "why" they kneel; it's the when and where which I wish there was a different choice. Sit-ins for example were in the right context -- at the scene of the crime if you will. Taking a knee during the anthem is dicey. It can be interpreted as an attempt to steal the spotlight when people are trying to pay respect to fallen heroes, etc. I wish I had a better answer than that.

This exactly why it's done during the Anthem. In this country NOTHING ever changed for the better until activists pushed the issues in the face of the general public. Civil Rights Activitists in the 40's thru the 60's were never popular in their time. Public opinion was very similar when Sit Ins were being done or Marches. They persisted and in time CHANGE was achieved.

The problem is that this country never truly dealt with its history on Race! There was a very brief period of hope during Reconstruction but that came to an end in 1877 and all hell broke loose on the AA Community and that's led to the poor state of relations we see now.

After the Civil Rights victories of the 60's came another backlash similar to 1877. Republicans used the Southern Strategy and AA's became the pawn in politics. Republicans could use fear of AA's as a wedge to win votes. They're STILL using it cuz it works and always has.

I agree with everything you say about the Knicks, makes sense that you're spot the **** on about other topics too. Good stuff.

Been sharing this a lot lately due to its incredible relevance.

“I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.”

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Bonn1997 wrote:

TPercy wrote:No disrespect taken. You guys refuted my points well but I guess what I am trying to say now is that I think we need more data. I find all these videos on social media to be very useless because it is very easy to sway someone emotionally with anecdotes. Seriously, even if we added up all the videos of police shootings and even brutality for that matter, you still wouldn't have enough to taint 900,000 officers(or thereabouts) as systematically racist or even forceful for that matter.

A scientist shouldn't say anecdotes are useless. They can captivate audiences who can then be shown data. They're often a useful starting point. I don't think the purpose of this was to taint 900,000 officers. Can one write about the seriousness of medical errors (3rd leading cause of death in the US now) without tainting the 1 million physicians in the US? If you can tolerate this world's unavoidable nuances (doctors save many lives but there still is serious room for improvement in their practices), then I don't see why not.

Sorry I didn't make myself clear, I meant that anecdotes by themselves are useless. Anecdotes should and must be brought up as much as possible but people shouldn't derive their opinions solely off of anecdotes. It's kind of like how we analyze basketball. Me and you never just base our opinions off the the eye test alone. We look at the data to see if it corroborated why we are saying and then make our opinions

nixluva wrote:

TPercy wrote:

nixluva wrote:

TPercy wrote:No disrespect taken. You guys refuted my points well but I guess what I am trying to say now is that I think we need more data. I find all these videos on social media to be very useless because it is very easy to sway someone emotionally with anecdotes. Seriously, even if we added up all the videos of police shootings and even brutality for that matter, you still wouldn't have enough to taint 900,000 officers(or thereabouts) as systematically racist or even forceful for that matter.

I don't think anyone is suggesting All or even Most police are bad or Racist. The problem is that there is a problem with how Police are trained and often many policies that create the circumstances for abuse and unfortunately killings.

IF you live in a community or City that has historically over policed and been over aggressive in tactics that's a systemic problem.

Investigators have found abuse in Police Departments
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6787804

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/12/05/us/justice-dept-inquiry-finds-abuses-by-cleveland-police.html?referer=https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVyFJEdlZyZsAuBtx.9w4;_ylu=X3oDMTByOHZyb21tBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1507426761/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.nytimes.com%2f2014%2f12%2f05%2fus%2fjustice-dept-inquiry-finds-abuses-by-cleveland-police.html/RK=1/RS=XAd9T8Btr2RKBbSlaX9OwyYU38c-

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/08/09/489372162/justice-department-to-issue-critical-report-on-baltimore-police-department

Nix I agree with you on this but I believe that this is an issue that must be tackled on the state level. All states are inherently different and as such how they execute their police powers are going to be different as well. There is no single national curriculum for police training; instead, the training requirements and protocol is different. The cops in Baltimore and Cleveland as you cited have problems with their use of force, that doesn't mean that same problem is the same in other states, which kind of ties into part of issues with protesting police brutality on a national level because it assumes that this is a problem that must be tackled centrally instead of encouraging states and in particular cities to gather data and find a way of tackling it from there.

Well I think perhaps you may be misunderstanding the purpose of the National movement. Best practices are best practices and teaching proper engagement with citizens will be generally applicable no matter where you are. Of course you can't have a Boilerplate solution that fits all the various Cities and Towns but the problem is that FAR TOO MANY Police Departments fail entirely to even recognize they have a problem.

We're talking about GROSS abuse across multiple cities over decades. Until the protests pretty much forced the DOJ to go in and investigate NO ONE was looking to change or improve anything. In fact these Police Departments denied there was even a problem.

You are proposing that cities should all adopt a uniform practice and I don't think that is a reasonable goal because as I stated previously different states have different issues, not to mention whst you are asking for would be unconstitutional if I interpreted what you said correctly.

What multiple cities are we talking about here? Was there a city by city study done across the nation that I'm unaware of? Not to mention I'm fairly certain the investigation into the Baltimore PD happened before Kap started protesting

Bonn1997 wrote:

TPercy wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

TPercy wrote:No disrespect taken. You guys refuted my points well but I guess what I am trying to say now is that I think we need more data. I find all these videos on social media to be very useless because it is very easy to sway someone emotionally with anecdotes. Seriously, even if we added up all the videos of police shootings and even brutality for that matter, you still wouldn't have enough to taint 900,000 officers(or thereabouts) as systematically racist or even forceful for that matter.

A scientist shouldn't say anecdotes are useless. They can captivate audiences who can then be shown data. They're often a useful starting point. I don't think the purpose of this was to taint 900,000 officers. Can one write about the seriousness of medical errors (3rd leading cause of death in the US now) without tainting the 1 million physicians in the US? If you can tolerate this world's unavoidable nuances (doctors save many lives but there still is serious room for improvement in their practices), then I don't see why not.

Sorry I didn't make myself clear, I meant that anecdotes by themselves are useless. Anecdotes should and must be brought up as much as possible but people shouldn't derive their opinions solely off of anecdotes. It's kind of like how we analyze basketball. Me and you never just base our opinions off the the eye test alone. We look at the data to see if it corroborated why we are saying and then make our opinions

OK, I would agree with this.

Its not just the number of Africans Americans being shot by police. Its also the how, its also the why. Its also when these things aren't justified there has been no accountablitlity. If rogue cops made poor decisions yet were held accountable for their actions that would limit the outrage. Then there is the excuses and finger pointing. For example 900,000 other officers should be tainted due to the actions of the bad apples. But yet African Americans get an enormous amount of generalizations due to the actions of few in order to justify that stance.

And policd brutality is just one layer. Its also the unjust justice system. There is so much evidence available to justify the outrage. To not understand is to either not care to know or care about the result.

TPercy wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

TPercy wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

TPercy wrote:No disrespect taken. You guys refuted my points well but I guess what I am trying to say now is that I think we need more data. I find all these videos on social media to be very useless because it is very easy to sway someone emotionally with anecdotes. Seriously, even if we added up all the videos of police shootings and even brutality for that matter, you still wouldn't have enough to taint 900,000 officers(or thereabouts) as systematically racist or even forceful for that matter.

A scientist shouldn't say anecdotes are useless. They can captivate audiences who can then be shown data. They're often a useful starting point. I don't think the purpose of this was to taint 900,000 officers. Can one write about the seriousness of medical errors (3rd leading cause of death in the US now) without tainting the 1 million physicians in the US? If you can tolerate this world's unavoidable nuances (doctors save many lives but there still is serious room for improvement in their practices), then I don't see why not.

Sorry I didn't make myself clear, I meant that anecdotes by themselves are useless. Anecdotes should and must be brought up as much as possible but people shouldn't derive their opinions solely off of anecdotes. It's kind of like how we analyze basketball. Me and you never just base our opinions off the the eye test alone. We look at the data to see if it corroborated why we are saying and then make our opinions

OK, I would agree with this.

Its not just the number of Africans Americans being shot by police. Its also the how, its also the why. Its also when these things aren't justified there has been no accountablitlity. If rogue cops made poor decisions yet were held accountable for their actions that would limit the outrage. Then there is the excuses and finger pointing. For example 900,000 other officers should be tainted due to the actions of the bad apples. But yet African Americans get an enormous amount of generalizations due to the actions of few in order to justify that stance.

And policd brutality is just one layer. Its also the unjust justice system. There is so much evidence available to justify the outrage. To not understand is to either not care to know or care about the result.

How do you know for a fact that bad caps are routinely not being held accountable for their actions?

I just posted articles showing the DOJ found many Police Departments guilty of abuse so there's AMPLE PROOF that cops have been getting away with abuse. If you simply do a Google Search you would find all the info you need.