Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:Frank was NOT a stretch.

Someone agrees with you, almost word for word.

"Though Ntilikina was hardly a reach..."

You know who that was?

Kevin Pelton.

He must have given the Knicks a good grade then yea?

You're in a huff partly because you think Pelton suggested Ntilikina was a stretch at 8. You remembered wrong, or misunderstood.

Not true at all. My knock on Pelton's comment was he regurgitated the "triangle pick" comment and followed it with an F grade. I think I was pretty clear about that. I think you just misunderstood.

Are you some kind of opinion moderator? Feel free to take a stance and add to the discussion. Would you like to comment on the article? Do you think the grade listed here is unfair? Tell me your thoughts on the article and the author's take and grades.

You are way to focused on my every word. Maybe a little less SPLAT and a little more Knicks? Join in. The water is warm.

It's often hard to have a discussion about the Knicks through the stupid noise about media bias and other irrelevant distractions.

But to answer your questions, I think Pelton didn't like the Knicks offseason, with passing on Smith for Ntilikina just one part of his evaluation. Best as i can tell, his track record has some merit.

The fact of the matter is I don't know if his grade is fair (because defining fair is a fool's errand) but mostly because I don't care if his grade his fair.

I'm a fan, I admittedly try to see the positive in the moves my favorite team makes. I'm admittedly optimistic that improvements have been made and will result in better results. I think that this year.

But at the same time I know and appreciate I've been consistently wrong when it comes to the Knicks. I can't hit the reset button every season and think I'm being more objective and everyone else is bias. I've lost that right.

So at the end of the day, I think the Knicks had a okay off season so far and can and will be better. I also can understand why others might see things differently and history suggests they might be more right than me.

I also have no problem with prognosticators predicting more failure from a franchise that succeeds in producing drama but no wins. Knicks deserve the poor opinion most have of them. Its earned. Saying the Knicks will win 32 games because of x,y and z is not "anti." Thats the point... x,y and z were offered. Pelton didnt offer x,y or z.

The ESPN grade was written by Chad Ford. Didnt they fire him right after? Maybe he blasted the Knicks for no reason he would be writing in Pelton's space

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:This is what I mean.... actual "reporting" actual information being used and displayed.

This is what I mean on Frank:

A quiet, pass-first European who had never played in the U.S., he had "Phil Jackson" and "triangle offense" written all over him. Don't hold that against him.
Was it heartening and delightful that the Knicks' No. 8 draft pick hurt his knee on the first day of practice and had to skip Summer League? No. However, when the groins and ankles of Lonzo Ball, Markelle Fultz, De'Aaron Fox and Malik Monk all staged their own revolts, Knicks fans might have taken some solace in the fact that other teams' top guards missed some summer playing time, too.
Unfortunately, many fans took little comfort in that Thursday night, when Dennis Smith Jr.—who was still available to the Knicks at No. 8—put forth an exhilarating Las Vegas Summer League performance that nearly caused thousands of people to have catastrophic heart failure.
One Smith dunk is being cheered as one of the best plays of summer league—and he didn't even make the shot. However, Knicks fans spitting vitriol at Ntilikina before seeing him play are not only being unfair, but foolish. He was not merely the available point guard prospect best-suited for the triangle offense; he was by far the best defensive point guard, one of the finest defenders at any position and a strong playmaker.
A team that simply could not stop opponents from shooting (and had a non-existent fast-break game) is desperate for guards who can smother three-ballers, provide help and yank down defensive rebounds.

As opposed to "Smith looks great. Knicks are dumb. Grade F"

Agree that you cant judge a guy by a "Missed Dunk" But Smith "looking great" does hint to his talent and that he may have been a very good pick. My argument, against Frank, has been that the pick was purely a "Triangle" pick. Which we now see made no sense. Don't believe Frank was the best player available. Specially considering Knicks just paid $18M for a player, they may have been able to pick up in the draft, that would have similar attributes.

and my retort to that is it makes zero sense. I always ask the same thing... what are those attributes? You dont have to agree Frank was the best player on the board. Nobody knows that now. Frank was NOT a stretch. He was regarded as the highest ceiling defender and was coveted by the team right behind us as well.

Summer league is not an indication of future performance. If it was the Knicks would have had a foundation bigman and Majec Lampe and Kris Dunn would not have struggled as he did his rookie season.

Everyone that says "Frank was a triangle pick" then vanishes after I ask what about Frank doesnt translate into say running the P&R? Please explain this to me.

Wait, you post an article ,and in it, the author says that he was most likely a "Triangle pick" but you question people that say the same? Perhaps you should ask B/R? Or perhaps you can explain why you think he can excel at the NBA level running the pick and roll? Don't tell me that the French league has a precedent for projecting NBA success? And just saying he is long and plays hard defense can be said about another 20 guys that were picked after Frank. It cant be your sole analysis on why you think he will be good. Just like a missed dunk cant. I hope your kidding about Frank being wanted by the Mavericks. Don't know if you saw the video of their camp when Frank was picked by the Knicks. Reminded me of New Years eve celebration. As for Dunn, you have used that before, leaving out he had an injury.

But again, we will have lots to talk about in the coming seasons. I believe Frank is another Jerian Grant and that Smith will be an excellent player(Much better than Frank)

You said YOU thought Frank was a triangle pick. I asked why or what that means. I still havent heard.

I dont have a sole analysis on why I think Frank will be good. I have lots of reasons. Just like I had lots for DSJ and Monk. If there was a sole factor that pushed the KNicks to take him then yes.. it was defense. Knicks have sucked at defense for a decade plus. DSJ projects to have a very low defensive impact. Frank projects very high. Frank played championship basketball vs. grown professional men. DSJ played sub .500 ball vs. college kids.

Or perhaps you can explain why you think he can excel at the NBA level running the pick and roll?Well he's done it in EU vs. a much higher level of competition than DSJ did... so I do have that. Dont take my word for it. There is plenty of video out there. He looks great doing it.

He was a Tringle pick. Here is the proof that will shut the case. Who was he picked by? What system does he place the most importance on?He was a Triangle pick because Phil likes big guards that can defend. He does not value their ability to create. He does not care if they are super athletic (Smith}. Does not care if they are offensive juggernauts(Smith) Wants them to be pass first guards that can set up the Triangle and defend on the other side. Problem is, the Triangle type guards are not winning Chips. The Triangle type guards are not difference makers. The Triangle guards are not guys you pick after tanking a season. A Triangle guy is not a possible franchise player. Maybe in the 80's. Not in todays NBA.

Defense pushed the pick? Really? So then why not trade down and get 2 defensive players. Sorry but an 8 pick is for a possible franchise player. Not a good defensive stopper that can be had later in the draft or free agency.

Funny how you are arguing with me but I am was agreeing, with most, of the article you started the thread with. No worries.

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:This is what I mean.... actual "reporting" actual information being used and displayed.

This is what I mean on Frank:

A quiet, pass-first European who had never played in the U.S., he had "Phil Jackson" and "triangle offense" written all over him. Don't hold that against him.
Was it heartening and delightful that the Knicks' No. 8 draft pick hurt his knee on the first day of practice and had to skip Summer League? No. However, when the groins and ankles of Lonzo Ball, Markelle Fultz, De'Aaron Fox and Malik Monk all staged their own revolts, Knicks fans might have taken some solace in the fact that other teams' top guards missed some summer playing time, too.
Unfortunately, many fans took little comfort in that Thursday night, when Dennis Smith Jr.—who was still available to the Knicks at No. 8—put forth an exhilarating Las Vegas Summer League performance that nearly caused thousands of people to have catastrophic heart failure.
One Smith dunk is being cheered as one of the best plays of summer league—and he didn't even make the shot. However, Knicks fans spitting vitriol at Ntilikina before seeing him play are not only being unfair, but foolish. He was not merely the available point guard prospect best-suited for the triangle offense; he was by far the best defensive point guard, one of the finest defenders at any position and a strong playmaker.
A team that simply could not stop opponents from shooting (and had a non-existent fast-break game) is desperate for guards who can smother three-ballers, provide help and yank down defensive rebounds.

As opposed to "Smith looks great. Knicks are dumb. Grade F"

Agree that you cant judge a guy by a "Missed Dunk" But Smith "looking great" does hint to his talent and that he may have been a very good pick. My argument, against Frank, has been that the pick was purely a "Triangle" pick. Which we now see made no sense. Don't believe Frank was the best player available. Specially considering Knicks just paid $18M for a player, they may have been able to pick up in the draft, that would have similar attributes.

and my retort to that is it makes zero sense. I always ask the same thing... what are those attributes? You dont have to agree Frank was the best player on the board. Nobody knows that now. Frank was NOT a stretch. He was regarded as the highest ceiling defender and was coveted by the team right behind us as well.

Summer league is not an indication of future performance. If it was the Knicks would have had a foundation bigman and Majec Lampe and Kris Dunn would not have struggled as he did his rookie season.

Everyone that says "Frank was a triangle pick" then vanishes after I ask what about Frank doesnt translate into say running the P&R? Please explain this to me.

Wait, you post an article ,and in it, the author says that he was most likely a "Triangle pick" but you question people that say the same? Perhaps you should ask B/R? Or perhaps you can explain why you think he can excel at the NBA level running the pick and roll? Don't tell me that the French league has a precedent for projecting NBA success? And just saying he is long and plays hard defense can be said about another 20 guys that were picked after Frank. It cant be your sole analysis on why you think he will be good. Just like a missed dunk cant. I hope your kidding about Frank being wanted by the Mavericks. Don't know if you saw the video of their camp when Frank was picked by the Knicks. Reminded me of New Years eve celebration. As for Dunn, you have used that before, leaving out he had an injury.

But again, we will have lots to talk about in the coming seasons. I believe Frank is another Jerian Grant and that Smith will be an excellent player(Much better than Frank)

You said YOU thought Frank was a triangle pick. I asked why or what that means. I still havent heard.

I dont have a sole analysis on why I think Frank will be good. I have lots of reasons. Just like I had lots for DSJ and Monk. If there was a sole factor that pushed the KNicks to take him then yes.. it was defense. Knicks have sucked at defense for a decade plus. DSJ projects to have a very low defensive impact. Frank projects very high. Frank played championship basketball vs. grown professional men. DSJ played sub .500 ball vs. college kids.

Or perhaps you can explain why you think he can excel at the NBA level running the pick and roll?Well he's done it in EU vs. a much higher level of competition than DSJ did... so I do have that. Dont take my word for it. There is plenty of video out there. He looks great doing it.

He was a Tringle pick. Here is the proof that will shut the case. Who was he picked by? What system does he place the most importance on?He was a Triangle pick because Phil likes big guards that can defend. He does not value their ability to create. He does not care if they are super athletic (Smith}. Does not care if they are offensive juggernauts(Smith) Wants them to be pass first guards. Problem is, the Triangle type guards are not winning Chips. The Triangle type guards are not difference makers. The Triangle guards are not guys you pick after tanking a season. A Triangle guy is not a possible franchise player. Maybe in the 80's. Not in todays NBA.

Defense pushed the pick? Really? So then why not trade down and get 2 defensive players. Sorry but an 8 pick is for a possible franchise player. Not a good defensive stopper that can be had later in the draft or free agency.

Funny how you are arguing with me but I am was agreeing, with most, of the article you started the thread with. No worries.

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:This is what I mean.... actual "reporting" actual information being used and displayed.

This is what I mean on Frank:

A quiet, pass-first European who had never played in the U.S., he had "Phil Jackson" and "triangle offense" written all over him. Don't hold that against him.
Was it heartening and delightful that the Knicks' No. 8 draft pick hurt his knee on the first day of practice and had to skip Summer League? No. However, when the groins and ankles of Lonzo Ball, Markelle Fultz, De'Aaron Fox and Malik Monk all staged their own revolts, Knicks fans might have taken some solace in the fact that other teams' top guards missed some summer playing time, too.
Unfortunately, many fans took little comfort in that Thursday night, when Dennis Smith Jr.—who was still available to the Knicks at No. 8—put forth an exhilarating Las Vegas Summer League performance that nearly caused thousands of people to have catastrophic heart failure.
One Smith dunk is being cheered as one of the best plays of summer league—and he didn't even make the shot. However, Knicks fans spitting vitriol at Ntilikina before seeing him play are not only being unfair, but foolish. He was not merely the available point guard prospect best-suited for the triangle offense; he was by far the best defensive point guard, one of the finest defenders at any position and a strong playmaker.
A team that simply could not stop opponents from shooting (and had a non-existent fast-break game) is desperate for guards who can smother three-ballers, provide help and yank down defensive rebounds.

As opposed to "Smith looks great. Knicks are dumb. Grade F"

Agree that you cant judge a guy by a "Missed Dunk" But Smith "looking great" does hint to his talent and that he may have been a very good pick. My argument, against Frank, has been that the pick was purely a "Triangle" pick. Which we now see made no sense. Don't believe Frank was the best player available. Specially considering Knicks just paid $18M for a player, they may have been able to pick up in the draft, that would have similar attributes.

and my retort to that is it makes zero sense. I always ask the same thing... what are those attributes? You dont have to agree Frank was the best player on the board. Nobody knows that now. Frank was NOT a stretch. He was regarded as the highest ceiling defender and was coveted by the team right behind us as well.

Summer league is not an indication of future performance. If it was the Knicks would have had a foundation bigman and Majec Lampe and Kris Dunn would not have struggled as he did his rookie season.

Everyone that says "Frank was a triangle pick" then vanishes after I ask what about Frank doesnt translate into say running the P&R? Please explain this to me.

Wait, you post an article ,and in it, the author says that he was most likely a "Triangle pick" but you question people that say the same? Perhaps you should ask B/R? Or perhaps you can explain why you think he can excel at the NBA level running the pick and roll? Don't tell me that the French league has a precedent for projecting NBA success? And just saying he is long and plays hard defense can be said about another 20 guys that were picked after Frank. It cant be your sole analysis on why you think he will be good. Just like a missed dunk cant. I hope your kidding about Frank being wanted by the Mavericks. Don't know if you saw the video of their camp when Frank was picked by the Knicks. Reminded me of New Years eve celebration. As for Dunn, you have used that before, leaving out he had an injury.

But again, we will have lots to talk about in the coming seasons. I believe Frank is another Jerian Grant and that Smith will be an excellent player(Much better than Frank)

You said YOU thought Frank was a triangle pick. I asked why or what that means. I still havent heard.

I dont have a sole analysis on why I think Frank will be good. I have lots of reasons. Just like I had lots for DSJ and Monk. If there was a sole factor that pushed the KNicks to take him then yes.. it was defense. Knicks have sucked at defense for a decade plus. DSJ projects to have a very low defensive impact. Frank projects very high. Frank played championship basketball vs. grown professional men. DSJ played sub .500 ball vs. college kids.

Or perhaps you can explain why you think he can excel at the NBA level running the pick and roll?Well he's done it in EU vs. a much higher level of competition than DSJ did... so I do have that. Dont take my word for it. There is plenty of video out there. He looks great doing it.

He was a Tringle pick. Here is the proof that will shut the case. Who was he picked by? What system does he place the most importance on?He was a Triangle pick because Phil likes big guards that can defend. He does not value their ability to create. He does not care if they are super athletic (Smith}. Does not care if they are offensive juggernauts(Smith) Wants them to be pass first guards that can set up the Triangle and defend on the other side. Problem is, the Triangle type guards are not winning Chips. The Triangle type guards are not difference makers. The Triangle guards are not guys you pick after tanking a season. A Triangle guy is not a possible franchise player. Maybe in the 80's. Not in todays NBA.

Defense pushed the pick? Really? So then why not trade down and get 2 defensive players. Sorry but an 8 pick is for a possible franchise player. Not a good defensive stopper that can be had later in the draft or free agency.

Funny how you are arguing with me but I am was agreeing, with most, of the article you started the thread with. No worries.

Also if you think Frank is not a good offensive player you have not researched him well. If you think Frank was picked only to defend with no regard for his offensive game you really know nothing about Frank Ntilikina.

You bold statement is flat out silly. Why not just trade down for good defensive players? Look around the league at what players are being paid who are defensive players. Evan Turner, Bazemore, Demar Carrol, Shumpert... there are many others. Why are teams giving these guys $10, $15 and $20mm contracts when they should just be targeting late first rounders for cheap?

What has Dennis Smith done that Jimmer Freddette hasnt? Nothing. You speak of DSJ as if he's a flawless sure thing. He is very very far from that.

Knickoftime wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:This is what I mean.... actual "reporting" actual information being used and displayed.

This is what I mean on Frank:

A quiet, pass-first European who had never played in the U.S., he had "Phil Jackson" and "triangle offense" written all over him. Don't hold that against him.
Was it heartening and delightful that the Knicks' No. 8 draft pick hurt his knee on the first day of practice and had to skip Summer League? No. However, when the groins and ankles of Lonzo Ball, Markelle Fultz, De'Aaron Fox and Malik Monk all staged their own revolts, Knicks fans might have taken some solace in the fact that other teams' top guards missed some summer playing time, too.
Unfortunately, many fans took little comfort in that Thursday night, when Dennis Smith Jr.—who was still available to the Knicks at No. 8—put forth an exhilarating Las Vegas Summer League performance that nearly caused thousands of people to have catastrophic heart failure.
One Smith dunk is being cheered as one of the best plays of summer league—and he didn't even make the shot. However, Knicks fans spitting vitriol at Ntilikina before seeing him play are not only being unfair, but foolish. He was not merely the available point guard prospect best-suited for the triangle offense; he was by far the best defensive point guard, one of the finest defenders at any position and a strong playmaker.
A team that simply could not stop opponents from shooting (and had a non-existent fast-break game) is desperate for guards who can smother three-ballers, provide help and yank down defensive rebounds.

As opposed to "Smith looks great. Knicks are dumb. Grade F"

Agree that you cant judge a guy by a "Missed Dunk" But Smith "looking great" does hint to his talent and that he may have been a very good pick. My argument, against Frank, has been that the pick was purely a "Triangle" pick. Which we now see made no sense. Don't believe Frank was the best player available. Specially considering Knicks just paid $18M for a player, they may have been able to pick up in the draft, that would have similar attributes.

and my retort to that is it makes zero sense. I always ask the same thing... what are those attributes? You dont have to agree Frank was the best player on the board. Nobody knows that now. Frank was NOT a stretch. He was regarded as the highest ceiling defender and was coveted by the team right behind us as well.

Summer league is not an indication of future performance. If it was the Knicks would have had a foundation bigman and Majec Lampe and Kris Dunn would not have struggled as he did his rookie season.

Everyone that says "Frank was a triangle pick" then vanishes after I ask what about Frank doesnt translate into say running the P&R? Please explain this to me.

Wait, you post an article ,and in it, the author says that he was most likely a "Triangle pick" but you question people that say the same? Perhaps you should ask B/R? Or perhaps you can explain why you think he can excel at the NBA level running the pick and roll? Don't tell me that the French league has a precedent for projecting NBA success? And just saying he is long and plays hard defense can be said about another 20 guys that were picked after Frank. It cant be your sole analysis on why you think he will be good. Just like a missed dunk cant. I hope your kidding about Frank being wanted by the Mavericks. Don't know if you saw the video of their camp when Frank was picked by the Knicks. Reminded me of New Years eve celebration. As for Dunn, you have used that before, leaving out he had an injury.

But again, we will have lots to talk about in the coming seasons. I believe Frank is another Jerian Grant and that Smith will be an excellent player(Much better than Frank)

You said YOU thought Frank was a triangle pick. I asked why or what that means. I still havent heard.

I dont have a sole analysis on why I think Frank will be good. I have lots of reasons. Just like I had lots for DSJ and Monk. If there was a sole factor that pushed the KNicks to take him then yes.. it was defense. Knicks have sucked at defense for a decade plus. DSJ projects to have a very low defensive impact. Frank projects very high. Frank played championship basketball vs. grown professional men. DSJ played sub .500 ball vs. college kids.

Or perhaps you can explain why you think he can excel at the NBA level running the pick and roll?Well he's done it in EU vs. a much higher level of competition than DSJ did... so I do have that. Dont take my word for it. There is plenty of video out there. He looks great doing it.

He was a Tringle pick. Here is the proof that will shut the case. Who was he picked by? What system does he place the most importance on?He was a Triangle pick because Phil likes big guards that can defend. He does not value their ability to create. He does not care if they are super athletic (Smith}. Does not care if they are offensive juggernauts(Smith) Wants them to be pass first guards. Problem is, the Triangle type guards are not winning Chips. The Triangle type guards are not difference makers. The Triangle guards are not guys you pick after tanking a season. A Triangle guy is not a possible franchise player. Maybe in the 80's. Not in todays NBA.

Defense pushed the pick? Really? So then why not trade down and get 2 defensive players. Sorry but an 8 pick is for a possible franchise player. Not a good defensive stopper that can be had later in the draft or free agency.

Can't say I understand why defense is considered such a secondary skill in the NBA.

What we know about Ntilikina is this - he projected to go around where he went, not just because the Knicks were picking them. Overall he was rated by pretty much everyone has being enough of a prospect and enough of an athlete to be worthy of being a top 10 pick. As Pelton put it, he was not a reach.

He was an 18 year-old playing in a league antithetical to the style of play you believe is the key to winning NBA championships. His true ability as an individual offensive weapon is frankly unknown to us and may not be for 4 or 5 years.

Now no one is suggesting he's Antetokounmpo. He doesn't have the same size or appear to have the same physical gifts. What KN appears to b is more advanced as a player as the same age.

But Antetokounmpo is someone whose game has grown significantly each and every season of his 4 year career. He has evolved into the dominant individual NBA force that you speak of.

Ntilikina doesn't have to become the same dominant force Antetokounmpo has becoming (and may still be evolving into) to be a very good, very worthy #8 pick and choice over Smith.

At what point do we start expecting people to know better than making predictions like these?

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:Frank was NOT a stretch.

Someone agrees with you, almost word for word.

"Though Ntilikina was hardly a reach..."

You know who that was?

Kevin Pelton.

He must have given the Knicks a good grade then yea?

You're in a huff partly because you think Pelton suggested Ntilikina was a stretch at 8. You remembered wrong, or misunderstood.

Not true at all. My knock on Pelton's comment was he regurgitated the "triangle pick" comment and followed it with an F grade. I think I was pretty clear about that. I think you just misunderstood.

Are you some kind of opinion moderator? Feel free to take a stance and add to the discussion. Would you like to comment on the article? Do you think the grade listed here is unfair? Tell me your thoughts on the article and the author's take and grades.

You are way to focused on my every word. Maybe a little less SPLAT and a little more Knicks? Join in. The water is warm.

It's often hard to have a discussion about the Knicks through the stupid noise about media bias and other irrelevant distractions.

But to answer your questions, I think Pelton didn't like the Knicks offseason, with passing on Smith for Ntilikina just one part of his evaluation. Best as i can tell, his track record has some merit.

The fact of the matter is I don't know if his grade is fair (because defining fair is a fool's errand) but mostly because I don't care if his grade his fair.

I'm a fan, I admittedly try to see the positive in the moves my favorite team makes. I'm admittedly optimistic that improvements have been made and will result in better results. I think that this year.

But at the same time I know and appreciate I've been consistently wrong when it comes to the Knicks. I can't hit the reset button every season and think I'm being more objective and everyone else is bias. I've lost that right.

So at the end of the day, I think the Knicks had a okay off season so far and can and will be better. I also can understand why others might see things differently and history suggests they might be more right than me.

you really missed the point. I agree with everything you wrote. I am very optimistic about the acquired players and promised new approach. I believe we may see some immediate results, but I wont declare it a failure as it does takes time.

I also have no problem with prognosticators predicting more failure from a franchise that succeeds in producing drama but no wins. Knicks deserve the poor opinion most have of them. Its earned. Saying the Knicks will win 32 games because of x,y and z is not "anti." Thats the point... x,y and z were offered. Pelton didnt offer x,y or z.

It was a thumbnail report that included all 30 teams in one or 2 graphs each in two parts. He has no obligation to explain his F's in X,y, and z detail anymore than he has to do the same for the A, B. C, and Ds.

What you're REALLY arguing and don't seem to understand is you don't like the premise of the piece in general - giving grades but without detailed breakdowns of the grade and that's a fair critique. It's more of a personal preference, but an understandable one.

But as a Knicks fan you're confusing that with suggesting out of his 30 entries, the Knicks one is uniquely the bias one.

The ESPN grade was written by Chad Ford. Didnt they fire him right after? Maybe he blasted the Knicks for no reason he would be writing in Pelton's space

The Knicks are one of the least respected, dysfunctional organizations in sports whose W-L/postseason performance has mirrored the dysfunction. They've earned that reputation fairly and on merit. ESPN is the largest outlet that covers professional sports in the world and they devote a lot of time to subjective analysis and personal opinion about sports.

That regard for the NY Knicks emanating from ESPN is perceived as predominantly negative, pessimistic and mocking is easily understandable.

I literally have NO idea how anyone struggles with this notion. How can anyone not get this?

So the bold... you are assuming a lot and your tone is condescending. I dont know why you get emotional about this stuff or find it so exasperating.

Just replying on a message board like you are. Can we avoid the cliche of trying to guess one another's mental state?

And sports forums are based on the premise of fans condescending to the stupidity of players, coaches, GMs, owners, officials, Commissioners, and the media.

We spend all say complaining about how dumb they all are.

The Knicks will not be fairly covered until they break the pattern of poor play combined with poor treatment of the media.

Or... maybe they've been fairly covered all along.

You seem to be suggesting if cover the Knicks negatively, you've been unfair.

History proves otherwise.

What does that mean? When it comes to offseason moves and evaluations of them one should biased reporting and in turn judge those reports accordingly. That is what I am doing with Pelton.

No, you're disagreeing with him.

That isn't the same thing as you being fair and him being unfair.

Maybe I am just biased.

That's a safe assumption.

Knickoftime wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:This is what I mean.... actual "reporting" actual information being used and displayed.

This is what I mean on Frank:

A quiet, pass-first European who had never played in the U.S., he had "Phil Jackson" and "triangle offense" written all over him. Don't hold that against him.
Was it heartening and delightful that the Knicks' No. 8 draft pick hurt his knee on the first day of practice and had to skip Summer League? No. However, when the groins and ankles of Lonzo Ball, Markelle Fultz, De'Aaron Fox and Malik Monk all staged their own revolts, Knicks fans might have taken some solace in the fact that other teams' top guards missed some summer playing time, too.
Unfortunately, many fans took little comfort in that Thursday night, when Dennis Smith Jr.—who was still available to the Knicks at No. 8—put forth an exhilarating Las Vegas Summer League performance that nearly caused thousands of people to have catastrophic heart failure.
One Smith dunk is being cheered as one of the best plays of summer league—and he didn't even make the shot. However, Knicks fans spitting vitriol at Ntilikina before seeing him play are not only being unfair, but foolish. He was not merely the available point guard prospect best-suited for the triangle offense; he was by far the best defensive point guard, one of the finest defenders at any position and a strong playmaker.
A team that simply could not stop opponents from shooting (and had a non-existent fast-break game) is desperate for guards who can smother three-ballers, provide help and yank down defensive rebounds.

As opposed to "Smith looks great. Knicks are dumb. Grade F"

Agree that you cant judge a guy by a "Missed Dunk" But Smith "looking great" does hint to his talent and that he may have been a very good pick. My argument, against Frank, has been that the pick was purely a "Triangle" pick. Which we now see made no sense. Don't believe Frank was the best player available. Specially considering Knicks just paid $18M for a player, they may have been able to pick up in the draft, that would have similar attributes.

and my retort to that is it makes zero sense. I always ask the same thing... what are those attributes? You dont have to agree Frank was the best player on the board. Nobody knows that now. Frank was NOT a stretch. He was regarded as the highest ceiling defender and was coveted by the team right behind us as well.

Summer league is not an indication of future performance. If it was the Knicks would have had a foundation bigman and Majec Lampe and Kris Dunn would not have struggled as he did his rookie season.

Everyone that says "Frank was a triangle pick" then vanishes after I ask what about Frank doesnt translate into say running the P&R? Please explain this to me.

Wait, you post an article ,and in it, the author says that he was most likely a "Triangle pick" but you question people that say the same? Perhaps you should ask B/R? Or perhaps you can explain why you think he can excel at the NBA level running the pick and roll? Don't tell me that the French league has a precedent for projecting NBA success? And just saying he is long and plays hard defense can be said about another 20 guys that were picked after Frank. It cant be your sole analysis on why you think he will be good. Just like a missed dunk cant. I hope your kidding about Frank being wanted by the Mavericks. Don't know if you saw the video of their camp when Frank was picked by the Knicks. Reminded me of New Years eve celebration. As for Dunn, you have used that before, leaving out he had an injury.

But again, we will have lots to talk about in the coming seasons. I believe Frank is another Jerian Grant and that Smith will be an excellent player(Much better than Frank)

You said YOU thought Frank was a triangle pick. I asked why or what that means. I still havent heard.

I dont have a sole analysis on why I think Frank will be good. I have lots of reasons. Just like I had lots for DSJ and Monk. If there was a sole factor that pushed the KNicks to take him then yes.. it was defense. Knicks have sucked at defense for a decade plus. DSJ projects to have a very low defensive impact. Frank projects very high. Frank played championship basketball vs. grown professional men. DSJ played sub .500 ball vs. college kids.

Or perhaps you can explain why you think he can excel at the NBA level running the pick and roll?Well he's done it in EU vs. a much higher level of competition than DSJ did... so I do have that. Dont take my word for it. There is plenty of video out there. He looks great doing it.

He was a Tringle pick. Here is the proof that will shut the case. Who was he picked by? What system does he place the most importance on?He was a Triangle pick because Phil likes big guards that can defend. He does not value their ability to create. He does not care if they are super athletic (Smith}. Does not care if they are offensive juggernauts(Smith) Wants them to be pass first guards. Problem is, the Triangle type guards are not winning Chips. The Triangle type guards are not difference makers. The Triangle guards are not guys you pick after tanking a season. A Triangle guy is not a possible franchise player. Maybe in the 80's. Not in todays NBA.

Defense pushed the pick? Really? So then why not trade down and get 2 defensive players. Sorry but an 8 pick is for a possible franchise player. Not a good defensive stopper that can be had later in the draft or free agency.

Can't say I understand why defense is considered such a secondary skill in the NBA.

What we know about Ntilikina is this - he projected to go around where he went, not just because the Knicks were picking them. Overall he was rated by pretty much everyone has being enough of a prospect and enough of an athlete to be worthy of being a top 10 pick. As Pelton put it, he was not a reach.

He was an 18 year-old playing in a league antithetical to the style of play you believe is the key to winning NBA championships. His true ability as an individual offensive weapon is frankly unknown to us and may not be for 4 or 5 years.

Now no one is suggesting he's Antetokounmpo. He doesn't have the same size or appear to have the same physical gifts. What KN appears to b is more advanced as a player as the same age.

But Antetokounmpo is someone whose game has grown significantly each and every season of his 4 year career. He has evolved into the dominant individual NBA force that you speak of.

Ntilikina doesn't have to become the same dominant force Antetokounmpo has becoming (and may still be evolving into) to be a very good, very worthy #8 pick and choice over Smith.

At what point do we start expecting people to know better than making predictions like these?

Funny. You don't like predictions? Yet your predicting Frank will be better than Smith.

When did I say "Defense was a secondary skill? The conversation was why Frank was picked. And what type of player a #8 pick should be. IMO, it should be a pick who has a chance at being a franchise player. Not a role player.
But fair enough. Can you name guys that were picked top 10 in a draft solely for defense? Can a defensive player not be chosen later in the first round or second round? See players below.

HofstraBBall wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:This is what I mean.... actual "reporting" actual information being used and displayed.

This is what I mean on Frank:

A quiet, pass-first European who had never played in the U.S., he had "Phil Jackson" and "triangle offense" written all over him. Don't hold that against him.
Was it heartening and delightful that the Knicks' No. 8 draft pick hurt his knee on the first day of practice and had to skip Summer League? No. However, when the groins and ankles of Lonzo Ball, Markelle Fultz, De'Aaron Fox and Malik Monk all staged their own revolts, Knicks fans might have taken some solace in the fact that other teams' top guards missed some summer playing time, too.
Unfortunately, many fans took little comfort in that Thursday night, when Dennis Smith Jr.—who was still available to the Knicks at No. 8—put forth an exhilarating Las Vegas Summer League performance that nearly caused thousands of people to have catastrophic heart failure.
One Smith dunk is being cheered as one of the best plays of summer league—and he didn't even make the shot. However, Knicks fans spitting vitriol at Ntilikina before seeing him play are not only being unfair, but foolish. He was not merely the available point guard prospect best-suited for the triangle offense; he was by far the best defensive point guard, one of the finest defenders at any position and a strong playmaker.
A team that simply could not stop opponents from shooting (and had a non-existent fast-break game) is desperate for guards who can smother three-ballers, provide help and yank down defensive rebounds.

As opposed to "Smith looks great. Knicks are dumb. Grade F"

Agree that you cant judge a guy by a "Missed Dunk" But Smith "looking great" does hint to his talent and that he may have been a very good pick. My argument, against Frank, has been that the pick was purely a "Triangle" pick. Which we now see made no sense. Don't believe Frank was the best player available. Specially considering Knicks just paid $18M for a player, they may have been able to pick up in the draft, that would have similar attributes.

and my retort to that is it makes zero sense. I always ask the same thing... what are those attributes? You dont have to agree Frank was the best player on the board. Nobody knows that now. Frank was NOT a stretch. He was regarded as the highest ceiling defender and was coveted by the team right behind us as well.

Summer league is not an indication of future performance. If it was the Knicks would have had a foundation bigman and Majec Lampe and Kris Dunn would not have struggled as he did his rookie season.

Everyone that says "Frank was a triangle pick" then vanishes after I ask what about Frank doesnt translate into say running the P&R? Please explain this to me.

Wait, you post an article ,and in it, the author says that he was most likely a "Triangle pick" but you question people that say the same? Perhaps you should ask B/R? Or perhaps you can explain why you think he can excel at the NBA level running the pick and roll? Don't tell me that the French league has a precedent for projecting NBA success? And just saying he is long and plays hard defense can be said about another 20 guys that were picked after Frank. It cant be your sole analysis on why you think he will be good. Just like a missed dunk cant. I hope your kidding about Frank being wanted by the Mavericks. Don't know if you saw the video of their camp when Frank was picked by the Knicks. Reminded me of New Years eve celebration. As for Dunn, you have used that before, leaving out he had an injury.

But again, we will have lots to talk about in the coming seasons. I believe Frank is another Jerian Grant and that Smith will be an excellent player(Much better than Frank)

You said YOU thought Frank was a triangle pick. I asked why or what that means. I still havent heard.

I dont have a sole analysis on why I think Frank will be good. I have lots of reasons. Just like I had lots for DSJ and Monk. If there was a sole factor that pushed the KNicks to take him then yes.. it was defense. Knicks have sucked at defense for a decade plus. DSJ projects to have a very low defensive impact. Frank projects very high. Frank played championship basketball vs. grown professional men. DSJ played sub .500 ball vs. college kids.

Or perhaps you can explain why you think he can excel at the NBA level running the pick and roll?Well he's done it in EU vs. a much higher level of competition than DSJ did... so I do have that. Dont take my word for it. There is plenty of video out there. He looks great doing it.

He was a Tringle pick. Here is the proof that will shut the case. Who was he picked by? What system does he place the most importance on?He was a Triangle pick because Phil likes big guards that can defend. He does not value their ability to create. He does not care if they are super athletic (Smith}. Does not care if they are offensive juggernauts(Smith) Wants them to be pass first guards. Problem is, the Triangle type guards are not winning Chips. The Triangle type guards are not difference makers. The Triangle guards are not guys you pick after tanking a season. A Triangle guy is not a possible franchise player. Maybe in the 80's. Not in todays NBA.

Defense pushed the pick? Really? So then why not trade down and get 2 defensive players. Sorry but an 8 pick is for a possible franchise player. Not a good defensive stopper that can be had later in the draft or free agency.

Can't say I understand why defense is considered such a secondary skill in the NBA.

What we know about Ntilikina is this - he projected to go around where he went, not just because the Knicks were picking them. Overall he was rated by pretty much everyone has being enough of a prospect and enough of an athlete to be worthy of being a top 10 pick. As Pelton put it, he was not a reach.

He was an 18 year-old playing in a league antithetical to the style of play you believe is the key to winning NBA championships. His true ability as an individual offensive weapon is frankly unknown to us and may not be for 4 or 5 years.

Now no one is suggesting he's Antetokounmpo. He doesn't have the same size or appear to have the same physical gifts. What KN appears to b is more advanced as a player as the same age.

But Antetokounmpo is someone whose game has grown significantly each and every season of his 4 year career. He has evolved into the dominant individual NBA force that you speak of.

Ntilikina doesn't have to become the same dominant force Antetokounmpo has becoming (and may still be evolving into) to be a very good, very worthy #8 pick and choice over Smith.

At what point do we start expecting people to know better than making predictions like these?

Funny. You don't like predictions? Yet your predicting Frank will be better than Smith.

I am?

Where?

Me, I don't have any idea who will ultimately be better. What I am saying and you seem to be confusing is I'm saying you or anyone else doesn't know either.

When did I say "Defense was a secondary skill? The conversation was why Frank was picked. And what type of player a #8 pick should be. IMO, it should be a pick who has a chance at being a franchise player. Not a role player.

Okay. Cool.

But fair enough. Can you name guys that were picked top 10 in a draft solely for defense?

I can't answer that because I never wrote or implied Ntilikina is solely a defensive player.

"His true ability as an individual offensive weapon is frankly unknown to us and may not be for 4 or 5 years."

You seem to be reading something into that that isn't there.

fishmike wrote:This is what I mean.... actual "reporting" actual information being used and displayed.

This is what I mean on Frank:

A quiet, pass-first European who had never played in the U.S., he had "Phil Jackson" and "triangle offense" written all over him. Don't hold that against him.
Was it heartening and delightful that the Knicks' No. 8 draft pick hurt his knee on the first day of practice and had to skip Summer League? No. However, when the groins and ankles of Lonzo Ball, Markelle Fultz, De'Aaron Fox and Malik Monk all staged their own revolts, Knicks fans might have taken some solace in the fact that other teams' top guards missed some summer playing time, too.
Unfortunately, many fans took little comfort in that Thursday night, when Dennis Smith Jr.—who was still available to the Knicks at No. 8—put forth an exhilarating Las Vegas Summer League performance that nearly caused thousands of people to have catastrophic heart failure.
One Smith dunk is being cheered as one of the best plays of summer league—and he didn't even make the shot. However, Knicks fans spitting vitriol at Ntilikina before seeing him play are not only being unfair, but foolish. He was not merely the available point guard prospect best-suited for the triangle offense; he was by far the best defensive point guard, one of the finest defenders at any position and a strong playmaker.
A team that simply could not stop opponents from shooting (and had a non-existent fast-break game) is desperate for guards who can smother three-ballers, provide help and yank down defensive rebounds.

As opposed to "Smith looks great. Knicks are dumb. Grade F"

couldn't agree more fish. very well said.

its amazing to me how the word triangle being associated with a player has turned into such a horrible thing. when i think of a triangle player, i think of a guy who is viewed as someone who is skillful and knows the game. frank being a triangle player means he can pass, move without the ball and play defense. but by the way, hes pretty damn athletic and SEEMS to be super motivated. if we see him knocking down jumpers come the regular season, ill take triangle players all day, every day.