Knickoftime wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Knicks picked up the option on Billups expiring in April and then amnestied him in Dec. When if they saved the amnesty for Amare's potential knees failing and let Billups walk as a FA. They could have freed up close to 40 mil in cap space and built a team that could have lasted for 5 years.

The further we get away from that year, the more urban legends start to build around the decisions made.

For one, Stat just completed the first year of his contract ... and he was very good. The idea of standing pat 'just in case' is the kind of argument fans make - it's ridiculously impractical.

Rightly or wrongly, they got what they for thought at the time were two all-star players.

The Knick's had a glaring need for a defensive stopper at center and they got one. They went for it instead of hedging their bets for year's down the line 'just in case.'

It did not work - no question, but what they did and why they did it was perfectly reasonable.

In most cases I would agree with you. But signing Amare after he couldnt get insurance on his knees. After doctors claimed he had 80 yr old man knees. After Suns would only offer 60mil. There was enough info to know at the time of the signing that he was a huge injury risk. So if your surprised that he got injured then you just werent payimg attention. Billups was an expiring contract not a player with 3 yrs left. The failure to take a step back and look at bigger picture is one of the reasons the Knicks have sucked for 15 years.

Knickoftime wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Knicks picked up the option on Billups expiring in April and then amnestied him in Dec. When if they saved the amnesty for Amare's potential knees failing and let Billups walk as a FA. They could have freed up close to 40 mil in cap space and built a team that could have lasted for 5 years.

The further we get away from that year, the more urban legends start to build around the decisions made.

For one, Stat just completed the first year of his contract ... and he was very good. The idea of standing pat 'just in case' is the kind of argument fans make - it's ridiculously impractical.

Rightly or wrongly, they got what they for thought at the time were two all-star players.

The Knick's had a glaring need for a defensive stopper at center and they got one. They went for it instead of hedging their bets for year's down the line 'just in case.'

It did not work - no question, but what they did and why they did it was perfectly reasonable.

In most cases I would agree with you. But signing Amare after he couldnt get insurance on his knees. After doctors claimed he had 80 yr old man knees. After Suns would only offer 60mil. There was enough info to know at the time of the signing that he was a huge injury risk. So if your surprised that he got injured then you just werent payimg attention. Billups was an expiring contract not a player with 3 yrs left. The failure to take a step back and look at bigger picture is one of the reasons the Knicks have sucked for 15 years.

What you're really talking about is signing Amar'e in the first place. If you want to label that a mistake, that's a fair argument to make.

But you don't do that and THEN hedge your bets too. It's one or the other. Go for it or not. Knicks went for it in 2011-2012.

Once they traded for Melo & Billups that changed a lot. Then the lockout came which changed more. Now you have Melo, Billups expiring, and an amnesty in their pocket. They amnestied a needed productive point guard(17.5pts 5.5ast) with an expiring contract for a defensive center to complete a front court of 3 players that don't pass much. Wasn't even like they amnestied dead weight to drastically upgrade the team. All they did was use their amnesty to weaken one position and strengthen another.

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:They are asking for two first round picks on top of a player or group of players that can play for them.
Sort of like what we were for Kristaps.
Can't blame them, he is their KP for them. Drafted franchise level talent.

I don't think teams will pay up that much.
To make the deal today, it would take Melo plus two first round picks.
Could we get an additional first round pick using Lee to a third team? Maybe.
If we really pushed, I think we could get it done.
Melo, 2018 pick (protected top 10, top 7 for 2019, top 5 for 2020) and another late first round pick from 2018 by sending Lee to a playoff contender.

I think the cost is 2 low restriction # 1s. A willy g and Carmello -- that's what Riley intimated

Heat said no to drag ic and winslow

So an all NBA rookie player (which as might as well count as a lottery pick) and potentially 2 more lottery picks? If essentially 3 potential lottery picks and soon $200 mil is the cost to get Kyrie and keep him here long-term, that's insane. Obviously it appears the Knicks are saying no to whatever Cleveland wants right now. So that's a good thing.

Knicks aren't in desperation mode. They still have the Houston Deal if the Cavs don't play ball. The Cavs are the ones not wanting to go into camp with a huge controversy on their hands. Knicks just need to stay patient at this point.

lol

Really,.... if there was a Houston deal it would have been made already. Once they sign session, the writing was on the wall, they had every intentions on getting a vet pg in any trade for melo.

You know things.
One could speculate there is a deal that does to have a PG to our liking and perhaps Lee or even Baker might be included in some fashion.
But you know things.....Right?

newyorknewyork wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Knicks picked up the option on Billups expiring in April and then amnestied him in Dec. When if they saved the amnesty for Amare's potential knees failing and let Billups walk as a FA. They could have freed up close to 40 mil in cap space and built a team that could have lasted for 5 years.

The further we get away from that year, the more urban legends start to build around the decisions made.

For one, Stat just completed the first year of his contract ... and he was very good. The idea of standing pat 'just in case' is the kind of argument fans make - it's ridiculously impractical.

Rightly or wrongly, they got what they for thought at the time were two all-star players.

The Knick's had a glaring need for a defensive stopper at center and they got one. They went for it instead of hedging their bets for year's down the line 'just in case.'

It did not work - no question, but what they did and why they did it was perfectly reasonable.

In most cases I would agree with you. But signing Amare after he couldnt get insurance on his knees. After doctors claimed he had 80 yr old man knees. After Suns would only offer 60mil. There was enough info to know at the time of the signing that he was a huge injury risk. So if your surprised that he got injured then you just werent payimg attention. Billups was an expiring contract not a player with 3 yrs left. The failure to take a step back and look at bigger picture is one of the reasons the Knicks have sucked for 15 years.

What you're really talking about is signing Amar'e in the first place. If you want to label that a mistake, that's a fair argument to make.

But you don't do that and THEN hedge your bets too. It's one or the other. Go for it or not. Knicks went for it in 2011-2012.

Once they traded for Melo & Billups that changed a lot. Then the lockout came which changed more. Now you have Melo, Billups expiring, and an amnesty in their pocket. They amnestied a needed productive point guard(17.5pts 5.5ast) with an expiring contract for a defensive center to complete a front court of 3 players that don't pass much. Wasn't even like they amnestied dead weight to drastically upgrade the team. All they did was use their amnesty to weaken one position and strengthen another.

At the time the thought was to beat the heat, you had to do it in the front court. Chandler excelled at the role they brought him in for.

Team building is a process. The Knicks calculated stat would be healthy, and that was their mistake. If in 2013-2014, if they could count on a healthy Chandler and a healthy Stat in the postseason, they could have made run at the Heat, which they were designed to do.

I don't blame them for going for it and not sitting on amnesty for a player they just acquired.

Nalod wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Knicks picked up the option on Billups expiring in April and then amnestied him in Dec. When if they saved the amnesty for Amare's potential knees failing and let Billups walk as a FA. They could have freed up close to 40 mil in cap space and built a team that could have lasted for 5 years.

The further we get away from that year, the more urban legends start to build around the decisions made.

For one, Stat just completed the first year of his contract ... and he was very good. The idea of standing pat 'just in case' is the kind of argument fans make - it's ridiculously impractical.

Rightly or wrongly, they got what they for thought at the time were two all-star players.

The Knick's had a glaring need for a defensive stopper at center and they got one. They went for it instead of hedging their bets for year's down the line 'just in case.'

It did not work - no question, but what they did and why they did it was perfectly reasonable.

In most cases I would agree with you. But signing Amare after he couldnt get insurance on his knees. After doctors claimed he had 80 yr old man knees. After Suns would only offer 60mil. There was enough info to know at the time of the signing that he was a huge injury risk. So if your surprised that he got injured then you just werent payimg attention. Billups was an expiring contract not a player with 3 yrs left. The failure to take a step back and look at bigger picture is one of the reasons the Knicks have sucked for 15 years.

What you're really talking about is signing Amar'e in the first place. If you want to label that a mistake, that's a fair argument to make.

But you don't do that and THEN hedge your bets too. It's one or the other. Go for it or not. Knicks went for it in 2011-2012.

Once they traded for Melo & Billups that changed a lot. Then the lockout came which changed more. Now you have Melo, Billups expiring, and an amnesty in their pocket. They amnestied a needed productive point guard(17.5pts 5.5ast) with an expiring contract for a defensive center to complete a front court of 3 players that don't pass much. Wasn't even like they amnestied dead weight to drastically upgrade the team. All they did was use their amnesty to weaken one position and strengthen another.

At the time the thought was to beat the heat, you had to do it in the front court. Chandler excelled at the role they brought him in for.

Team building is a process. The Knicks calculated stat would be healthy, and that was their mistake. If in 2013-2014, if they could count on a healthy Chandler and a healthy Stat in the postseason, they could have made run at the Heat, which they were designed to do.

I don't blame them for going for it and not sitting on amnesty for a player they just acquired.

I recall "Grunwald Exec of the year!!!" for the Billups buy out and Tyson signing!!!!
This is 6 years ago, and I think Billups made 14mil, and Tyson the same.
The genius was Knicks ability to pay 28mil for that season basically for Tyson!!
BTW, that was a lot of money then.
It was a very smooth move, Amare, Melo and Tyson up front, on paper was really nice.
Good idea, just didn't really add up.
Thats the knicks, good ideas at the time at there is alway a risk we can see. Bad luck? Karma? Stupidity? All the above?
Amare for 4 years would have made some sense. The PHX doctors were spot on with the three year projection. By year 4 the man was bathing in red wine. By year 5 he was circumcised and talking Yiddish!!

As I say, team-building is a process. They made the move knowing they were still short at point guard. A really good team is a combination of moves, health and luck (not to mention good coaching), they didn't get the latter two.

If they had gotten at any one time, a vet point guard like Kidd to run the show with a healthy stat, Chandler, and melo, they might have given the heat a series.

It didn't happen, that's professional sports.

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:They are asking for two first round picks on top of a player or group of players that can play for them.
Sort of like what we were for Kristaps.
Can't blame them, he is their KP for them. Drafted franchise level talent.

I don't think teams will pay up that much.
To make the deal today, it would take Melo plus two first round picks.
Could we get an additional first round pick using Lee to a third team? Maybe.
If we really pushed, I think we could get it done.
Melo, 2018 pick (protected top 10, top 7 for 2019, top 5 for 2020) and another late first round pick from 2018 by sending Lee to a playoff contender.

I think the cost is 2 low restriction # 1s. A willy g and Carmello -- that's what Riley intimated

Heat said no to drag ic and winslow

So an all NBA rookie player (which as might as well count as a lottery pick) and potentially 2 more lottery picks? If essentially 3 potential lottery picks and soon $200 mil is the cost to get Kyrie and keep him here long-term, that's insane. Obviously it appears the Knicks are saying no to whatever Cleveland wants right now. So that's a good thing.

Knicks aren't in desperation mode. They still have the Houston Deal if the Cavs don't play ball. The Cavs are the ones not wanting to go into camp with a huge controversy on their hands. Knicks just need to stay patient at this point.

lol

Really,.... if there was a Houston deal it would have been made already. Once they sign session, the writing was on the wall, they had every intentions on getting a vet pg in any trade for melo.

You know things.
One could speculate there is a deal that does to have a PG to our liking and perhaps Lee or even Baker might be included in some fashion.
But you know things.....Right?

It's been a month already, almost every team is capped out, they have more than likely scoured the league for a Anderson taker. There is no team(western conference) that's going to help facilitate a trade to help houston become some what of a power house, while taking on a 20 mill contract that doesn't make any team marginally better.

Unless Melo adds more teams to his list(and there's no indication he will) what exactly do you think is going to happen.

Just because you don't read it, does not mean things are not discussed or in motion. You and I have no idea what is currently going on.
You might be entirely correct but its not as if you have any specific knowledge other that what the rest of us know.
Because as you say most teams have filled out rosters thru the draft and Free agent signings there is little wiggle room. Free agents can't move until december but rookies can.
We have yet to sign Baker. Curious.
We are guard heavy. Curious.
We are 4-5 heavy. Curious.
Is THjr a 3? Curious.
Kyrie is out there. Curious.
Melo is out there. Curious.
Boston lurks with the ability to win now. Curious. (I want Tatum!!!!)
Cav's are just settling their front office down. Curious.
There is a two week sort of vacations cooling off period most front office's take after a busy summer.
My guess is you'll see something happen soon but if not, then after labor day. Im just guessing here, I don't know a thing other than apply my logic.

Its wildly entertaining when we do this!!!!!

Unless Dolan sweeps in (like he did with the melo situation) it's hard to see mills or perry or any team for the matter, give the cavs close to what the want.

Knickoftime wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Knicks picked up the option on Billups expiring in April and then amnestied him in Dec. When if they saved the amnesty for Amare's potential knees failing and let Billups walk as a FA. They could have freed up close to 40 mil in cap space and built a team that could have lasted for 5 years.

The further we get away from that year, the more urban legends start to build around the decisions made.

For one, Stat just completed the first year of his contract ... and he was very good. The idea of standing pat 'just in case' is the kind of argument fans make - it's ridiculously impractical.

Rightly or wrongly, they got what they for thought at the time were two all-star players.

The Knick's had a glaring need for a defensive stopper at center and they got one. They went for it instead of hedging their bets for year's down the line 'just in case.'

It did not work - no question, but what they did and why they did it was perfectly reasonable.

In most cases I would agree with you. But signing Amare after he couldnt get insurance on his knees. After doctors claimed he had 80 yr old man knees. After Suns would only offer 60mil. There was enough info to know at the time of the signing that he was a huge injury risk. So if your surprised that he got injured then you just werent payimg attention. Billups was an expiring contract not a player with 3 yrs left. The failure to take a step back and look at bigger picture is one of the reasons the Knicks have sucked for 15 years.

What you're really talking about is signing Amar'e in the first place. If you want to label that a mistake, that's a fair argument to make.

But you don't do that and THEN hedge your bets too. It's one or the other. Go for it or not. Knicks went for it in 2011-2012.

Once they traded for Melo & Billups that changed a lot. Then the lockout came which changed more. Now you have Melo, Billups expiring, and an amnesty in their pocket. They amnestied a needed productive point guard(17.5pts 5.5ast) with an expiring contract for a defensive center to complete a front court of 3 players that don't pass much. Wasn't even like they amnestied dead weight to drastically upgrade the team. All they did was use their amnesty to weaken one position and strengthen another.

At the time the thought was to beat the heat, you had to do it in the front court. Chandler excelled at the role they brought him in for.

Team building is a process. The Knicks calculated stat would be healthy, and that was their mistake. If in 2013-2014, if they could count on a healthy Chandler and a healthy Stat in the postseason, they could have made run at the Heat, which they were designed to do.

I don't blame them for going for it and not sitting on amnesty for a player they just acquired.

That wasn't team building. That was just collecting names. I didn't even get into the lack of fit between Melo and Amare due to them being 2 iso scorers who aren't known for great defense or creating offense for others. Amare also had all his best seasons playing Center for MDA while being surrounded by shooters with the Knicks and with the Suns. Same for Tyson having his best season playing with stretch 4s of Dirk and Melo. Melo and Amare both had the most success in their careers playing with a top quality PG. Replacing Amare with Tyson over Billups would have been proper team building. Tyson, Amare, Melo front court is poor defense at the forward positions, limited spacing, and limited ball movement. Tyson's defensive impact wouldn't cover for those things. In terms of team building. Would have been better just to play Amare at Center if they planned on keeping him. Target a 3 & D forward, And a quality PG, could have a role playing big get 20mins a game to offer the big lineup option. But I don't even knock the Knicks at that time for not thinking about it on that level. As it was a learning experience for Dolan and Mills and many of us fans as well.

They could have made a run at the Heat regardless. They could have let Billups expire and signed a FA to compete with the Heat without using the amnesty. Amnestying Billups and all he brought to the table from production to credibility and leadership and an expiring contract wasn't worth using the amnesty on. The results of all this wasn't due to bad luck. It was due to poor management. From team building down to wasting assets.